Monster Champion Feedback

[Nestroy]

People are still having problems with champs 11 months later?

Thanks, I needed a good laugh today.

If you happen to find the wrong champ and you are on an edge difficulty for your toon, you run into severe problems. ToEE on EE champ archers hitting for 2k damage AFTER PRR is applied? Happens. Archon quests champ Red Abishai oneshoting a MRR 100 toon? Has happened. Not too often, actually. But happens.

Since champs seem to be very random, you may meet all and everything from harmless meatbag (or even the strange harmless champ on half hit points - my harmless favorite) to one-shot-killers. Even if those are rare, thank god.

[Basura_Grande]

People are still having problems with champs 11 months later?

11 months later and the concept of Champions hasn't gotten any less stupid, so what else do you expect?

[dunklezhan]

My honest experience: I play mostly heroic and Champs are the about the only thing that kill me if I'm not paying attention. They should stay. When I see a pack of mobs with no champ, its an entirely different feeling to when I see a pack with one or more champs in it. It makes you change tactics - you kill the champ first, or you make sure you don't pull it. I definitely engineer things to remove that threat whether it be avoiding it whilst I deal with everything else or killing it first. That was the goal.

The crowns are still immersion breaking (I have not really understood why the plotline justifies a floaty crown) and I hate them. Especially the way they give away stealthed mobs and such. I would much rather see them with something like a gold (or other distinctive colour) fire shield to reflect the creature bursting with unnatural remnant energy, flaring off randomly. Not a fixed crown shape.

I know nothing about the loot. I haven't even been to look at it.

Edit: just went to look at loot on wiki. Still too expensive for anything that I actually want, I might if I'm lucky have a thousand remnants by now, although to be honest that's assuming I've been accumulating at the same rate I did in the few months after the first nerf which reduced the numbers of champs you find and their potency, and that was the last time I bothered to consolidate and check (I had so disappointingly few I instantly put them on my 'do not bother to track or you'll just feel like you're grinding' list). If the drop rate has improved, maybe I have more spread out over my characters than I think I do.

Edit: 3698 so way better than I thought... and still /meh. That's a couple of augments maybe, assuming that is you do get to pick and it isn't another random reward, and assuming I bother, I don't usually bother with augments because that relies on you having some piece of appropriate gear you don't expect to outlevel soon and the augments you want are too expensive to be disposable like that. Some lasting elixirs? Yeah, I could actually buy a few of those for multiple characters, so that might be nice. Or I could not bother and just forget about it again. The nice stuff is still several years away even I don't spend anything now.

I think my point is that the loot doesnt' matter. Champs should still stay because if you are not a DDO God like many people who post here, they do make you consider your approach and what tactics to use, and that is good. But I do wish they would do something about those awful crowns.

[Thrudh]

My honest experience: I play mostly heroic and Champs are the about the only thing that kill me if I'm not paying attention. They should stay. When I see a pack of mobs with no champ, its an entirely different feeling to when I see a pack with one or more champs in it. It makes you change tactics - you kill the champ first, or you make sure you don't pull it. I definitely engineer things to remove that threat whether it be avoiding it whilst I deal with everything else or killing it first. That was the goal.

This. Champions are awesome...

[bls904c2]

Difficulty of champions is a directly tied to 2 things. Knowledge of the player and Epic past lives.

with knowledge of quests, builds and monsters a first life toon has no problems with champs they are just a speed bump.

epic past lives requires no skill to play the quests.

i gave use of my toon, completionist, to my son 6 year old to play from level 1 to epics. as i played his brand new first life toon, my son no knowledge of half of the quest had 0 problems, though he had to raise me a few times from being one shotted by champs. i died a total of 9 times in heroics by champs.

my son can not even do hard difficulty on any heroic quest on a first life toon but hand him a heroic completionist with 11 epic lives and all of a sudden he is king of elite on heroics.

champions are dumb because they only make the game more challenging for those who already don't need the challenge. for those who need a challenge, really do they really make the content more challenging. adding 2 minutes to your quest completion time does not mean it challenged you, it just slowed you down a step. when was the last time you where truly challenged in this game.

what they need to do is get rid of champs and nerf epic past lives. i have to say more then half of the power creep comes from the past lives.

more magic, more hit points, more prr, more mrr, better saves, better element protection, more healing amp list is very long.

i worked hard for a stronger toon by playing many past lives. but we should not penalize the casual player or the new folks coming in because our toons are so much stronger.

yes i would like a challenge but i would like to see it in a new difficulty tier. not driving out the casuals not scaring off the new people, by making the hard and elite difficulty harder.

if you really want a challenge lets nerf the past lives and the epic destinies you will see what epics are like for quite a few players.

[Basura_Grande]

champions are dumb because they only make the game more challenging for those who already don't need the challenge. for those who need a challenge, really do they really make the content more challenging.

