Monster Champion Feedback

[Blackheartox]

Has anyone actually tried old-school cc on this stuff? Perhaps that is the answer to the problem. Letting your cc party member lead and tactically deal with the battle field before diving in head-first.

Cc works perefectly fine.
To fine imo, you dont even notice champs with good cc.
And most builds have in built cc nowadays anyways, so i dont see a issue to be perfectly honest

[Blackheartox]

CC works preposterously well - if you have better than average DC.

Granted Charms don't last in Epics so well but in Heroic you can Charm A Super-Champ to take down the Boss. Really. Try it.

Champions generally seem to get stuck in webs just fine Heroic or Epic.

CC wizard or Bard will do fine with Champs, even if they are pretty new. Maybe they can't just rely on basting everything now.

A 1st lif Rogue? Ahhh... dunno about that.

But excellent advice you offer, if someone is new and struggling try Bard or Wiz maybe.

A first life rogue can dualwield and twist in balanced attacks.
With stacked killer and haste boost he will cc champs just fine.
ITs all about tactics people, just adapt to it alrdy.
Its not that hard

[BDog77]

I read a lot of post about this. Base/casual players don't like Champions, Elitist like them.

Untrue.

My dislike for them has nothing whatsoever to do with whether I find them challenging or not (as a point of fact, I do not find them challenging, and expect to not change my approach to quests one bit because of them, as I have not so far).

I have been fairly clear ITT as to why I don't like this current implementation of them.

[phillymiket]

A first life rogue can dualwield and twist in balanced attacks.
With stacked killer and haste boost he will cc champs just fine.
ITs all about tactics people, just adapt to it alrdy.
Its not that hard

How's a first life toon going to twist in anything?

Your talking about a capped toon who has already farmed destinies!

:-D

That person will be fine.

That's not the issue (or at least not mine)

I'm talking about a person who is running up the levels for the first time.

A new player.

You know, the life blood of any game that keeps the thing from withering and falling off the video game tree?

For them there is now the choice of soloing Normal alone the majority of the time or... somehow instantly getting the Meta-Knowledge to build for tactics... or get lucky and find a guild right off the boat... or get frustrated and leave the game.

Everyone who isn't running up their first few lives, anyone who has already worked on your destinies, anyone with a PL... Yeah, get over it and deal.

But I really want to stick up a sign in Korthos that says "Please, please give it a chance!" for all the people who hop in "Miserys Peak" Elite with two Zerging Vets who zerg ahead leaving mobs in their wake only to be cap'ped a dozen times by a Champion Fruit Fly.

Welcome to DDO! :-D

[Blackheartox]

How's a first life toon going to twist in anything?

Your talking about a capped toon who has already farmed destinies!

:-D

That person will be fine.

That's not the issue (or at least not mine)

I'm talking about a person who is running up the levels for the first time.

A new player.

You know, the life blood of any game that keeps the thing from withering and falling off the video game tree?

For them there is now the choice of soloing Normal alone the majority of the time or... somehow instantly getting the Meta-Knowledge to build for tactics... or get lucky and find a guild right off the boat... or get frustrated and leave the game.

Everyone who isn't running up their first few lives, anyone who has already worked on your destinies, anyone with a PL... Yeah, get over it and deal.

But I really want to stick up a sign in Korthos that says "Please, please give it a chance!" for all the people who hop in "Miserys Peak" Elite with two Zerging Vets who zerg ahead leaving mobs in their wake only to be cap'ped a dozen times by a Champion Fruit Fly.

Welcome to DDO! :-D

Ok question, for epic content.

IF you expect a first life rogue, for epic level, to run at epic elite quests with no capped destiny and no twists and be super useful and be able to handle champs like a pro, isnt that fail in design in content in the game?
The issue we vets have with, aka no challenge in the game.
See why we complain?
Because people expect a first lifer with no destenies to be able to do in epic elite content just fine and good.
That should not happen, never ever and not even ever after never.
You need to put some effort to be able to handle that content.


In good old days that effort took months or years for some.
Now you can reduce that effort to weeks.
Example prior to this update i wanted to bring a first lifer palie and solo stuff like wgu and most horns on ee.
Issue why i didnt do it is,for what purpose?
I would prove nothing to noone since people dont care that the hardest difficulty is easy, they want it even easier then it is.

Also im having a blast with champs, actually almost dying felt so refreshing in this game

As i suggested alrdy, simplest method for this is to remove champs from heroic content, keep heroic as learning content.
But keep the champs in epic content, in epic hard and same rate in epic elite.
Vets win, new players win, win win for all.
Noone should complain if its done that way.

