Monster Champion Feedback

[Vooduspyce]

Now that Update 24 is out, and clearly there's a lot of community interest in discussing the new Monster Champion system, we thought it would be a good idea to consolidate the large number of threads on this topic into an official thread. Please run some quests, give it a bit of time, and provide us with your feedback on the Monster Champion system.

We have seen a lot of feedback that appears to be tilted toward Terminal Delerium in particular. It should be noted that Terminal Delerium is an Extreme Challenge dungeon, so particularly if you are running it on Epic Elite, it may not be the best quest to singularly evaluate Monster Champions on. That said, we do appreciate all of your feedback on this topic, regardless of what quest(s) are being used to evaluate the system.

Thanks!

After day 1 I love them! I pugged a couple of quest chains and saw people struggling with the champions... in a good way. They added some nice challenge to quests that we would otherwise fly through.

The only thing I don't like about champions is the crown. It looks silly and makes them look non threatening. It reminds me of the Brunswick bowling crown, so it looks to me like they are just bowling champions

Maybe a gold fireshield aura instead?

Overall great addition to make quests a little more challenging! I love it!

[lyrecono]

Did you not notice that the player gets turned into glass in the mirror room?

5 of us didn't have that "buff", we came in later, the icon didn't show

[Braegan]

I have, the fireball got us by suprise, korthos was fast and easy, but butchers path deserved it's name. Warlock_Cyressy spawned, some went ahead, i was running up the ladder at the end when i saw 4 man drop at once, even the def stance platemail&shield paladin died, all 4 went from full hp to dieing in 1 shot, someone posted the damage, 1.2k.
Thats insane, not because 4 random toons died but because those toons died. 4 uber geared toons with tons of pastlives and many years of exp. all had shipbufs and 30+ resists.
It changed into a pot chugging fest, how are the other caster dealing with this? Spending more mana? more pots?

That Trog Shaman in Butchers has always been a baddy. I've seen him near wipe groups before this change.

I know it's hard in the thick of things, but did you notice if their is a spell power buff some champs get or whatever, because as I've tested I have not seen what you are describing. Like I said, a kobold shaman was spamming sub 40 pt lighting bolts at me.

As to what I am doing is treating it like the game used to be. Kill casters ASAP. Stun them, trip them, CC them and make them dead before they return the favor. Then I work on the next dangerous and so on and so on. I think I drank 3 pots last night in Terminal out of running the chain, 1st time running it, no idea what to do, and we succeeded, not that bad for day 1 running content, I know I used a lot more when LoB came out, lol.

[Uska]

I could of sworn all the named in von3 were acutally Red..... I'll have to pay more attention next run

Orange stunning fist works

[MeliCat]

Atm I love them... although maybe I won't when I'm playing a melee (atm I'm playing a wiz most of the time) and up close and personal and they crit me. Really melees do come off worse in this change as they will feel it first. If you scale it back at all I would say please think of the melees

I also wonder how I'm going to feel when I'm doing things that I typically invis and I get bosses with true seeing - that is going mildly annoying.

also... currently running von3 and one champion respawn has given me "ice storm: cold damage" that won't go away - even after shrining and even after leaving the quest. This has affected other party members also. Goes away on reloging.

[Sehenry03]

After day 1 I love them! I pugged a couple of quest chains and saw people struggling with the champions... in a good way. They added some nice challenge to quests that we would otherwise fly through.

The only thing I don't like about champions is the crown. It looks silly and makes them look non threatening. It reminds me of the Brunswick bowling crown, so it looks to me like they are just bowling champions

Maybe a gold fireshield aura instead?

Overall great addition to make quests a little more challenging! I love it!

This is exactly what I thought. The crown is kinda...cheesy. Do a fire or cold shield effect or some glowing effect. Something cool. Come on these guys are CHAMPIONS!!! They were made to kick our ass.

[Connman]

But, if we are going to get check boxes, I would like one that says

[X] Champions Only

Then, we can have the old epic level, you know when it was only one choice, "soul crushing". People that play, have been playing forever, and just started all need something to aspire towards. Something that may takes years to accomplish.

[BD_]

Didn't mean to be a smartass sorry, just trying to lighten up the mood a bit.

Anyway, fresh experience.
Duo EE Breaking the ranks with Blitzing monkcher, me on Palemaster.
I HAD to cc those yellow crowns, immediately dance if the break out from 66 dc Disco or hold.
I had to pay attention to kiting or cc Shadar kai trash at the end. Arcane Surge, debuffs, be sure webs land. Because one hit on 900 hp / 60 prr almost kills me. Almost.

