Monster Champion Feedback

[HAL]

In the 1st week of March 2006 I started playing this game.
It was my first ever MMO.
I am not uber. I am a altaholic (have 26 alts.) My strongest character only has 4 lives.
I remember the game as it was. Balanced groups or tactics won the day. not steamroller zerging.
The challenge and possibility of failure is a return to the games roots.
On Khyber I will be be hosting either hard or normal runs again to assist anyone that will want to group with me.
I have rogues and healers parked at various levels to complete holes in a party if required.
I welcome the new champion's with open arms.

Good for you! I mean that seriously. I think it is great that a long-term player is willing to group with newer players. Most "veteran" players are playing completely for themselves and have no interest in those that play below their level no matter what happens to the game.

The main problem with the addition of Champion mobs is that both Reincarnation and Bravery Bonus have created an environment where the vast majority of LFMs are Elite. This means that there really is no grouping meant for newer players.

[HAL]

I kind of see what you are saying here. It's very important to stop this enjoying that's been going on.

ROFLMAO - very nice.

[PhotoRob]

Brilliant! TWO versions of each level of difficulty! that cuts the LFM possibilities in HALF again...
/SARCASM

Keep it as is, champions add flavor to HARD and ELITE because these levels are SUPPOSED to me more of a challenge. Because they were EASY in the past, doesn't mean they SHOULD always be easy.

If you do not like champions they do not spawn everywhere, they can be avoided by running the quest on either NORMAL or CASUAL (levels made easier for the people who don't like a challenge).




You don't know me, I don't have a single character past their third life, I just like the IDEA that everyone doesn't need a trophy for participating. This idea in NOT being shoved down everyones throat, other options ARE available to EVERYONE, some just do NOT want to use them because they are used to getting something more for little to no effort. This makes people need groups, need strategy and probaly some skill to get the MORE, that's all.

Some of us *DO* like a challenge. For me, that challenge was Heroic Hard. These champions do not increase the challenge. For top-end players they are apparently barely noticeable. While for people at my play level, they're at best an increase in the boring and tedious part of the quest; at worst, they're a good kick in the nuts.

My difficulty level - a difficulty level that the challenge seekers *DO NOT EVEN PLAY* - was taken away.

Let me say that again:
***My difficulty level was taken away so people who *DO NOT PLAY THAT LEVEL* can have more of a challenge.***

Dropping to Heroic Normal is no more an acceptable way for me to reduce difficulty than deliberately not using top-end gear is an acceptable way to increase difficulty for vet players. (An option which has been suggested time and time again yet *ALWAYS* rejected immediately.)

{Added} In another thread, somebody commented fondly that this "brings back memories."

It sure does! It brings back the memories of one of the reasons that led me to stop playing the game a couple of years back: the game was too difficult (Yes, TOO difficult) and I hit a roadblock at around level 14. I came back sometime after the enhancement pass and have loved it up to this moment. I guess it's time for another break. I hope the devs fix this abomination before I (and many others) find some other company willing provide an enjoyable game experience in exchange for money.

[HAL]

Here you go. Me in Elite Butchers staring down a Champ Shaman while he casts under 40 hp lighting bolts.



Others were in group as I needed an opener and one stepped in just to help heal me as I stood and took attacks.

If there is really some 800+ damage going on, lets identify and bug report it, etc. But lets not all jump on the bandwagon because one person says its true it must be. I did my testing, you do yours.

Champion mobs get "randomized buffs". Apparently in your ONE TEST your champion Shaman didn't get the buff that other people have witnessed. I KNOW, it is hard to believe that a sample size of ONE didn't net you the same results. But perhaps you should run it a few more times before you dis other players...

[Systern]

Orange stunning fist works

I could of sworn all the named in von3 were acutally Red..... I'll have to pay more attention next run

They're Orange on Hard; Red on Elite.

[TheOnly_LightInDark]

I solo (with my hireling healer) a lot and having a monster that can hits me for 100's of points of damage and doesn't really miss is not the fun I am looking for.

I'm not sure what the developers were expecting to happen and I glad that people who wanted a challenge now have it, but my personally enjoyment of the game has dropped like a rock.

The idea was good, a monster who is a little more special that the usual mob, but I feel they are currently over powered, I have an armour class over 60, 27% doge, 20% blur, 10% incorp and they still hardly miss which would be fine if they didn't hit for 100 plus a shot and since some of them get by pass fort crits are real killers. Not to say what happens to hires who were mentally challenged enough without being one shotted by every champion they meet.

Oh and the idea to drop to a lower level is fine but the Devs took all the xp away from hard and normal, lots of long quests are now worth 4k xp on elite and the rest is made up in bonuses. Bump the xp for the lower levels and I will be happy to run there, knowing that if I need a challenge I can always go up a level.