[phillymiket]

Ok question, for epic content.

IF you expect a first life rogue, for epic level, to run at epic elite quests with no capped destiny and no twists and be super useful and be able to handle champs like a pro, isnt that fail in design in content in the game?
The issue we vets have with, aka no challenge in the game.
See why we complain?
Because people expect a first lifer with no destenies to be able to do in epic elite content just fine and good.
That should not happen, never ever and not even ever after never.
You need to put some effort to be able to handle that content.


In good old days that effort took months or years for some.
Now you can reduce that effort to weeks.
Example prior to this update i wanted to bring a first lifer palie and solo stuff like wgu and most horns on ee.
Issue why i didnt do it is,for what purpose?
I would prove nothing to noone since people dont care that the hardest difficulty is easy, they want it even easier then it is.

Also im having a blast with champs, actually almost dying felt so refreshing in this game

As i suggested alrdy, simplest method for this is to remove champs from heroic content, keep heroic as learning content.
But keep the champs in epic content, in epic hard and same rate in epic elite.
Vets win, new players win, win win for all.
Noone should complain if its done that way.

Ah Ok.

So many people who want so many different things in this thread. It's confusing.

:-)

I like Champions, myself.

I'm fine with them in Epic Content.

What I want is...

- No Champions before level 12 (to give new people a chance to get into the game and maybe even stick around and buy a shared bank and pack or two)

- No Heroic Hard Champions (to allow new people a reasonable chance to group in DDO)

- Maybe a pony or a monster truck.

Epic is Epic.

If a new player can't handle Epic then farm a Heart and TR. Come back stronger.

There is options after level 20.

No options for the new guy wandering around the harbor in Rusty Chainmail looking for a reason to like DDO and finding no groups, no hope, no reason.

[Hafeal]

Champions in Invaders tonight on HH and HE were ... difficult, to say the least. The short man group I was in could not complete - so - in terms of 'challenge' it was there, but, too much and needs refinement.

Crowns would spawn 3+ at a time, at both difficulties. We could kill them and get no xp, no loot.

Sure wish that had been through the PC.

[Sehenry03]

Ok question, for epic content.

IF you expect a first life rogue, for epic level, to run at epic elite quests with no capped destiny and no twists and be super useful and be able to handle champs like a pro, isnt that fail in design in content in the game?
The issue we vets have with, aka no challenge in the game.
See why we complain?
Because people expect a first lifer with no destenies to be able to do in epic elite content just fine and good.
That should not happen, never ever and not even ever after never.
You need to put some effort to be able to handle that content.


In good old days that effort took months or years for some.
Now you can reduce that effort to weeks.
Example prior to this update i wanted to bring a first lifer palie and solo stuff like wgu and most horns on ee.
Issue why i didnt do it is,for what purpose?
I would prove nothing to noone since people dont care that the hardest difficulty is easy, they want it even easier then it is.

Also im having a blast with champs, actually almost dying felt so refreshing in this game

As i suggested alrdy, simplest method for this is to remove champs from heroic content, keep heroic as learning content.
But keep the champs in epic content, in epic hard and same rate in epic elite.
Vets win, new players win, win win for all.
Noone should complain if its done that way.

Well no one SHOULD complain. Those who hate champions because it means the end of easy mode WILL complain no matter what. I am all for your idea and I think it makes perfect sense.

Those that hate champions will WHINE that it still ruins EE content that they want to solo without having high end gear. They want to solo with basic gear and little skill because they feel entitled. Since they spend money on the game they feel they are OWED this.

Those that live in the real world might take a little more logical and fair approach.

EE content should be for the HIGHEST END PLAYERS. Everyone else should be fine with EN or EH if they are well geared and ready for this...but it is called EPIC levels for a reason. Not easy mode Hello Kitty quests. WoW went easy mode after Wrath of the Lich king and started to lose a LOT of playerbase because of it and had TONS of complaints. Cataclysm is going back to the roots of vanilla WoW and they are getting some of the older playerbase back.

DDO needs to stop catering to easy mode people.

Now I am not saying Champions can't use a rework...I am fine with it. I do feel Champions are a good thing though and I think they should add a big challenge...a HUGE challenge to Elite content. Get rid of the 4-6k instakills at epic content and the 1100+ in heroic content and actually go through ALL mobs that can be Champions and fix them. Obviously they took a short cut and did a large champion fix to all mobs without regard to the consequences.

I am NOT an elitist with the best gear but i can still handle all the HE quests with champions and some of the EE with champions. Those I can't I do on EH. Am I upset? No. If I want favor I will get a few friends and run it with help.

