Monster Champion Feedback

[dunklezhan]

It's because you are only looking at this from your perspective.

Some players, myself included, do not factor randomness in to the term "difficulty." Things I consider "difficult" are things that require an action plan and actually executing that plan. If I slip up and I die, then that was my own fault.

I have the exact same action plan for every champion. I stun them if I can, I trip them if I can't. Failing either of those, I just focus it down first. Then I move on to the next champion (if there is one).

Nothing about that says "difficulty" to me, because I approach them all the same way (since in the middle of a fight, I don't have time to try to examine each individual champion and come up with a plan).

I can try to illustrate what I consider "difficult":
I would much prefer something like that to "I have random buffs, some of which suck for your character."

I wouldn't mind dying to that minotaur, since it would usually be because I didn't dodge his shield attack, or some buddy of his managed to CC me in place for him to kill me. It wasn't because I rolled poorly with the RNG and got screwed.

Sure, you can still metagame it, since it never changes. But you still need to execute on it, and messing up means you die.

Of course, this takes significantly more development than "give random mobs random buffs," so I highly doubt we'll ever see something like that. You could even just overhaul all the boss fights to make them have creative elements like that. So the rest of the quest will still be "easymode" (as some think it), but you actually have to think about how to kill the boss. You don't just steamroll him like every other mob.

I think the effect would work better (in the current implementation I mean, as you say your idea is awesome... but I can't see it ever happening) is with fewer, but more powerful, champions. Keeping them rarer and scarier might give you pause for thought. Three in a pack? You may as well just go caster>everything else as normal.

Or maybe you can only get more than one champion where one of the champions is an orange name. So champion minibosses can get champion minions but the rest of the time just one champ at a time. Just to keep them 'special'. Otherwise you may as well have just buffed all the mobs' HP, DCs, To Hit/Dam, spell pen and SR a little bit on each difficulty and walked away without going of the trouble of doing a new system at all.

However, tweaks not withstanding, I'd rather have the champion system working well than not have it at all. As a casual player, I think this as a concept this is starting from a position of "full of win, needs refinement" for me.

[Sushiboat]

I think the effect would work better (in the current implementation I mean, as you say your idea is awesome... but I can't see it ever happening) is with fewer, but more powerful, champions. Keeping them rarer and scarier might give you pause for thought. Three in a pack? You may as well just go caster>everything else as normal.

Or maybe you can only get more than one champion where one of the champions is an orange name. So champion minibosses can get champion minions but the rest of the time just one champ at a time. Just to keep them 'special'. Otherwise you may as well have just buffed all the mobs' HP, DCs, To Hit/Dam, spell pen and SR a little bit on each difficulty and walked away without going of the trouble of doing a new system at all.

However, tweaks not withstanding, I'd rather have the champion system working well than not have it at all. As a casual player, I think this as a concept this is starting from a position of "full of win, needs refinement" for me.

Haha yeah. I was operating under the assumption champions would be much rarer than they are now (and naturally forgot to put that in the post). Unfortunately, I don't forsee this every happening either.

But mostly I was just trying to explain that not everyone thinks of "difficulty" the same way, which is why some folks might be pushing back harder than others.

[HAL]

An opt-out checkbox is a terrible idea. May as well just remove champions, because nobody in their right mind would choose to have them if it were optional.

Not because they are unreasonable. Simply because it would be silly. Just like you CAN run around naked with no gear, nobody actually does because it would be silly. Choosing the "include champions" checkbox is functionally equivalent to taking off your gear.

It is optional to run Elite. Champions just need to give more XP, they already have the potential to drop more loot.

[FlaviusMaximus]

I'm enjoying the champions, although my sample size is only some EE necro quests so far. Champions can require some adjustments in game play, whether it be keeping them contained with tactics, with spells, or occasionally falling back and regrouping, and that's a good thing. They make me play better and add some excitement. Not sure if they function differently elsewhere, but in EE necro they weren't so overpowered that they made things particularly frustrating. They were just about right.

[Tebaco]

Heroic Elite - The Mask of Deception.

I was running it on my level 26 Drow Pale Master for Favor. Before I grabbed the mask, I ran into a mob with a few Champions, but specifically a level 23 Dragonwing Sorcerer. I was hit with 1,157 cold damage (-30 from Resist Cold spell), and died instantly. Seemed a little excessive for a level 18 quest (on Elite).

DUDE!
Complain for dragon breach hit is simply silly. You should get hit for 5k.. Recall, rebuff, step in again than kill 1st casters, hold assasing, complete..
My bard did there in such 5mins quest pretty well..

[pawpaw2000]

I'm fairly indifferent about the new champion system. I am going to keep doing what I've always been doing while this all gets sorted out.

[HAL]

I am still pushing for a "Add Champions" option upon entry. Instead of the random chests that drop now, you get an additional guaranteed normal chest at the end of the quest (with all options for named loot etc) and additional XP like any optional would give you.

But Heroic quests should still have Champions scaled back in numbers and reduced range of how difficult they can get - maybe scaled with quest level.

