Monster Champion Feedback

[Albinosaurus]

Almost 600hp slime... ***

[susiedupfer]

Almost 600hp slime... ***

In Durk's Got a Secret. This is surely going to help us keep new players.

Since I posted on a not-official thread about the champions in heroic quests, I will only summarize here.

1. Too many champions in Purge the Fallen Shrine. And only chests in the room right before the end boss. Every torch had at least one champion. We were getting one-shotted over and over. Boss was far easier to kill than the champion. We need some balance here. Less champions in lower heroic quests, and less HP so we don't chase newbies away.

2. Need to address healing. Either everyone gets valid self healing options, or make hires usable in raids and healer hires not count as party members. Going back to waiting hours for a healer is not a good answer. Neither is people getting angry if a cleric or FVS uses a SP on an offensive spell. Remember those days? I do, all too well.

[Blastyswa]

An opt-out check-box is a terrible idea. May as well just remove champions, because nobody in their right mind will choose to have them if they are optional.

Not because champions are unreasonable. Simply because it would be silly to use them. Just like you can run around naked with no gear, nobody actually does because it would be silly. Choosing the "include champions" check-box is functionally equivalent to taking off your gear.

The fact that most players, in their right mind and with the ability to do so, would choose to not play with champions shows the flaws of their current implementation. If a check-box for champion spawning was included, which logically makes sense as radical mandatory changes this late in a games life are detrimental to the health of the game, then the course to follow in order to prevent the mass use of the opt out would be simply to make champions actually give a reward. If data is collected for a time on how long completions of quests are taking with the new champions versus the old non champion game-play, then enabling champions could come with an exp bonus that fairly closely keeps exp/minute the same whether playing with or without champions; furthermore, bonuses to loot and or guild renown gained could be increased through the selection of the champion feature. This would enable players, whether playing for experience, guild, or loot, to have more incentive to use champions, which, as you have said yourself, otherwise would not be the inclination. This would fulfill the desires of the players that wish to play the game as it has been for the past several years, fulfill the wishes of those who wish to have an increased challenge, and add an incentive for undertaking this challenge. At the moment, I agree that champions being optional would be like nude high difficulty runs. Human nature is to pine for something beyond what is currently possessed (more difficulty) without actually striving for it (making the game more difficult for oneself). With proper inducement however, champions non-champion playing could easily be balanced to keep how the game currently is, with the added difficulty that a minority of players have been hankering for.

[Nestroy]

...

/signed

Might add that the problem is not the on e single champ, even if that champ is doing horrendous damage. The problem is a room full of mobs with aboput 30 - 40 % of them champs and most of them either being near-to impossible to kill (due to resistances, defenses, saves, hit points) and the other ones doing insane damage. And no chance to weed out the damaging ones on time to "do tactics". A room full of champs - there is no tactic.

Tone down on the champs - 10% would be OK, this means an average room of 30 mobs has 3 champs. I saw 40 mobs and about 15 champs yesterday. No tactic needed, just plain wading inside and killing everything - they were only lowly melees anyway...

And then there is still the topic of no substantial reward for the champions at all... Seems the chest drops are even rarer than shard drops on old epic quests .

[Blackheartox]

Re-read his message you didn't read it correctly. He is saying the percentage is way higher than 10% which anyone that ran the quest on live would agree with.



When I first started playing I ran a few quests on normal. Then tried hard and quickly ran a quest on elite. I was soon running almost everything on elite and this was before bravery bonus, tomes of xp, etc.. Most new players are running elite within a few weeks and always have been. Getting one-shotted at low levels will change that.

Past lifes were intended to be an optional grind and not a mandate to run elite. Now you are saying because someone is new they shouldn't be running on elite. When people acquired their 3 barbarian and 9 primal past lifes what difficulty do you think they were running on? Elite of course and now after 60 lifes it's too easy for them. But they never had to deal with difficulty of harbor quests being scaled up like this when they were new players. And they would have been one-shotted and complained at that time also.