[Archangel666]

I can't help but notice that the most common response to the suggestion that Champions be made optional with a checkbox seems to be that nobody would check the box and face the Champions.

Guys? If a system is designed in such a way that given the choice people will choose not to use it, then that system is a bad one.

A good system would be one where people want to use it, people don't need to be forced to use a good system.

[Hilltrot]

It is optional to run Elite. Champions just need to give more XP, they already have the potential to drop more loot.

This is the most stupid thing I have ever heard.

It is not optional to run on Elite.

Lemme repeat that, so you can clear the wax from your ears, IT IS NOT OPTIONAL TO RUN ON ELITE.

When the Normal, Hard, Elite stupidity the developers added to the game came around, I knew that it was the stupidest mistake. Before the level cap budged from 10, we fell off of the d20, and the game balance was completely destroyed. Everyone ran around in pajamas and nothing even resembled D&D.

The only thing that changed is Elite became to the New Normal. This got worse when they added elite streaks and soon you couldn't even pug on something other than elite. So, you had to change your entire build to support this ELITE monstrosity they created. You made sure all your characters had evasion and high reflex saves. You boosted your fortification and made yourself into a huge hit point bag.

You had to cave in and make your characters this way or, well, not play.

To make this even worse, this stupidity was only applied on Elite and Hard.

So basically you have the following difficulties.

1. ELITE - You have a good chance of getting a champion combination that will kill you "instantly". You now have to use more time and consumables to complete your adventure. THE ACTUAL DIFFICULTY HASN'T CHANGED.

2. Hard - The chance of getting a champion combination that will kill you "instantly" is less likely. THE ACTUAL DIFFICULTY HASN'T CHANGED.

3. Normal - Unless the adventure is unusual or you aren't playing with ship buffs, this is incredibly easy.

The difficulty level hasn't changed, they've just added this random chance that the dungeon will fail and you'll have to start again.

What's even worse is that they screwed ALL of the content. They didn't just do it to the dungeons they introduced, to see what people thought, they did it to EVERYTHING. What's even more stupid, they don't want to hear comments about the new dungeons because they already know they are broke.

STUPID

[Hilltrot]

CC works preposterously well - if you have better than average DC.

Granted Charms don't last in Epics so well but in Heroic you can Charm A Super-Champ to take down the Boss. Really. Try it.

Champions generally seem to get stuck in webs just fine Heroic or Epic.

CC wizard or Bard will do fine with Champs, even if they are pretty new. Maybe they can't just rely on basting everything now.

A 1st lif Rogue? Ahhh... dunno about that.

But excellent advice you offer, if someone is new and struggling try Bard or Wiz maybe.

We've now got the start of the new builds everyone will have to take. . . . ughh

[phillymiket]

We've now got the start of the new builds everyone will have to take. . . . ughh

Only for Heroic TR train ;-)

For 1-20, as things stand, you could create "Champ Charm Chumps" all the way through a life on E super-fast in my estimation.

Charms are kinda borked in Epic, unless I'm mistaken, so it's little help there.

Crown monsters are probably fun when you play with past lives and all the bonuses you can have...<snip>...Turbine, please just add a box to thick yes/no for crown mobs at the instance begining.

^^^best case for why this needs adjustment i've heard. (guy below me a few posts0

Casual - Paper targets.
Normal - Stupid Easy
Hard, Elite - Ganked by Champions.

Nice offering we have for Doucefeuille and his mate. "Well considered" change.

I like how most people write the same thing from multiple fresh new accounts they created.
Posts 1, join date 2014.

love that.

Yes but hypothetically suppose such a person existed and... ah...

(nevermind)

/Hides in shadows

[Aletys]

I know you probably added this new champion code across the board for all dungeons, but the zombies that you beat down for meat in the quest Tomb of the Tormented don't need to continuously spring back up as champions. Also, down below in the maze, the worgs and carcass eaters don't need to be champions either. One is just going to spend more time with their sonic wand or blasting rune arm with these guys until they're dead and out of the way of the maze rat. This rat maze quest is difficult enough as is, please consider some exceptions to champions in future updates.

Oh, my. A bad quest mechanic, in one of the most hated quests in the game, & they actually made it worse. Ok, crossing that quest off my list. This is just simply ridiculous.

I read a lot of post about this. Base/casual players don't like Champions, Elitist like them.

Elitist were asking for more challenge and Devs added randomize champions that can instakill you; when uber players will be used to champions and demmand more challenges, Devs will add random traps? or better, a big, really big book that fall from the sky and instakills you, with "I'm the DM!" on the cover... seriously, where is the imagination and creativity?

