Monster Champion Feedback

[slarden]

The Champion system was not designed to provide people with remants. The system was put in place because Turbine wanted to raise the difficulty level of Hard and Elite. It had gotten to easy.

Your contention that Champions have caused a decrease in population is just speculation that holds no water. I know more people that came back or continued to play because of champions than left.

I know far more people that left becaue the game got too easy and boring.

I think any contention that people are returning to the game because of champions is definitely speculation - I haven't seen one case of that. Something like MOD EE is much more challenging than champions and most of the people with all the past lifes and gear on Sarlona don't want to run that.

I just question whether champions are doing what they are intended to do since they effectively only challenge low-PRR characters. I was leading an EE PUG Orchard run almost every day for about 2 months and I can tell you the average player isn't finding EE easy. I see alot of people die and I see people sitting at -500 or higher after getting hit from a champion.

The combination of armor up and champions broke the game for people with low PRR that don't have several divine/PDK past lifes. Fortification used to be an equalizer that prevented damage spikes for low PRR characters but there is a specific debuff that eliminates only that layer of protection. The PRR debuff in TOEE could have been done right to target PRR as a percentage, but it was done as a fixed # so again this debuff specifically hurts players with low PRR much more.

I don't really care what Turbine does with champions, but I think the system is very flawed and limits build diversity for people that want to run EE. For some people, having to TR to make a champion-friendly build is not something they want to do.

The only true measure Turbine has about whether champions are driving away casual players is revenue. If revenue is down there likely was an impact of champions as casual players tend to spend more $ per hour playing than hardcore players. Their loss isn't as apparant on total playtime #s since they tend to play less than the hardcore players.

If revenue is up or neutral then it's unlikely champions are driving away casual players.

[Impaqt]

I think any contention that people are returning to the game because of champions is definitely speculation - I haven't seen one case of that. Something like MOD EE is much more challenging than champions and most of the people with all the past lifes and gear on Sarlona don't want to run that.

o.O how can you claim personal observation and experience to be "speculation"? I know people who cam back to the game because of champions. just like some people know folks that quit because of champions. I may question the motivations, but its got nothing to do with speculation.

I just question whether champions are doing what they are intended to do since they effectively only challenge low-PRR characters. I was leading an EE PUG Orchard run almost every day for about 2 months and I can tell you the average player isn't finding EE easy.

GOOD! thats exactly what the system was supposed to do!

I see alot of people die and I see people sitting at -500 or higher after getting hit from a champion.

and? they obviously were not prepared.

The combination of armor up and champions broke the game for people with low PRR that don't have several divine/PDK past lifes. Fortification used to be an equalizer that prevented damage spikes for low PRR characters but there is a specific debuff that eliminates only that layer of protection. The PRR debuff in TOEE could have been done right to target PRR as a percentage, but it was done as a fixed # so again this debuff specifically hurts players with low PRR much more.

not sure of the point of getting into this again, but getting a 100 Prr is pretty darn easy. and if you are not going for PRR, you just have to think about your playstyle. things like, Dont try to be a Tank with no PRR....

I don't really care what Turbine does with champions, but I think the system is very flawed and limits build diversity for people that want to run EE. For some people, having to TR to make a champion-friendly build is not something they want to do.

I see plenty of diversity still.

The only true measure Turbine has about whether champions are driving away casual players is revenue. If revenue is down there likely was an impact of champions as casual players tend to spend more $ per hour playing than hardcore players. Their loss isn't as apparant on total playtime #s since they tend to play less than the hardcore players.

If revenue is up or neutral then it's unlikely champions is driving away casual players.

and since that info is unavailable, people resort to anecdotal evidence as "proof", or make wile claims based on their own sense of entitlement.

[slarden]

o.O how can you claim personal observation and experience to be "speculation"? I know people who cam back to the game because of champions. just like some people know folks that quit because of champions. I may question the motivations, but its got nothing to do with speculation.

After your comments on the guild system changes a few years ago I definitely view your comments with alot of skeptism. Anyone can claim anything on the forums.

not sure of the point of getting into this again, but getting a 100 Prr is pretty darn easy. and if you are not going for PRR, you just have to think about your playstyle. things like, Dont try to be a Tank with no PRR....

Then you should have no problem breaking down that easy 100 PRR for a rogue first lifer in shadowdancer. Please do so.

and since that info is unavailable, people resort to anecdotal evidence as "proof", or make wile claims based on their own sense of entitlement.

I have no concerns about what Turbine does with the champion system as I have both the time and resources to make any character adjustments I need to quickly. Even my rogue does just fine in EE with champions after getting some divine/PDK past lifes.