A new player really shouldn't play this game if they can't run on elite - compared to years ago the rewards are much better on elite and xp is much better on elite running a streak. A 2 year learning curve doesn't really make sense for this game any more. A new player definitely shouldn't bother with VIP if they aren't expected to be running elite because that is the initial compelling reason why a new player would choose VIP over FTP - to open on Elite.

Make champions optional with a checkbox - chests are the rewards - and make sure you can get tome drops in those. Otherwise stop the one-shotting outside of raids.

The game as it currently is sucks bad for most players and most won't come to the forums and complain for obvious reasons after reading the forums. There is a post about in-game surveys in the general discussion area - you should really consider that for good feedback and you should also line it up with spending patterns to weed out votes with mules that never spent a penny on the game.

Just change bravery bonus.
Also keep in mind that we who date to around the time when tring came out etc.
I date around 2009 myself for example, that we had a rougher time to play in heroic content.
Not because we were less skilled, because game was harder, sulficiency was lower, character power was weaker, enchantment trees did not provide as much power as now.
Gear didnt provide as much power as now.
Basically nowadays, at time you hit lv 2 you alrdy get ap for relevant things that make you incredibly stronger compared to old times.
Now only thing that scaled up was power of us, not the enemies.
Even without shipies new enchantment trees alone offer a huge power spike.
What they should do, just change the bravery bonus, no more mandatory elite streak play style, keep elite hardcore as it is.
Imo champs should be a feature for epic content alone.
Heroic can be learning content

[Edwardt]

Monster Champions are in most cases fine to me and I can say I really like the idea itself.

The quality of the MCs:
There has to be some changes in the random creation of the buffs and also in adjustment to the monster itself. Some combinations make a common mob far stronger than the endboss and sometimes impossible to kill.

Yesterday we (2-3) run with our TR toons sixteen level 8 to level 9 quests on heroic elite.

Most of them were hard struggle and compared to u23 the death rate of characters jumped up to 500% in some quests.

The Haywire Foundry we had to restart, because two caster champions standing next to each other on a runway, both with 'champion on hit' and 'I deal extra damage' just killed us over and over again way before we could reach them.

Lot of MCs just had two, three buffs, some up to seven. The number of buffs and debuffs is not a big deal - the combination of them is.
Some of them shouldn't appear on one mob at the same time.

Like many voices before: don't make Monster Champions harder than the Boss will be.

The quantity of the MCs:
Due to the experience in our last quests I might say the over all appearance might be at ~ 8% for common mobs.
Sometimes we saw not a single one, sometimes the half of a mob group was a champion.
In Necro2 nearly 50% of the orange named were champions, (which we appreciated for the chance of an extra chest). Shouldn't be this implement a little bit more balanced?

I really like the champions, but the shouldn't stack up in piles. And if they do, there should be a limited number of buffs in an area.
Either one champion with seven buffs, or seven champions with each one buff would be ok for me.

The main goal of the game is to have fun!
The point, where it stops to be funny has to be adjusted.

I also read a lot of playing now in a proper group. That's right - good luck with that one on Wayfinder.

Sure, lots of players here are in to the game since many years, well equipped and TRed often enough to deal with challenges a group of first lifer will dream of.
If you think the MCs are easy - fine - you may be right for your build.
Then there are players who just hate builds of other people just because they are capable of soloing EE. Now they are happy about the champions, which make that nearly impossible.
I got no toon which is capable of doing solo EE, but I feel sorry for those haters and think the endgame player should have also fun in the way they want to play.

We all are good in acclimatization, so if I cant play elite anymore, I'll play hard.

My main point is fun - not struggle

Many solutions and really nice ideas are mentioned here.

The simples and best solution for the champions in my opinion is a UI button yes/no
and a xp/reward increase for [x] yes

[Ayseifn]

Just did all the GH walk ups with a group of 5, they were also fine. In fact they were really good, the mob density there is highish if you zerg but if you slow down a bit you can see each champ as they show up and apply strategy as yo go. Probably my fav chain after the change, I'd zerg until I saw a crown and then stop and make a murder hole. Sometimes they were rough but jumping around and healing still works so I did that. Only problem was when I pushed too hard and we got 3 or more from a group, those were tough but still pretty fun.