The fact is, as other people had said, we have to spent more time to get the same xp, the same trash loot and no fun at all (new things are shinnings, but will fade out quickly)

I understand that some players want more challenge, but champions will be only a challenge for a short time, like the first time Epic Elite was introduced, so that's isn't a good solution, only a quick fix with no creativity at all; want more challenge? do better content.

So please, add a check box to allow Elitist player get what they asked and allow the rest of us the same "easy" challenges that we enjoy. Of course, Champion checkbox must bring extra chest and more xp.

This. YES! Completely agree.

I'd fix champions this way:

- give them all some small universal bonus (like +2 to all abilities)
- and give them one random big bonus
- show crown color depending on which main bonus they have

A list of big bonuses (subject to opinions/discussion):
- immunity to all spells
- immunity to ranged attacks
- immunity to slashing (yes, just slashing)
- Deathward and 200% fortification and immunity to crowd control (including disco/web/stun/paralyze/even slow/etc)
- +300% hp (yes, even that, but it's just one bonus, and it's a perfect target for instakillers)
- +200% dmg (yes, some of them has to be dangerous)

The idea for immunities is that it might encourage grouping.

Immunity to all spells? Immunity to ranged attacks? Immunity to all CC? Why not immunity to all melee attacks while you're at it? Oh, you must play melee's. This would not encourage grouping, just the opposite. Why take a ranged or spellcaster with you when they are most likely going to be useless? This is utter nonsense.

[lakewoodgames]

I can't help but notice that the most common response to the suggestion that Champions be made optional with a checkbox seems to be that nobody would check the box and face the Champions.

Guys? If a system is designed in such a way that given the choice people will choose not to use it, then that system is a bad one.

A good system would be one where people want to use it, people don't need to be forced to use a good system.

I would agree with this.

Please make it optional I DON'T want it. I don't think it should be forced on me because a few people think it should be forced on everyone or they will refuse to run it.

[doucefeuille]

Crown monsters are probably fun when you play with past lives and all the bonuses you can have when you played since many years, when you use the cash-shop, when you have severals hours a day to play, when you know by hart all the instances, when you play with mates you know since a long time and have the same connection timetable, when you play with ship buff etc.

I understand, you like, you love, crown mob. the game was too easy for you with all your power.

But when you do not have all that, you cannot play with crown mobs.
The elite mode was just perfect for who search challenge that can be reached without all your power.

I am an very old player, I began with the beta and since I used to play elite mode at my toon level with just one mate, without past life, in an unknown instance, without ship buff, rez cake etc. for the challenge.
I am used to paying attention to the items, the enhancements, the PPr, RD, resist and so on. I am used to play with crowd controls.
So do not tell me to go playing "my level" in normal mode or change my toon for the elite! I do not have your bonuses, so do not think I am a weak or I do not know how to play because you do not unterstand my playing way.

At this time I am paying the same bill than you, so my voice weights just as much as yours.

Normal mode is too easy, there is no challenge. And adding crown mob in normal mode do not offer the challenge an elite mode without crown mob can afford. In DDO there is not only bashing mobs, there is also competences to use, spells to counter, traps to find and disable, escort to bring in safe place, technical bosses etc. An endless-hp mob, or an insta-kill mob is NOT a challenge.

Also if the game can be only played in normal mode for new players, they would not progress in favor and they will need several toons to reach the favor goal, they would progress slower in xp and they will need more time to reach the past-life etc. There is so much differences between new toons and past-lifes toons, new players and long established players. Letting the newbies only going in normal instances just would make harder the way to advance in the game.

What is the solution? going to the cash shop to buy xp, veteran, past lifes? is DDO become a pay-to-win game?

Ok, YOU, you like, you love, the crown mob. I understand.
But I HATE them. You do not understand? Never mind, I can mannage without your respect.

Turbine, please just add a box to thick yes/no for crown mobs at the instance begining.

[Ayseifn]

How often does this happen? A number approaching 0 sound about right?

No idea, been pugging a lot of EEs since U24 and usually in each group there was at least one first lifer.

[Blackheartox]

I like how most people write the same thing from multiple fresh new accounts they created.
Posts 1, join date 2014.

love that..


Changes like this were never talked about, they were pushed onto community and few that bother enough just make 20-30 accounts and push their own opinion onto devs and that proudeces bad desings and bad conclussion to wonderful mechanics.

Devs, be careful what you do with ch monsters.
This will drive away your vet players if you mess this up.
You should balance it in heroic by either removing or whatever great idea you guys have.
For epic, this brings fresh air.