This guy gets it, how the devs don't is disturbing.

[Qhualor]

Difficulty of champions is a directly tied to 2 things. Knowledge of the player and Epic past lives.

with knowledge of quests, builds and monsters a first life toon has no problems with champs they are just a speed bump.

epic past lives requires no skill to play the quests.

i gave use of my toon, completionist, to my son 6 year old to play from level 1 to epics. as i played his brand new first life toon, my son no knowledge of half of the quest had 0 problems, though he had to raise me a few times from being one shotted by champs. i died a total of 9 times in heroics by champs.

my son can not even do hard difficulty on any heroic quest on a first life toon but hand him a heroic completionist with 11 epic lives and all of a sudden he is king of elite on heroics.

champions are dumb because they only make the game more challenging for those who already don't need the challenge. for those who need a challenge, really do they really make the content more challenging. adding 2 minutes to your quest completion time does not mean it challenged you, it just slowed you down a step. when was the last time you where truly challenged in this game.

what they need to do is get rid of champs and nerf epic past lives. i have to say more then half of the power creep comes from the past lives.

more magic, more hit points, more prr, more mrr, better saves, better element protection, more healing amp list is very long.

i worked hard for a stronger toon by playing many past lives. but we should not penalize the casual player or the new folks coming in because our toons are so much stronger.

yes i would like a challenge but i would like to see it in a new difficulty tier. not driving out the casuals not scaring off the new people, by making the hard and elite difficulty harder.

if you really want a challenge lets nerf the past lives and the epic destinies you will see what epics are like for quite a few players.

around the same time Champions were first introduced we had the barb pass. I rolled up a first life barb on a different server since my character slots were full starting at level 1 and ran elite Korthos and low level MP quests with only gear from the quests and no ship buffs. it was a little more challenging, but wasn't too difficult for me. keep in mind this was before Champions were nerfed down and before they were removed from low levels.

the more past lives you have the easier it can be, not just Champions, but against any mobs. the only Champions now that pose a real threat are the ones that deal spike damage and fort bypass. when epic past lives first came out, I did give my opinion though that they shouldn't work in heroics, but I was in the minority. the best way to deal with Champions is to treat them like any other mob. a hobgoblin Champion is just as easily tripped, CC'd, insta killed, danced, beat down, charmed or whatever as a non Champion hobgoblin. the biggest difference is the random boosts and hit points Champions get.

I have always been a firm believer that if a player cant handle a higher difficulty they should be doing it on a lower difficulty. DDO also has grouping options that are available to all players that can make the difficulties easier to get through. the game should not have to change on higher difficulties for players that struggle when there are options available to utilize. changing the game like that may help the casual or lesser skilled players, but it reduces the challenge for those that want it eventually making "the game is too easy" and "casual vs vet" drama topics of the week every week.

[archerforever]

if you really want a challenge lets nerf the past lives and the epic destinies

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO AND NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO !!!!

Are you crazy ? what is your problem seriously ? Nerf all the work we did to get completionnist ??? Nerf all the work we did to get epic past lifes ???? Nerf epic destinies when 75% are already trash ???

Just add a difficulty higher than Elite and stop saying that we need a nerf cause we are stronger than casual/new players, your post is the worst thing I have ever seen.

[Robbenklopper]

What is a casual Player? I don´t expect someone logging in 1-2 times per week for a total of 2 hours to have the same "Level" like someone playing every day for months/years. You differ in experience, PL, Build-experience, gear, quest-knowledge.
The approriate difficulty for someone like a "casual" Player is casual or normal so he can zerg through. If you can´t handle higher difficulties or "can´t run elite" - you´re not ready for. Try to accept that and work on, but end the crying. Just accept it or click EH instead of EE if you don´t want champs or lesser or not risking to get killed. The same Counts for Newbies. It´s totally ok that they´re squirting the daisies if they have not clue or lesser experience with quests or whatever. Champs are fine, we can die yes ... but this doesn´t scratch my ego.

[sjbb87]

Seriously ...
that some people want to nerf PL and ED? for balances with new players to quest ... "Epic elite" or "Heroic Elite"?
First ... a beginner player must play just normal, and hard maximum. My first life I was playing only normal.
If anyone here thinks this struggling ... search of "new equipment" and past lifes .... And if you still think this bad ... sorry ... but the problem is that you are weak .. .
Change your build or search more about the game ....
And another detail ... DDO is made to play in groups. .. call more friends to play and learn.

About the champion... its just ok
Just think very expensive the item for the exchange of Mysterious Remnant

[Braegan]

If you happen to find the wrong champ and you are on an edge difficulty for your toon, you run into severe problems. ToEE on EE champ archers hitting for 2k damage AFTER PRR is applied? Happens. Archon quests champ Red Abishai oneshoting a MRR 100 toon? Has happened. Not too often, actually. But happens.