[bartharok]

Champion mobs get "randomized buffs". Apparently in your ONE TEST your champion Shaman didn't get the buff that other people have witnessed. I KNOW, it is hard to believe that a sample size of ONE didn't net you the same results. But perhaps you should run it a few more times before you dis other players...

Have you considered that he ones getting the insane damages may be exaggerating? I for one have not seen any insane damages, just highish ones.

[geckosith]

Some people have suggested playing on normal or casual. Nobody plays on normal or casual heroic. It's extremely rare to find Hard Heroic as well. Why? The loot sucks, and the experience sucks. This is especially true if your are playing a TR character. It is even more true if you are playing a multi-TR character. Even with a Tome of Experience, Bravery streaks, and the like, multi-TRs level up *painfully* slowly. Try to level up a TR on normal or casual? I have better things to do--like try to explain algebra to a walrus. Chores are not fun.

Also, that kind of gear I keep hearing about that gives you insane stuff like 200 prr... Got that on Elite, I'd wager. "normal" gear is nothing more than vendor trash.

[Nestroy]

Last runs:
EE Impossible Demand - with the bug still active a walk in the park. Even the few champions (about 2 each mob and the Blademaster and the Aosta Spider Pet being champs by default) this was easy in a group of 3+hire.No deaths. All 3 toons in off destinies and lv. range 21-23. Champion rate about 30%. 100% on minibosses.
EE Don´t drink the Water - same group (3+Hire), one death (hire several times) and each and every mob group had at least 2-3 champions. We got some hard time reaching the shrines (I now burn way more mana than before) but the quest was easy.
HE Terminal Delirium - same group. We reasoned that since we could do some EE with ease this should be a walk in the park. We got smoked. Especially the champ beholders killed us big time. We tried the baloon way several times but finally had to give up. Idk if evasion and saves were applying at all. I had several items that usually should work against beholder rays but got smoked before I even could kill the sevond beholder group. I do not know if all saves were working correctly and frankly I do not mind. We faced 3 (!) out of 4 beholers as champ on the first mob group. We made it thru, only to face 2 out of 4 the next group - that was the end. Beholder champs with about 8k hp, antimagic and hitting 1.6k damage / ray had been too much. We gave up.
Just to check again we decided to run normal Delirium on HE - a fun fast quest for the knowledeable and the drinking contest usually being the first highlight inside. We got to the first minibeholders, three of them, two champs, with several reavers and hounds champs as well (well above 50% I would say) and got smashed - on a lv. 15/lv. 17 elite Quest! Especially melees cannot even reach them dammed beholders fast enough to kill them. And in Delirium you do not have lanes long enough not to be hit by the antimagic fields, so casters are easy prey too.

Conclusion: Thanks mainly due to these champs HE quests now are comparable harder to do than EE quests, mainly thanks to absolutely overpowered beholder champs. Yeah, and all caster champs are similarly OP now. By the way, the rock medusae in Palace of Stone - 3 champ medusae in a mob of 6 - oneshottign me on magic missiles doing about 200 points of damage per missile, hitting 7 (!) times - WAI?! I have been playing Pally with 216 PRR anf 146 MRR in there, with saves somewhere in the 60ies and some damage mittigation. The pally currently has about 1.4k hit points. They oneshotted! WAI?!!!!!

Honoable mention goes to the various flying eyes in heroic and elite Madness quests - doing MM-like damage, their champions now shot about 100 points of damage on heroic elite and about 400 damage on epic elite each and every single missile - and they shot between one and seven of these (depending on eye type) and there is no good mittigation for that kind of damage. Thank god these are easy to kill, even the champions. But beware if one can cast before you can kill them.

Just one thing - I understand that mobs have 6k HP, mainly due to us players doing big damage per hit. But we players have perhaps some 400 hit points at heroic levels and perhaps up to 2k on epic (if specially geared / built for this) or else some 600-800 hit points on Joe Average on lv. 24. Mobs hitting for 1.6k (heroic elite) or up to 4k (epic elite) are way OP - we do not get these insane hit points as mobs do.

Needless to say that we didi not find one single extra chest from champions in ALL these quests.

My points so far, I would love to see them tackled by the devs:

1.) Champion quantities - according to what I saw on elite quests (both heroic and epic) the quantities for champs were at about 30-40% of mobs, not at 10% as stated by the devs. Even mob groups of 3-4 usually had at least one champ with them. The more frightful the monsters were, the more champions they had - e.g. 3 out of 4 beholders in Terminal Delirium mobs. This has to be checked. Perhaps with a function giving only one champion / mob group at one single time. Minibosses ALWAYS had been champions so far. WAI?!