What I said is that revenue is a very significant indicator on how Turbine is doing with respect to casual players. I have a strong basis there to believe that casual players spend alot more relative to time spent in game compared to hardcore players. I suspect Turbine realizes that too.

I have no idea what #s are, but if there is a big shift up or down it would be a good indicator of how casual players are reacting to recent game changes - the champion system probably being the biggest thing that impacts daily playing. It doesn't matter what you or I think - I think turbine has a strong understanding of where their money is coming from. They can also data mine as needed when their revenues increase or decrease. If revenue is up they are on the right track. If revenue is down they are on the wrong track.

If revenue is neutral - the champion system had no real impact which is what I suspect to be the case.

I see plenty of diversity still.

I see more diversity from the various class passes but everyone is shifting toward high PRR builds.

[Impaqt]

After your comments on the guild system changes a few years ago I definitely view your comments with alot of skeptism. Anyone can claim anything on the forums.

well, thats VERY different than calling it "Speculation". If you think I'mlying for some reason, then just say that. dont cal it something that doesnt make sense.

Then you should have no problem breaking down that easy 100 PRR for a rogue first lifer in shadowdancer. Please do so.

That would fall more under my "Dont try to be a tank with no PRRt" comment. Rogues should NOT be pulling aggro.

Still, even in Light armor, 40-60 PRR is stupid easy

Light armor and a Sheltering item put you in the Mid 40's for a 30% reduction in incoming damage.

I have no concerns about what Turbine does with the champion system as I have both the time and resources to make any character adjustments I need to quickly. Even my rogue does just fine in EE with champions after getting some divine/PDK past lifes.

so why do you think a first lifer with little gear should be able to perform the same as you in difficult content?

What I said is that revenue is a very significant indicator on how Turbine is doing with respect to casual players. I have a strong basis there to believe that casual players spend alot more relative to time spent in game compared to hardcore players. I suspect Turbine realizes that too.

I have no idea what #s are, but if there is a big shift up or down it would be a good indicator of how casual players are reacting to recent game changes - the champion system probably being the biggest thing that impacts daily playing. It doesn't matter what you or I think - I think turbine has a strong understanding of where their money is coming from. They can also data mine as needed when their revenues increase or decrease. If revenue is up they are on the right track. If revenue is down they are on the wrong track.

If revenue is neutral - the champion system had no real impact which is what I suspect to be the case.



I see more diversity from the various class passes but everyone is shifting toward high PRR builds.

thats more because gaining PRR doesnt really take that much of an effort.

And I think there are far more people running around in EE with 40-60 PRR than there are 100+.

[slarden]

not sure of the point of getting into this again, but getting a 100 Prr is pretty darn easy.

Rogues should NOT be pulling aggro.

Still, even in Light armor, 40-60 PRR is stupid easy

It doesn't matter if rogues pull aggro or not - they are going to take damage from champions at times. They will get one-hit sometimes where a paladin playing stupid will never get one-hit.

The system doesn't challenge high PRR builds at all and low PRR builds face one-shotting.

I don't care what Turbine does because I can adapt. I just think all the complaints in here are very legitimate because the system itself is flawed as it negates fortification entirely through one debuff which makes PRR the only form of mitigation against megacrits.

PRR is the biggest easy-button this game ever had. It has nothing to do with skill.

[Impaqt]

It doesn't matter if rogues pull aggro or not - they are going to take damage from champions at times. They will get one-hit sometimes where a paladin playing stupid will never get one-hit.

The system doesn't challenge high PRR builds at all and low PRR builds face one-shotting.

I don't care what Turbine does because I can adapt. I just think all the complaints in here are very legitimate because the system itself is flawed as it negates fortification entirely through one debuff which makes PRR the only form of mitigation against megacrits.

PRR is the biggest easy-button this game ever had. It has nothing to do with skill.

Maybe true,

But that paladin being played stupid is still going to die more often than a well played rogue.

[FranOhmsford]

Maybe true,

But that paladin being played stupid is still going to die more often than a well played rogue.

And the people who play both Great or Bad or Just OK?

How many times do I have to say that appeals to either/or scenarios are weak arguments?

It's not about the great player on a Pure Rogue vs the terrible player on whatever the Flavour of the Month Build is!

It's about making sure the 75% of players who fall into neither category are kept happy!

If that leaves the great players bored then we need a REAL End-Game for them to play!

[Hafeal]

o.O how can you claim personal observation and experience to be "speculation"?

The speculation is that your personal observations are true to the entire player base.