Since champs seem to be very random, you may meet all and everything from harmless meatbag (or even the strange harmless champ on half hit points - my harmless favorite) to one-shot-killers. Even if those are rare, thank god.

Sounds about right then. A challenge can happen, folks all too quickly forget how old contend and old even pre motu epics would crush a character in seconds. I am glad some challenge is being brought back, albeit bite size pieces atm...

11 months later and the concept of Champions hasn't gotten any less stupid, so what else do you expect?

And sadly the player base hasn't grown any more intelligent...

[Nestroy]

Sounds about right then. A challenge can happen, folks all too quickly forget how old contend and old even pre motu epics would crush a character in seconds. I am glad some challenge is being brought back, albeit bite size pieces atm...
(...)

The main problem is the sheer randomness, bundled with really challenging champs beeing far and in between. That happens perhaps once in 10 or so quests. Most of the time the champs are nothing else than meatballs soaking up time (to kill) and SP (if applicable). The second problem is that I cannot tell which champ is the one from hell and which are just plain little meatballs. The more that one hell ball is annoying. Because of the randomness involved.

I do not mind quest failure. I mind quest failure due to circumstancial randomness. And if I treat each and every champ like the one out of hell, I just do waste resources. So either I waste my playing time on champs not doing more than the proverbial gnat or else risk random failure because I oversee the 1:1000 champ posing a threat. Better would be to see from the crowns which champs do much more damage and which not. Better would be having less champs but these beeing much more dangerous. Then the drop rates could be upped too. I hate running quests below quest level with loooots of champs only to get out with 12 remnants in total from one find.

[Braegan]

The main problem is the sheer randomness, bundled with really challenging champs beeing far and in between. That happens perhaps once in 10 or so quests. Most of the time the champs are nothing else than meatballs soaking up time (to kill) and SP (if applicable). The second problem is that I cannot tell which champ is the one from hell and which are just plain little meatballs. The more that one hell ball is annoying. Because of the randomness involved.

I do not mind quest failure. I mind quest failure due to circumstancial randomness. And if I treat each and every champ like the one out of hell, I just do waste resources. So either I waste my playing time on champs not doing more than the proverbial gnat or else risk random failure because I oversee the 1:1000 champ posing a threat. Better would be to see from the crowns which champs do much more damage and which not. Better would be having less champs but these beeing much more dangerous. Then the drop rates could be upped too. I hate running quests below quest level with loooots of champs only to get out with 12 remnants in total from one find.

Unfortunately, randomness is one of the only ways to provide any kind of challenge past the first couple of runs through a zone. Traps, monster spawns, etc. are mostly static and memorized. Once you know what's coming up most of the challenge is removed because you know about it and prepare for it.

[Nestroy]

Unfortunately, randomness is one of the only ways to provide any kind of challenge past the first couple of runs through a zone. Traps, monster spawns, etc. are mostly static and memorized. Once you know what's coming up most of the challenge is removed because you know about it and prepare for it.

I do not mind randomness. I do mind amplitudal extremes. There is random noise and there is random noise. If randomnes follows a close -10/+10 amplitudal noise, this is different from a broader -100/+100 noise. Back to DDO, a champ should pose a minor thread. Not beeing easier than normal mobs (those comming with 1/2 of their hp and not getting much champ hp bonus) to champ from hell (meatball with damage amp + fort bypass + extra saves or whatever). If I get noise from a little better to much better instead of easier to invincible, I prefer the first one. Champs are still mobs after all, not the bosses of bosses.

To my mind, randomness is ok, within closely defined borders. I would love to see champ traps and the like too.

[Vargouille]

I do not mind randomness. I do mind amplitudal extremes. There is random noise and there is random noise. If randomnes follows a close -10/+10 amplitudal noise, this is different from a broader -100/+100 noise. Back to DDO, a champ should pose a minor thread. Not beeing easier than normal mobs (those comming with 1/2 of their hp and not getting much champ hp bonus) to champ from hell (meatball with damage amp + fort bypass + extra saves or whatever). If I get noise from a little better to much better instead of easier to invincible, I prefer the first one. Champs are still mobs after all, not the bosses of bosses.

To my mind, randomness is ok, within closely defined borders. I would love to see champ traps and the like too.

FYI: While there is still a bug where Champions sometimes won't have their full intended hitpoints, they don't have fewer hitpoints than that monster would otherwise have started with, were it not a champion. (They correctly have higher maximum hitpoints, but are incorrectly not getting enough current hitpoints, so their health bar looks like they are injured.)