IF you mess this up, trust me, you will lose he last bit of respect you have from vets.
Dont listen to the new account spammers who think they own the game.
Provide feedback how you guys want to push this so that we can discuss and come to a conclussion where everyone is happy.
My simple idea is remove from heroic keep in epic.
No checkbox or whatever.
Maybe reduce spawn rate in eh and perfect.

[J-mann]

Oh, my. A bad quest mechanic, in one of the most hated quests in the game, & they actually made it worse. Ok, crossing that quest off my list. This is just simply ridiculous.



This. YES! Completely agree.



Immunity to all spells? Immunity to ranged attacks? Immunity to all CC? Why not immunity to all melee attacks while you're at it? Oh, you must play melee's. This would not encourage grouping, just the opposite. Why take a ranged or spellcaster with you when they are most likely going to be useless? This is utter nonsense.

So the current implementation with melee taking 250-700 damage a swing (had a scorp in ee von 3 doing 600+ a swing) is ok? Currently champs have huge amounts of punishment for melee and oh so terribly little for ranged. So far my way of "adjusting" to champs has been to move from my 2h pally back to my shuri chucker, cause my shuri chucker doesnt care how much the mobs hit for he just doesnt take any hits.

[Archangel666]

No checkbox or whatever.

Simple question for you. Why not?

[Aelonwy]

Well no one SHOULD complain.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

That being said, Champions on heroic elite as they appear on heroic hard is probably acceptable. As they appear on heroic hard, I would say they need to be tuned down just a tad both in frequency and in power.

My sample size is small, my husband and I ran Reign of Madness chain today all on heroic hard. We are average to casual players with reasonably good twink gear but no greensteel, we were on 2nd life characters, with no epic past lives.

Acute Delirium: 16 champions out of 71 kills
Sane Asylum: 19 champions out of 88 kills
Lord of Stone: 19 champions out of 117 kills
Lord of Eyes: 31 champions out of 115 kills

This does not reflect 10%. Out of the four quests, 5 orange names where championed, none dropped an extra chest.
Championed beholder orange names were problematic. I was oneshot killed once during these quests, I did not examine logs to see what happened but it was due to a championed caster.
I did have deathward but no evasion or MRR, I'm playing a Warforged Sorc with over 200% fort.

Earlier in the day I ran two quests on heroic hard with my son on a different alt. We ran Fathom the Depths, and Into the Deep for Kundarak bank favor for him. We were both over level, both well geared, both had evasion and ship buffs. We did not have too much trouble in Fathom the Depths although neither the Water Elementals, nor any Sauhaugin casters were championed and I think had we run into that we might have had problems. However, upon entering Into the Deep we ran into a series of Sauhaugin champions that one shot me to death 3 times. I did not feel challenged to come back and try again. I felt frustrated that a quest I had completed many, many times was suddenly not going so well ...on an over level character running for bank favor. This did not incentivize me to open my wallet for purchasing anything this season but rather made me turn off the game for hours till my husband came home and we could run together.

Now I already know I am not an Elite player, I don't try to force myself into epic elite groups, I'm fine doing hard in heroics and some epics but I really don't need some suped-up mobs rubbing my nose in the fact that I have the reflexes of a hippo. I come to quests prepared, I use every buff I can to be ready for the quests I choose to play, I have a good memory for traps and mobs but I can't prepare for or defend against damage that's higher than my life bar. I have +6 Con items, highest false life I can equip, Vitality as soon as possible, I know Con is not a dump stat, I had elemental resistance on top of evasion and good reflexes on a rogue ranger build. Still got one shot killed 3 times almost in a row.

So my opinion is that you the devs should tune down the I hit harder buff somewhat on heroic hard, maybe by a third, and reduce the number of championed mobs in heroic hard to approximately 5%. Then heroic elite reduce their damage perhaps by a quarter, and make sure there are no more than 10% of the mobs made into champions. This leaves the random element, reduces the one-shot death chance on heroic hard, and slightly on heroic elite, does not inundate us with champions and would seem more appropriate.

I will adapt. But I'm less willing to spend money after this change to upgrade my son's account and I probably won't bother even making one for my daughter. I am not one of the players that screams for MOAR challenge. I already had all the challenge I desired in epic elite which I was just beginning to try (having completed less than 10 so far.) I probably won't do epic elite ever again, because random one shot death is just not my cup of tea, it takes playing for fun from something relaxing to something stressful and that just is not why I play. I don't mind about Epic Elite though, that is where the best of the best should be playing. I do mind about heroic hard and heroic elite which I was previously comfortable and happy playing. Now not so much.

That's my opinion.