Because if they don't do this they are going to lose many players very quickly - they've already lost some for certain.

The extra reward is the chests that come from champions. They should include a chance @ tome drops in those based on level. EE level 28 should offer +5 to 6 tome upgrades.

I don't ask for them to be removed I ask for them to be optional because I will not play a game where I get one-shotted - it's a complete waste of my time.

If someone is forced to run on Normal they should choose Neverwinter over DDO because the disadvantages of being a DDO player that has to run on normal is too great.

I'd just farm HH EE for tomes if that were the case, lots of easy orange nameds to destroy very quickly and easily. That or EE DA, or I guess just buy them from the store like I already did. Also +6 tomes was the incentive for EE raids but that didn't really work out well, raids are just a normal repeat until 20th fest.

You're right about elite being to favourable though, that's why I suggested getting rid of bravery. Losing bravery doesn't mean less XP accross the board unless that's the only part of the change, removing bravery but also buff quest XP in general is fine too. That's a start on making elite no longer feel mandatory, maybe more things are needed.

[Yalinaa]

The yes or no checkbox seems perfect.

However, you can guarantee that most of the "the games too easy for me braggarts" who are for the champion changes as it is currently implemented, will mostly be clicking the no champions box too.

Yepp. So true. All this OptIn/OptOut checkbox was generating a lot of pages on Lammania section, and ofc was completely ignored by Turbine.
Killing new player's fun, annihilating permadeath build etc. because of 1% of the players wants to epeen themselves versus others is just ridicolous. They would surely OptOut champs if there is a checkbox.

[Gempoult]

An opt-out checkbox is a terrible idea. May as well just remove champions, because nobody in their right mind would choose to have them if it were optional.

Not because they are unreasonable. Simply because it would be silly. Just like you CAN run around naked with no gear, nobody actually does because it would be silly. Choosing the "include champions" checkbox is functionally equivalent to taking off your gear.

So to force down on EVERYBODY something that, if made optional, NOBODY will select is good thing?

[Qhualor]

Yepp. So true. All this OptIn/OptOut checkbox was generating a lot of pages on Lammania section, and ofc was completely ignored by Turbine.
Killing new player's fun, annihilating permadeath build etc. because of 1% of the players wants to epeen themselves versus others is just ridicolous. They would surely OptOut champs if there is a checkbox.

if it was 1% of the players that asked for Turbine to add more challenge to the game, there wouldn't be weekly threads about it.

[DarthCaedus]

Just change bravery bonus.
Also keep in mind that we who date to around the time when tring came out etc.
I date around 2009 myself for example, that we had a rougher time to play in heroic content.
Not because we were less skilled, because game was harder, sulficiency was lower, character power was weaker, enchantment trees did not provide as much power as now.
Gear didnt provide as much power as now.
Basically nowadays, at time you hit lv 2 you alrdy get ap for relevant things that make you incredibly stronger compared to old times.
Now only thing that scaled up was power of us, not the enemies.
Even without shipies new enchantment trees alone offer a huge power spike.
What they should do, just change the bravery bonus, no more mandatory elite streak play style, keep elite hardcore as it is.
Imo champs should be a feature for epic content alone.
Heroic can be learning content

Even easier. Make the champions a checkbox which you can choose or opt out of. Give the chests a chance to drop tomes scaling to level. Done.

If some people like and others hate it - it should be optional.

[Qhualor]

Even easier. Make the champions a checkbox which you can choose or opt out of. Give the chests a chance to drop tomes scaling to level. Done.

If some people like and others hate it - it should be optional.

I pulled a+3-+4 Int upgrade tome from a Champion chest last night in Mindsunder. I know a bunch of others who have done the same. while most of the loot is junk, I am getting more chances for Festival coins and tons more renown.