[Tebaco]

On elite difficulty, almost 50% of the mobs that spawn are champions. That is too many for duo/trio groups.

Elite isnt designed for solo play. If you cant get full party, play on hard or normal.

[Rys]

An interesting idea, unfortunately poorly managed. I am ok with being two-shotted. But being one-shotted where you have zero chance for recovery is just frustrating.

It is not anything impossible, we actually did complete it but instead of challenging it was rather just consumables intensive.

[Scrabbler]

An interesting idea, unfortunately poorly managed. I am ok with being two-shotted. But being one-shotted where you have zero chance for recovery is just frustrating.

You're in the Mirror room, so the developers will tell you that this is an intended feature of that dungeon, and not a problem with Champions.

In reality they are incorrect: The Terminal Delirium dungeon was created before Monster Champions were active, and an encounter that worked fine without Champions can be broken when they're added on top.

[Aletys]

We've been running Korthos Island quests on level 1 toons. Except for one quest, we're seeing spawn rates with the champions of 22-30%. On the one quest that actually had a 10% spawn rate, I got 22% the other day soloing on a level 15 iconic.

Worse, Champions get buffs that last 10 HOURS! Not minutes, HOURS (yes, I'm intentionally shouting). 10 hour damage boost, when players get 20 seconds? This is an ugly, sad joke.

If the elitist players want this garbage, give them a nightmare mode that gives them extra XP and a chance to get the quest named loot in the Champion chests. This should not be better gear, the same gear. They're obviously already wearing the best gear in the game and are not sufficiently challenged.

Please, please: Leave the rest of us alone, or watch the mass exodus. Most players do not have the time or the desire to die/wipe repeatedly. We'll find something else to do. We're not getting anything extra for it, they eat resources, and frankly IT IS NOT FUN.


================================================== ====================================
Details of what we ran, & the numbers, are below. Please note that we tried to grab the buff details as we went along, but in some cases were having too hard a time staying alive to get them, because they jumped us the minute we hit an area, at least once with 2 champions plus the regular trash.

On level 1 toons:

Heyton's Rest:

• Try 1: 2 champions, including mini-boss necromancer at 3rd altar; mini-boss champion had buffs that last for 10 hours (yes, hours), including Fortification Bypass & True Sight & Damage Boost (amt not stated). Doing 9-12 points damage per hit. First try, party wipe.

Try 2: 3 champions out of 9 before we gave up - 30%

• 1st Champion: hit us with multiple stacks Vulnerable (stacks up to 20 times).
• 2nd Champion: buff are 2nd wind & damage boost (also for 10 hours); 2 deaths.
• 3rd Champion: buffs are damage boost & absorb acid (10 hours); no deaths, but out of health & SP; recalled

Try 3: 5 champions/21 monsters - 24%

• 1st champion (extra damage buff + 1 more)
• 2nd champion (damage boost)
• 3rd Champion (Bjorn Heyton, Extra electric damage, damage boost)
• 4th Champion (True sight, damage boost, vulernability)
• 5th Chamption at end fight

Storehouse Secret

• 1 champion/11 monsters; 1st Champion, red named boss (on hit fire, true sight, deathblock, damage boost)

The Cannith Crystal 4 Champions/15 monsters - 27%

• Last champion had 6 buffs all 10 hours, including at least 2 elemental resists & vulnerable-cold, deathblock

The Collaborator: 4 champions/24 monsters - 20%

• 1st Champion, 3 buffs (fort, damage boost, ?
• 2nd champion, 3 buffs (damage boost, on hit extra slash, ?)
• 3rd Champion, 4 buffs (2nd wind, deathblock, true sight, damage boost)
• 4th Champion, Red Named Kiv Nerl, 3 buffs (damage boost, true sight, ?)

Stopping the Sahuagin:
Try 1: 4 Champions/ 18 monsters = 22% - Last two together, multiple deaths, aborted

• 1st Champion, 3 buffs (damage boost, on hit slash, ?) up to 21 points slash damage (at level 2, 57 HP) - kill
• 2nd Champion, damage boost, ?, ?
• 3rd add damage, true sight, acid, deathblock, damage boost
• 4th absorb bludgeon, absorb pierce, vulernabe to slash, deathblock, damage boost

[Angelic-council]

It's because you are only looking at this from your perspective.

Some players, myself included, do not factor randomness in to the term "difficulty." Things I consider "difficult" are things that require an action plan and actually executing that plan. If I slip up and I die, then that was my own fault.

My respective... It's funny how you say that. I agree that action and plan is very important. But, when was the last time you actually planned the strategy with your team. Since the introduction of MCs, DDO became tricky. I think it's good, many of us do. It's just that the damage is ridiculously high. So, maybe turbine can adjust that part, but it's a good new system.

[FestusHood]

My point, which I may not have even mentioned in this thread (but did in the locked threads) is that the game has gotten easier by leaps and bounds with the past half-dozen or so updates. I don't even mean epic destinies; I mean day 1 wash up on the beach in Korthos the game is way easier than it ever was before. The biggest giant leap of easy was U23, with the Armor Up changes. Adding champions in U24 isn't adding difficulty to an otherwise unchanging game. It's a rebalancing of the difficulty back to reasonable levels after many updates in a row of adding player power, which threw the balance off in the first place. Champions aren't an addition, they're a correction.