[IronClan]

I do not mind randomness. I do mind amplitudal extremes. There is random noise and there is random noise. If randomnes follows a close -10/+10 amplitudal noise, this is different from a broader -100/+100 noise. Back to DDO, a champ should pose a minor thread. Not beeing easier than normal mobs (those comming with 1/2 of their hp and not getting much champ hp bonus) to champ from hell (meatball with damage amp + fort bypass + extra saves or whatever). If I get noise from a little better to much better instead of easier to invincible, I prefer the first one. Champs are still mobs after all, not the bosses of bosses.

To my mind, randomness is ok, within closely defined borders. I would love to see champ traps and the like too.

Your Amplitude extremes are my Dynamic range, your noise is my music.

Some of my fondest memories from 30+ years of gaming involve unexpected, and sometimes completely overwhelming scenarios that got handled, sometimes humorously, sometimes amazingly, usually memorably. They created comradery and get re-told over beers 15 or 20 years later. Difficult situations, edge cases, compounding errors, self reinforcing randomness.

Yellows in Diablo with fire chains, and acid spit and the ability to teleport you to them... completely random combo that forged a real life friendship after a night of trying to get our gear back from that bastard.

Retrieving corpses in EQ, and in UO, braving PK's to get back my best friend in real life's future Wife's stuff back to her... I still game with them and the family they had has joined us.

without the contrast created by dire situations all we have is a meh game that is mediocre, has zero unknowns and no possibility to surprise us. In other words no dynamic range, just a normalized signal filled with sonically mediocre monotonic elevator music.

So sad that modern gamers want everything safe and predictable, they literally have no idea what they're missing out on (as an aside I wonder how often the people who hate unpredictable are solo'ers who don't have anyone to help them out when unpredictable happens?). Excitement is literally impossible in DDO... because nothing is unknown and nothing is unexpected. Therefore there is no tension, no suspense and a dullness to this game that I only play past because of the D&D and the Character building.

[count_spicoli]

I do not mind randomness. I do mind amplitudal extremes. There is random noise and there is random noise. If randomnes follows a close -10/+10 amplitudal noise, this is different from a broader -100/+100 noise. Back to DDO, a champ should pose a minor thread. Not beeing easier than normal mobs (those comming with 1/2 of their hp and not getting much champ hp bonus) to champ from hell (meatball with damage amp + fort bypass + extra saves or whatever). If I get noise from a little better to much better instead of easier to invincible, I prefer the first one. Champs are still mobs after all, not the bosses of bosses.

To my mind, randomness is ok, within closely defined borders. I would love to see champ traps and the like too.

Where do champs cause problems? Every group I am in steamroll champs without any hesitation. They have done nothing to make the game more challenging IMO. The original implentation of champs was fantastic and challenging. I really wish they would have stuck with that.

And I love the idea of random champion traps. That would be awesome. Right now most traps are just zerger thru in all content.

[Gabrael]

I usually play more physical builds and have experienced rush of adrenaline when faced with strong champ...

but recently I been playing a caster a bit, and you know what's awesome? Dominating them.

oh yeah, army of champs following me around, turning the champ on their team. I wasted 13 levels trying to gun them down wasting my mana, what a fool I been.

controlling champs is hilarious and awsome

[Braegan]

I do not mind randomness. I do mind amplitudal extremes. There is random noise and there is random noise. If randomnes follows a close -10/+10 amplitudal noise, this is different from a broader -100/+100 noise. Back to DDO, a champ should pose a minor thread. Not beeing easier than normal mobs (those comming with 1/2 of their hp and not getting much champ hp bonus) to champ from hell (meatball with damage amp + fort bypass + extra saves or whatever). If I get noise from a little better to much better instead of easier to invincible, I prefer the first one. Champs are still mobs after all, not the bosses of bosses.

To my mind, randomness is ok, within closely defined borders. I would love to see champ traps and the like too.

Ok so if I read correctly you have less of a problem with champs and more of a problem with how wide the variety can be with how tough/challenging they are/can be? If that is the case I can be on board with recommending other buffs that would still present some challenge while not dwarfing the power of bosses.

Of course this is difficult to gauge because characters handle obstacles differently. My fighter can deal with a champ with great saves and just stand toe to toe and duke it out. My DC casters struggle more in that same scenario. Now replace that higher saves with higher damage output and my Fighter can be in trouble whereas my DC casters will just insta kill them and never come into range where damage output is a concern. It's hard to balance the whole of the game when the game allows so many types of playstyle. Not saying it shouldn't be an effort, just understanding that the struggle is real.

[Seikojin]

FYI: While there is still a bug where Champions sometimes won't have their full intended hitpoints, they don't have fewer hitpoints than that monster would otherwise have started with, were it not a champion. (They correctly have higher maximum hitpoints, but are incorrectly not getting enough current hitpoints, so their health bar looks like they are injured.)

Just an fyi on that bug: If the mob is being hit and taking damage while the champion effect is not applied, it will gain champion without refilling its hitpoints, having the not full situation.