Trio EE Wgu, same monkcher, Fury BF pally, I brought my "squishy " Tempest for fun.
Have to Fury or kite and pay attention, first orc group, two champs, well I'd better not jump in the middle of those.
So 850hp/110 Blitz prr toon, NEVER one shot. Maybe 250- 400 hits from Shadarkais and 400 -600 from Orcs or Ice ellies.

Died first time, fighting group of orcs with 2 champions at the bridge alone. Could have avoided it by better play.
Monkcher died at one point, I just popped MS and Blitz, well now I got bunch of ellies on my arse. Well tough luck
We managed with four deaths, 2 mine on relatively squishy 850 hp/80-110 prr melee.
It's total blast !

People should stop the exaggerations, EE ready toon DOES NOT get one shotted. Again, don't know about new content.

I thought it was kinda funny, but still smartass...

I never got one hit either, but came close there are plenty of people doing EE that have only 750ish hps and 80 ish PRR and they do just fine (or used to) - still in a game, multiple random "trash" mobs per quest that are each individually harder than the end boss is just wrong... not even scripted fight sequences that are supposed to be hard, but just random trash stuff... and single mobs not entire encounters...

Again, being reduced to kiting frequently isn't fun... being one or two hit on a regular basis isn't fun... you said you were taking regular hits for 400-600 from some mobs, that's about the range I said was normal too - but a few a little harder on a not really squishy but not really tough either char and the risk of being one hit is there... One hit often - no, but "trash" mobs should not be regularly two hitting almost everyone either...

Obviously there are bugs with champions in HH and a few other places - aside from those places (ie in places where they are working "normally") I still think that champions as implemented are "wrong" and not fun. I'm fairly certain I can still solo most EE's on multiple characters - I'm not saying champions made the game too hard for me, I'm saying they make it not fun for most people (including me) and too hard for some (on the difficulties where they can appear).

I've always been of the opinion that the difficulty gap between EE and EH was too great - I think champions increased the gap even further (and also increased the difficulty gap between EN and EH) I'll go do some test runs in some EH and some HE and HH later but, at least for EE.

I stand by my original statement that "Random (trash) mobs should not be harder than the toughest boss and raid boss mobs in the game", and the champions idea/system has potential but has been implemented in a very bad way. There should be less champions over all, there should be a limit on how many can spawn in a single small area - especially in "special" encounters and in respawns, and "I hit harder should be toned down" among other things. IMO those are by far the biggest issues though.

[brian14]

Depths of Despair elite. The Eater and Sslysk both had crowns and dropped extra chests. Weird thing happened -- when The Eater died, a message appeared above him: "Only one room left to explore". I do not remember ever seeing anything like this, anywhere.

[Kulothar]

Now that Update 24 is out, and clearly there's a lot of community interest in discussing the new Monster Champion system, we thought it would be a good idea to consolidate the large number of threads on this topic into an official thread. Please run some quests, give it a bit of time, and provide us with your feedback on the Monster Champion system.We have seen a lot of feedback that appears to be tilted toward Terminal Delerium in particular. It should be noted that Terminal Delerium is an Extreme Challenge dungeon, so particularly if you are running it on Epic Elite, it may not be the best quest to singularly evaluate Monster Champions on. That said, we do appreciate all of your feedback on this topic, regardless of what quest(s) are being used to evaluate the system.Thanks!

Really?? REALLLY? What dev thought putting two (228hp & 245hp) Whelps in the Collaborator ( a lv 3 quest on elite) that cast, mixed in with the other mobs was going to make lv 1 player happy. Ran again and had 2 200+ whelps and two 200+ hp humans all in the same spawn in the first room. Even as a TR my 46 hp at lv 1, my hireling and I were no match and went through 18 CSW pots before they took me out. The two champion beholders and two mindflayers at the same time yesterday were not much fun either but at least it was a quick death since I was held the entire time. If you had time and room to maneuver they might not be so bad but in mass spawns they are the worse thing I have seen since beta.(Edit: My first post was from memory which had exaggerated HP posted. I went back and checked my log to correct it. Still 46hp FVS with starter equipment vs. two to four 200+ HP mobs is not a good idea. I am not sure what the Whelps were casting but it wasn't spells.. It was more like debuffs.)

[Stonemerge]

There have always been risks of dying in DDO, less over the years but that did make the game more fun and is something they are trying to get back to.

Remember your first Ogre encounter? A triple crit smack would kill just about any at level character.