2.) If I am facing Champions that are way overpowered now, I expect some reward. Simply said. Either the chest drop rate is increased or the Champions are droping some XP and / or guild renown by default. Currently I run thru quests that are much harder than pre U24 and do get a good laugh and a cold handshake for being idiotic enough or self-pain-inflicting enough to run that *censored for tone, but refers to metabolism byproducts*. Please, devs, make these champions rewarding in anything. Do not make me laugh at the abyssmal drop rate of chests that are far in between. I so far had about two chests (at minibosses) for about 400 champs killed.

3.) some already powerful mobs (e.g. casters, beholders) now even get more powerful. Mobs that never posed some real thread (e.g. melees, archers) now are still cannon fodder, even as champions. Melee and most archery mobs as champions are just big meat bags w/o any threat. Quests that are ladden with these melee mobs are easy to run, even on EE. Quests with caster mobs now are deadly, even for epic toons on heroic elites. Already OP monsters like beholders are even deadlier now. Easily oneshotting even prepared toons that usually laugh at standard beholders. Why does Evasion not apply? Why does the damage mittigation not work correctly? Or is there something more sinister goijng on, them being able to strip me of my defenses? Or are these casters / beholders now so **** fast I get stripped off my (beholde ray) defenses faster than I can say "boo!"? I do not know what it is, but the way it currently is these mobs are way out of whack unbalanced.


By the way, I still like the initial concept of champions. Even randomness in quests. I just want a good reward for the bigger risk taken. Currently the system is too unbalanced to be fun to play. Either give good rewards for mob champions that are much harder to come by than their actual bosses, or tone down on them in both quantity and raw (magic) damage output.

[bartharok]

Some people have suggested playing on normal or casual. Nobody plays on normal or casual heroic. It's extremely rare to find Hard Heroic as well. Why? The loot sucks, and the experience sucks. This is especially true if your are playing a TR character. It is even more true if you are playing a multi-TR character. Even with a Tome of Experience, Bravery streaks, and the like, multi-TRs level up *painfully* slowly. Try to level up a TR on normal or casual? I have better things to do--like try to explain algebra to a walrus. Chores are not fun.

Also, that kind of gear I keep hearing about that gives you insane stuff like 200 prr... Got that on Elite, I'd wager. "normal" gear is nothing more than vendor trash.

There are just a few quests that give diff based gear. Some are easier to get on elite (on a single run), but most of the time you can gear up just as easily (if a bit slower) on normal.

And its quite possible to level a TR without doing elites, and its not all that much slower either, considering that elites can take longer to play through.

If you find it fun or not is another matter.

[Nestroy]

Have you considered that he ones getting the insane damages may be exaggerating? I for one have not seen any insane damages, just highish ones.

Try beholder mobs in Terminal Delirium on EE for a chance. Try to get 3 champs out of 4 beholders and tell me of your findings.

Alternatively, take a lv. 19 toon (completionist, but not with EDs active) into heroic elite Terminal Delirium and fight 3 champ beholders there.

Then let´s talk again.

[bartharok]

Try beholder mobs in Terminal Delirium on EE for a chance. Try to get 3 champs out of 4 beholders and tell me of your findings.

Alternatively, take a lv. 19 toon (completionist, but not with EDs active) into heroic elite Terminal Delirium and fight 3 champ beholders there.

Then let´s talk again.

Try doing any quest with beholders on elite at level, champs or not, by using tactics that dont work (since the tactics have not been developed yet), and you are likely to fail.

And you are talking about one quest, not a real sample since the quest may be just too hard in itself.

[Scrabbler]

Here's an important problem with Monster Champions that could be addressed with better visual presentation:

Suppose you're fighting a group of enemies with a few Champions among them. Depending on the random buffs a Champion got, the correct way to deal with it could be very different:

• Try to damage it before regular monsters (if it has high damage or defense bypass, but not defense itself).
• Try to damage it after regular monsters (if it has a lot of defense, but not much danger)
• Use an instakill / hold (if it's dangerous, but not protected)
• Avoid wasting instakills / holds (if it has specific immunities)
• Avoid damaging it until you're safe and ready (if it has the Second Wind effect, for more damage after being hurt)
• Or treat it like every other mob, since many champs get nothing special.

So in theory, there are many gameplay choices users could make to get better or worse results when fighting Champions. The problem is: Where do they get the information to make the right choice? There's no good way to know what buffs an enemy has. There's a window you can open to get a list of icons, and a mouseover can get a description of each one... but that window simply wasn't designed and built to be a good way find and use information within a fraction of a second. It doesn't even fit well to have it up open on the screen.

Simply seeing a Crown icon tells almost nothing about how to approach fighting that monster.