[Albinosaurus]

if it was 1% of the players that asked for Turbine to add more challenge to the game, there wouldn't be weekly threads about it.

Patently false. Every game has its vocal minorities. Just watch the suggestions threads and you will see lots of things that should never make it into the game. Even if they repost it every day, that doesn't mean it should be implemented.

[DarthCaedus]

The fact that most players, in their right mind and with the ability to do so, would choose to not play with champions shows the flaws of their current implementation. If a check-box for champion spawning was included, which logically makes sense as radical mandatory changes this late in a games life are detrimental to the health of the game, then the course to follow in order to prevent the mass use of the opt out would be simply to make champions actually give a reward. If data is collected for a time on how long completions of quests are taking with the new champions versus the old non champion game-play, then enabling champions could come with an exp bonus that fairly closely keeps exp/minute the same whether playing with or without champions; furthermore, bonuses to loot and or guild renown gained could be increased through the selection of the champion feature. This would enable players, whether playing for experience, guild, or loot, to have more incentive to use champions, which, as you have said yourself, otherwise would not be the inclination. This would fulfill the desires of the players that wish to play the game as it has been for the past several years, fulfill the wishes of those who wish to have an increased challenge, and add an incentive for undertaking this challenge. At the moment, I agree that champions being optional would be like nude high difficulty runs. Human nature is to pine for something beyond what is currently possessed (more difficulty) without actually striving for it (making the game more difficult for oneself). With proper inducement however, champions non-champion playing could easily be balanced to keep how the game currently is, with the added difficulty that a minority of players have been hankering for.

Yes exactly!!!

[Yalinaa]

if it was 1% of the players that asked for Turbine to add more challenge to the game, there wouldn't be weekly threads about it.

Oh, noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo... Then what we need to prepare now.... is SERVER MERGE?!?!?%

[Blastyswa]

Just change bravery bonus.
Also keep in mind that we who date to around the time when tring came out etc.
I date around 2009 myself for example, that we had a rougher time to play in heroic content.
Not because we were less skilled, because game was harder, sulficiency was lower, character power was weaker, enchantment trees did not provide as much power as now.
Gear didnt provide as much power as now.
Basically nowadays, at time you hit lv 2 you alrdy get ap for relevant things that make you incredibly stronger compared to old times.
Now only thing that scaled up was power of us, not the enemies.
Even without shipies new enchantment trees alone offer a huge power spike.
What they should do, just change the bravery bonus, no more mandatory elite streak play style, keep elite hardcore as it is.
Imo champs should be a feature for epic content alone.
Heroic can be learning content

If an optional check-box doesn't end up being implemented, then /signed to no champions in heroics.

[Qhualor]

Patently false. Every game has its vocal minorities. Just watch the suggestions threads and you will see lots of things that should never make it into the game. Even if they repost it every day, that doesn't mean it should be implemented.

1% of the players is not the same person posting over and over again. theres a difference between a player representing a specific part of the population and a player that is vocal. in the end, its the devs that decide what to implement into the game. we asked for more challenge, but we weren't asked if Champions would be what we wanted for challenge. they just introduced it to us on Lama, but im sure it went before the PC first for their thoughts on it.

[ggalhano]

I kinda like the idea of having someone geared as well as players inside a castle, tower and whatnot cause, hey, if you want to conquer something you might as well be prepared.

What I deeply dislike is the feeling I'm getting as if I have someone DMing to annihilate the entire party, outta boredom.

Though I'm aware this is fairly related to its pen and paper cousin, the difference of having 4+ champions at the same time along, or not, bosses is simply frustrating, specially in places where tons of spawns occur cause of poor implementation, in my opinion as a DM. Why would I get an mighty Wizard of Tay or Netherese along the bosses at its content, or even an avatar of Shar if I can simply add tons of mobs for giggles and clearly wanting the demand on its content done with.