Kobold Shaman and Hobgoblin esp on Hard spamming Hold Person can kill an at level character pretty quick too.

Getting back to a game where there was some challenge instead of facerolling content is a good thing. These really large numbers I have yet to see. More detail would be nice from posters claiming this.

I for one welcome our new champion overlords.

There were ways to prevent what u described and we all learned them. Fortification is a must have .. evasion is your friend ... jump around all the time ... be fast ... fall back. BUT NOW - you did not see those big numbers yet and i was not online since the update ... but there are pictures in this and in other threads - do u really think some guys here photoshopped them - i dont think so. There are many here who have brought their experiences to us and im scared. If they want to make epic elites a new challenge - fine - i dont care -thats okay for our ubers, they are bored and need something to do - i agree. But why touching heroics ... why ? OptIn OptOut and everyone is lucky.

Some guys here seem to think i have to adapt to their playstyle or simply leave the game. What is that good for ? I am a paying customer, i do lfm's, i lead raids, i guide newbies - why is their life better when im not in this game anymore (lesser players - lesser lag ?) I dont want to take away their precious new Challenge - i just want to opt out when i solo, and maybe i will opt in from time to time just for the fun too.
But forcing me to play long quests with a chance to simply die a random death - oh common ... there are quests with random traps, i know - thats why i have a spot item on; traps and spells that can kill me - evasion; super high dc spells - improved evasion; crits - fortification (above heavy fort ofc); Deathspell - Deathward; Levelstealing - Talisman; Beholder - attack from behind ... and and and ... u can learn that ... but there is no way to prevent 6000 damage (or 800 damage in WW or Catacombs)
This is the same as a lag death, a stuck in loading screen, a powercut, BSOD ... and i dont have a party at hand to raise me (i solo, simply because i must ... i am in a different timezone).

The Devs have said nothing yet ... thats bad: so the high numbers are not bugs, they are WAI ... and thats good: because they are discussing atm i guess
so yes i will wait a few days or weeks, doing something different meanwhile and see where that goes. i will not deinstall the game so fast - i love it too much.
But the devs need to read that there is more than one opinion and that some players are really disturbed.

OptIn/OptOut - IS the best way to handle this ... dont force players ... dont kick permadeathers / wayfinders / non-rushhour-timezoners from the game

[Blastyswa]

Would rather like to see monster champions tuned down, assuming we won't have them removed completely, in epic levels. Have taken hits of 500-600 damage on EE currently with the new update, and when enemies have true seeing, it's rarely only one hit. Parroting countless others here in the next statement, but would like to see:
-Rewards increased.
-Offensive buff amounts decreased, mostly defensive/utility buffs.
-Buff abilities scaled back.
-Ability to disable champions for a quest.
It would be a logical assumption that someone will reply to these suggestions, as expressed by myself among others, with the fairly uniform answer of "Go to an easier difficulty (optional "newb" remark here)"; however, that answer would be quite flawed. Firstly, this game has been developed with the basic idea that anyone, with proper gearing and skill, can handle Elite difficulty. Because of how long this has been the case, rewards have been developed mostly around the assumption that players will be playing on that difficulty, and the populace has grown accustomed to the ability of their characters to be able to handle this difficulty. With so many things based around the playing of elite difficulty, some of which include sagas, gear values, bravery bonus, and elite first time completion bonus, simply having every character who did not have an excess of power to begin with having a further disadvantage would result in the majority of players now being behind in gear and leveling, which would further increase this gap. This concludes my first argument for the above suggestions to be implemented. Secondly, this new system is one that does not seem to have been asked for. The majority of the player base is busy doing one thing. Playing the game. The players that actively express a desire for an additional difficulty, or added difficulty across the board, represent a minority of people in the game. Adding in something that will affect players across the board, as due to the above rationale there is much more reason to play on the highest difficulty you can manage than on normal or below, based purely on the desire of a minority of players to have added challenge, is not the best decision. This concludes my second point. Thirdly, these changes have been stated to be a reaction to the increased power creep of recent updates. Power creep that did little to nothing beyond how the game was already balanced. After the addition of melee power, there wasn't suddenly an increase in two-man Thunderholme raids. The addition of MRR and the adjustment of PRR did not suddenly and magically cause pure paladins to solo Mark of Death. No one was looking at the impending hamp changes and logically thinking that this was finally the chance to solo EE Haunted Halls on their two-handed fighting first life barbarian. These feats were only being undertaken, as it was, by builds that either have a massive advantage over other builds, or by players that simply have the ability to play at those levels. Not every character, upon these changes, suddenly became incredibly overpowered. The changes simply brought previously niche builds into a situation where they could be of more use. If any of these abilities were being used in ways that were contradictory to a fairly level playing field, then that ability itself should have had reductions/restrictions applying to it that remove the problem. The solution, instead, appears to be to introduce an entirely new, barely tested, not widely asked for system that most definitely has the potential to drive away a large number of the players, especially those who only wish to be left to play the game. Change to simple game mechanics is good. Change that radically changes how you have to play the game is not. Finally, it is almost guaranteed, upon reading over this argument, or that of another echoing the same points, the statement will be issued that the champion system is not incredibly powerful. The problem with that is, any build that was already in excess of power simply has that excess apply to the champions. This means that for those builds, it's simply casting one or two more magic missiles under the effects of shiradi, or firing one more manyshot slayer arrow. However, for anyone not playing a min-maxed cookie-cutter build, the champion system instead means jumping away from a usually non-difficult enemy, desperately trying to heal, going for displacement clickies before realizing that the opponent ignores them, and then dying as an attack goes past non-functioning AC and PRR rating that is not absolutely optimal, landing a critical on your 150% fortification character. Reevaluation of this potentially fun, but poorly implemented system is vital in the goal of keeping this game exceptional.