[phillymiket]

Some people have suggested playing on normal or casual. Nobody plays on normal or casual heroic. It's extremely rare to find Hard Heroic as well. Why? The loot sucks, and the experience sucks. This is especially true if your are playing a TR character. It is even more true if you are playing a multi-TR character. Even with a Tome of Experience, Bravery streaks, and the like, multi-TRs level up *painfully* slowly. Try to level up a TR on normal or casual? I have better things to do--like try to explain algebra to a walrus. Chores are not fun.

Also, that kind of gear I keep hearing about that gives you insane stuff like 200 prr... Got that on Elite, I'd wager. "normal" gear is nothing more than vendor trash.

People will respond with "That's the way the game always used to be."

They will remind us that the usual used to be running each quest 3x N, H, E.

They will point out how 3rd life TR in 2009 or earlier had much more struggle for XP with far less content.

And they will be right.

The only problem is back then there were lots of Normal LFMs up to choose from.
Back then the difference between Norm and Elite was a bit more XP, not almost double the XP like it is now.
Back then Elite was more important for favor than XP so you didn't "lose" on Normal as you do now.
Back then having a really new player was far more common then having someone with a bazzilion PLs.

Religating new players to having to run 3x Norm to level at this point in the game is putting them in a far worse situation then existed prior to 2011 or so.

Maybe we had more grind but at least we weren't alone and alienated while doing it, and that's all the difference in the world.

I like Champions and I want this to work out.

I'd love it if DDO returned to group play with Normal being the, well, the normal and Elite being rare fo PuGs.

I just don't think you get there from here.

This is not 2008.

It's a different game and there is no easy button for turning back the clock on years of boosting gear and self-sufficiency powers for players.

Champions are fun but I don''t think we will have Normal LFMs pop up overnight or that the "divine/arcane/rogue/3 melee" party will suddenly return.

So I think Champions should be adjusted to not negatively impact new players a bit, at least on Heroic Hard.

Why should the Vets care if Heroic Hard Champions get nerfed? Are any of us going to actually run Heroic Hard ever again?

Or maybe Champions won't even change anything at all.

Or maybe change things for the better.

I hope so.

[Tholgrin_Stoneforge]

Try doing any quest with beholders on elite at level, champs or not, by using tactics that dont work (since the tactics have not been developed yet), and you are likely to fail.

And you are talking about one quest, not a real sample since the quest may be just too hard in itself.

Anti-beholder tactics have long been developed and documented.

End of "beholder" as an excuse.

[Albinosaurus]

For you Vet players who "want a challenge," it really doesn't matter what you think. The fact is that this change is driving away new players--players this game desperately needs to stay alive, so you can enjoy it at all--and will have that WoW-fail effect where word of mouth simply overshadows everything the devs try to say or do.

However, I'm not without a sense of fairness or empathy. They should just have Elite+ as an option (with better rewards), and more importantly, they need to brand this as that "unreachable, unbeatable difficulty" that only the top 1% have a chance against. The people who want a challenge will have it.

Upsetting the status-quo in the way this update has will prove extremely costly in the long-term, and that's assuming people can tolerate it in the short-term. As for myself, I'm probably going to take a few days off the game, at least, and give them some time to undo some of this damage. If they don't, I will probably end up cancelling my VIP when it's up; no reason to pay for a game I probably won't play on a regular basis anymore.

Btw, Path of Exile just released a new update today, launching a new ladder season. I guess I know what I'll be doing for the next few days.

[Vulkoorex]

Here you go. Me in Elite Butchers staring down a Champ Shaman while he casts under 40 hp lighting bolts.



Others were in group as I needed an opener and one stepped in just to help heal me as I stood and took attacks.

If there is really some 800+ damage going on, lets identify and bug report it, etc. But lets not all jump on the bandwagon because one person says its true it must be. I did my testing, you do yours.

I think it was Water Works and not Butcher's Path that they were talking about.

In any case, Butcher's path on elite is at L4. Now how many hp would a new player at L4 have?

Not everyone is in a guild with the magic buffs.

[bartharok]

Anti-beholder tactics have long been developed and documented.

End of "beholder" as an excuse.

Thats what i meant. There are tactics for beholders, and that why they are no longer hard. Champion beholders are new, so people have not yet learned the right tactics, but try to use the old ones. Which is why it fails.

End of "developed and documented" as an excuse.

[Systern]

Could everyone who's posted in this thread do me a favor?

Go run Hold For Reinforcements

We need 17 pages of "Frakking COYLE gets one shotted by champions!"


Because there hasn't been enough griping about Coyle in the past 8 months. I miss it.

[Tholgrin_Stoneforge]

Thats what i meant. There are tactics for beholders, and that why they are no longer hard. Champion beholders are new, so people have not yet learned the right tactics, but try to use the old ones. Which is why it fails.

End of "developed and documented" as an excuse.

Point made... although it could have been a little more clear in your original post.