I get the exact opposite from this thread. The ones that like it are saying things like "You can play on normal." The ones that don't like it are saying things like "The only people who like it are no-life losers who just want to exclude normal people." Far and away most of the insults and unflattering generalizations are coming from the anti-champion crowd.

No offense Ellis, but by your own admission you won't play epic elite. I get that it is some kind of principle thing for you, what is that principle?

[PyrrhusPyro]

Now that Update 24 is out, and clearly there's a lot of community interest in discussing the new Monster Champion system, we thought it would be a good idea to consolidate the large number of threads on this topic into an official thread. Please run some quests, give it a bit of time, and provide us with your feedback on the Monster Champion system.

We have seen a lot of feedback that appears to be tilted toward Terminal Delerium in particular. It should be noted that Terminal Delerium is an Extreme Challenge dungeon, so particularly if you are running it on Epic Elite, it may not be the best quest to singularly evaluate Monster Champions on. That said, we do appreciate all of your feedback on this topic, regardless of what quest(s) are being used to evaluate the system.

Thanks!

I know you probably added this new champion code across the board for all dungeons, but the zombies that you beat down for meat in the quest Tomb of the Tormented don't need to continuously spring back up as champions. Also, down below in the maze, the worgs and carcass eaters don't need to be champions either. One is just going to spend more time with their sonic wand or blasting rune arm with these guys until they're dead and out of the way of the maze rat. This rat maze quest is difficult enough as is, please consider some exceptions to champions in future updates.

[PpalP]

I read a lot of post about this. Base/casual players don't like Champions, Elitist like them.

Elitist were asking for more challenge and Devs added randomize champions that can instakill you; when uber players will be used to champions and demmand more challenges, Devs will add random traps? or better, a big, really big book that fall from the sky and instakills you, with "I'm the DM!" on the cover... seriously, where is the imagination and creativity?

The fact is, as other people had said, we have to spent more time to get the same xp, the same trash loot and no fun at all (new things are shinnings, but will fade out quickly)

I understand that some players want more challenge, but champions will be only a challenge for a short time, like the first time Epic Elite was introduced, so that's isn't a good solution, only a quick fix with no creativity at all; want more challenge? do better content.

So please, add a check box to allow Elitist player get what they asked and allow the rest of us the same "easy" challenges that we enjoy. Of course, Champion checkbox must bring extra chest and more xp.

[Sushiboat]

My respective... It's funny how you say that. I agree that action and plan is very important. But, when was the last time you actually planned the strategy with your team. Since the introduction of MCs, DDO became tricky. I think it's good, many of us do. It's just that the damage is ridiculously high. So, maybe turbine can adjust that part, but it's a good new system.

I'm not really sure why you think it's funny I said that.

I'm glad you (and others) enjoy the changes. I just want you to understand there are those that fundamentally don't enjoy the changes (i.e. think it is a bad system) and that they play this game too.

[ezmeweatherwax]

Has anyone actually tried old-school cc on this stuff? Perhaps that is the answer to the problem. Letting your cc party member lead and tactically deal with the battle field before diving in head-first.

[Robai]

I'd fix champions this way:

- give them all some small universal bonus (like +2 to all abilities)
- and give them one random big bonus
- show crown color depending on which main bonus they have

A list of big bonuses (subject to opinions/discussion):
- immunity to all spells
- immunity to ranged attacks
- immunity to slashing (yes, just slashing)
- Deathward and 200% fortification and immunity to crowd control (including disco/web/stun/paralyze/even slow/etc)
- +300% hp (yes, even that, but it's just one bonus, and it's a perfect target for instakillers)
- +200% dmg (yes, some of them has to be dangerous)

The idea for immunities is that it might encourage grouping.

[Qhualor]

Has anyone actually tried old-school cc on this stuff? Perhaps that is the answer to the problem. Letting your cc party member lead and tactically deal with the battle field before diving in head-first.

but that's forcing players to play a certain way. people don't want to have to CC mobs to make questing easier. they want to be able to invis past mobs and deal high damaging spells from afar or group mobs up for an AOE to mass kill. your suggestion would force players to group and use other skills besides run forward and trample mobs.

[phillymiket]

Has anyone actually tried old-school cc on this stuff? Perhaps that is the answer to the problem. Letting your cc party member lead and tactically deal with the battle field before diving in head-first.

CC works preposterously well - if you have better than average DC.

Granted Charms don't last in Epics so well but in Heroic you can Charm A Super-Champ to take down the Boss. Really. Try it.

Champions generally seem to get stuck in webs just fine Heroic or Epic.

CC wizard or Bard will do fine with Champs, even if they are pretty new. Maybe they can't just rely on basting everything now.

A 1st lif Rogue? Ahhh... dunno about that.

But excellent advice you offer, if someone is new and struggling try Bard or Wiz maybe.