[brian14]

Depths of Despair hard. Granite did not drop an extra chest -- just the usual one you can see in the screenshot:

[Lerl]

On elite difficulty, almost 50% of the mobs that spawn are champions. That is too many for duo/trio groups.

[ezmeweatherwax]

The one-shotting isn't just happening in EE, it is happening in heroic elite. I brought in a 1100hp L28 toon with 205% fortification and was hit for 928 CRITICAL damage by a crowned mob. Granted, we are talking pure rogue, a class largely ignored in the passes going out to issue durability improvements to other classes, but her prr is 57 so it's not nonexistent at present. How is 928 CRITICAL ok in a heroic level quest, elite or otherwise? I think it'll be funny when the first leveling toon without real gear gives it a go, but still. We were just in to grab quick favor to finish out the 5k thing for tomes and one of the new quests took an hour because of this ****. On heroic.

My ranger buddy running with me had about 600ish hp, 125% fort, 0prr, at L25 and was getting one-shot to -798 hp, confirmed in the combat log as hits for 4 digits worth of damage. He's a newer toon and has some work to do with that toon, but still, in heroic?

HEROIC ELITE. Not epic. Let me emphasize that point. These are crowned mobs in HEROIC level quests bypassing over 200% fortification to do some serious critical damage.


I'm all for making things more difficult. As a pure rogue who cannot heal worth a **** while in mid-combat I also welcome any encouragement for a return to some old-school divine casting and cc in ee, but this is ridiculous. Heroic feels like epic atm.

[brian14]

Really?? REALLLY? What dev thought putting two (528hp & 545hp) Whelps in the Collaborator ( a lv 3 quest on elite) that cast, mixed in with the other mobs was going to make lv 1 player happy. Ran again on Normal (no more elite streaks for me I guess) and had 2 300+ whelps and two 300+ hp humans all in the same spawn in the first room.

You were getting champions on Normal?? That directly contradicts Release Notes.

Just to be sure, I ran Depths of Despair again, this time on Normal. No champions, and Sslysk had only 69 hp. BTW, I got the same odd message with The Eater again:

[dontmater]

seeing some of the HP these mob have at lv 2, almost makes me want to break out the large guild augment gear and TR

[Sehenry03]

I really don't think the Dev's expected the champions to be doing THIS much dmg especially in Heroic levels. Let them tone it down.

Why do people always assume that when an update comes out it was ALL meant to happen? It wasn't like this on Lammania so not sure what happened.

I am betting that they will address withijn a few days and they will cut the amount of champ spawns in half and will cut the damage output a lot.

If not within a few days still soon.

[dunklezhan]

Heroic Hard

Raised a few bug reports for champion mini boss chests spawning directly underneath them in the scenery where they can't be looted. Happened a lot in druid's deep chain, presume there is just a shell of 'forest floor' over an empty flat plane, and it's misreading where the forest floor layer it.

Raised a bug report for willowisp champion with electricity vulnerability on it - of course it's completely immune to electricity because it's a willowisp so you may want to look at how these are calculated unless you want to leave it it cos it's funny.

[dunklezhan]

Maybe a gold fireshield aura instead?

Ooh... I like that idea. The crowns are a bit odd. Visible though, which is the point. But magical golden auras might look pretty cool.