With a full party, geared, though I was only a level 25 bladeforged with 1k+ hp at EH Dont Drink the Water with 180 prr (60%+ mitigation), I was getting hit for 120+/hit by 4 champions, not counting the tons of mobs at the Yuan-ti barriers; The 28 druid with 900hp was getting killed each three seconds with two hits;

The exact same party at EH Friends in Low Places had only me surviving at the fights for the crests whilst burning all my sp, silver flame pots and lay on hands. Not to mention the last part with the insane mob popping per 30 seconds;

At necropolis, same people, same EH, to be more exact in Ghosts of Perdition, the usual bollocks of 4d6 con dmg/hit while he pops 3~5 hits in a row, got brutalized by the champions/mobs. Not to mention the lack of ways to counter the friggin con dmg since the Crimson Nightshade Infusion pots seems to be broken (Panacea), and drinking a lesser restoration pot can get you +1~+4 con back while you take a hit for 4d6.

I wont even say anything about the fight with the fake Whisper at Haunted Halls along its 6~8 champions.

I mean, seriously, not even the paly enhancement or weaponry for light dmg is working properly on vampires since u23 went live, why would I even bother trying those nowadays with the champions in them.

And all of this for a chance on a regular, useless, chest. Not even a good amount of guild renown or more exp in the quest base exp. Just 10% chance for a bloody regular chest.

As I've said, I like the idea of a challenge IF such was balanced for an actual group, just like it was thought of when designed for bloody pen and paper and not made so Chuck Norris would just come and log into Lord of Blades to have something to do rather than his usual roundhouse kicks at his regular life.

Cheerio.

[Tokeri]

when i started playing, running elite's solo was never an option we soloed normal and some hard quests after that we would start looking for groups for elite. but back then we didn't have bravery bonus so we weren't punished for playing normal like we are now, now its almost tabu to put up and lfm for anything but elite today.
when they added the bravery bonus they also nerfed all base xp from quest's by a large margin iirc, if we revert quest xp back to that i don't think there will be much issues with champs anymore since the casuals as the bandwagoneer's like to call them selfs still get their exp without having to deal with to many champions. im not a fan of BB either way but i have no problem leaving champions as they are with some minor tweaks to a few of them

i also question this casual exodus, my tomeless 32point cleric pugger dont have any issues with champs sure im not soloing any elites anymore but im pugging heroic elite and enjoying that content a lot more then i did before u24. i don't think CC is to advanced for anyone no matter how much of a casual they claim to be

i haven't played any epics with that cleric yet but i will do as soon as i hit cap wich im only 2 ranks away from,
my reflex really sucks, i have eaten some nasty spells but i have yet to see any champion one shot me ive seen things come close though in gh tor the pyramancers delay blast fireballs where hitting so hard while i kept failing my saves. same in running with the devils and those ray spells, but my cleric isn't built to be on the front lines so i only have my self to blame for eating those.

[Darthbadger]

I'd remove them from Korthos completely and remove them from HH or make them extremely rare.

The spawn rate (which already seems decreased from Thursday) still seems high at about 15-20%. Right now they are so common that its not "oh look! a champion" its more, "ok, lets blow through another 4 of these things." At first I thought they were fairly uninteresting but now that I've seen more of their buffs I'm cool with them, but the spawn rate is way too high. I'd make them each individually stronger (as in, more buffs, not MOAR bags of HP or one-shooting) but much more rare. I'd think the goal is to have people round a corner if they are zerging along and do a double take, pause, think for a second, then attack. With so many of them I'm already habituated to them as a speed bumps; theres just too many to want to pause and think through. This means that the uber guys don't notice them and aren't really getting the challenge they want but more casual folks are simply crushed. I'd consider a hard cap of 1-3 in elite, and 1 in hard; or some other reasonable distribution, and make them slightly tougher/do more things.

Also, give us something for them. XP, a chest, something. We are rewards based creatures. Right now they just seem like resource clogging (and time is a resource) bags of HP.

Oh, and as an aside, I figured you would all make a storyline for this. Where did these things come from? Like you did with the spell pass. Oh well.