Still, even in Light armor, 40-60 PRR is stupid easy

Light armor and a Sheltering item put you in the Mid 40's for a 30% reduction in incoming damage.

I have not been digging around Heroic lives for a while but I am not aware of many Heroic sheltering items. Are there any? I think champions are bigger headache on Heroic because it is really hard to find groups not running Elite.

But that paladin being played stupid is still going to die more often than a well played rogue.

In my static group, which includes several players who only play once or twice a week, Champions can be tough but we still manage to handle many EE quest - sometimes with deaths. One of them is a Paladin and he does quite well - often surviving well with his PRR and MRR - so it does make a significant difference.

Funny enough, I like the champions. It is cause for concern. My static group also does not mind the 'risk' of death at all - especially if we are playing EE. And if a quest is too much, we back down to EH.

One of our hardcore players in guild, with 30 past lives, running a tree build, takes champions carefully at times (Lich Avengers in Ghosts, for example) because even the best can be 1 shotted. Does he mind? No - he wants it harder - he has 30 **** past lives and very little in the game can kill before he can crit for 7k - 72k. Seen it. Crazy stuff.

Now, should the game be built around his build? NO. But casual players going and doing EE, on their 1st life, should expect to die and be challenged. I think champions *help* bring some risk back to the adventure.

[Thrudh]

getting a 100 Prr is pretty darn easy.

Breakdown please.

[Impaqt]

And the people who play both Great or Bad or Just OK?

Deaths have more to do with the player behind the keyboard than the build of the toon.

How many times do I have to say that appeals to either/or scenarios are weak arguments?

you can say it untill the cows come home. doesnt make it true.

It's not about the great player on a Pure Rogue vs the terrible player on whatever the Flavour of the Month Build is!

terrible players on Flavor of the month builds still die.

It's about making sure the 75% of players who fall into neither category are kept happy!

If that leaves the great players bored then we need a REAL End-Game for them to play!

The need for an end game is a completely separate issue, and is in no way related to Champions.

[slarden]

Maybe true,

But that paladin being played stupid is still going to die more often than a well played rogue.

Possibly true in some cases, but skill doesn't trump all benefits derived from build. This balance issue will be worse when the level cap is 30.

Effective HP is HP/(1-DR)

When the level cap is 30 Paladins with their +6 con for 3 AP and 20% HP boost and possibly 20% HP from unyielding sentinel are going to be able to withstand many more hp of damage and therefore champs will need to hit harder.

The rogue will gain much less effective HP using the same HP/(1-DR) formula because their DR is lower and their HP boosts are lower. I think the problem with fortification bypass will be even more significant when the level cap is 30 in order to properly challenge the paladin.

I find the concerns raised by many people in this thread to be legitimate even though I like champions overall and would like to see them remain in the game. I just think certain balance issues related mostly to PRR should be addressed. One debuff - complete fortification bypass is responsible for the largest damage spikes based on my experience.

[Impaqt]

Possibly true in some cases, but skill doesn't trump all benefits derived from build. This balance issue will be worse when the level cap is 30.

Effective HP is HP/(1-DR)

When the level cap is 30 Paladins with their +6 con for 3 AP and 20% HP boost and possibly 20% HP from unyielding sentinel are going to be able to withstand many more hp of damage and therefore champs will need to hit harder.

The rogue will gain much less effective HP using the same HP/(1-DR) formula because their DR is lower and their HP boosts are lower. I think the problem with fortification bypass will be even more significant when the level cap is 30 in order to properly challenge the paladin.

I find the concerns raised by many people in this thread to be legitimate even though I like champions overall and would like to see them remain in the game. I just think certain balance issues related mostly to PRR should be addressed. One debuff - complete fortification bypass is responsible for the largest damage spikes based on my experience.

meh. I think our differences stem from the fact that I feel its totally OK for mobs to be able to one shot us every once in a while.

There is no significant consequence to dying in DDO. I feel that element of danger is good for the game.

[FranOhmsford]

Deaths have more to do with the player behind the keyboard than the build of the toon.

Not every death is due to the player, Not every death is due to the toon!

We can argue forever about exact numbers but there's no point as neither of us have exact numbers!

Even the best players die!

you can say it untill the cows come home. doesnt make it true.

What's not true about the statement I made exactly?

Arguing Either/Or scenarios is a weak argument!

terrible players on Flavor of the month builds still die.

And great players still die too!

If you're only differentiating between players based on deaths then I feel sorry for you!

The need for an end game is a completely separate issue, and is in no way related to Champions.

No...It's the same exact issue!

Because Champions were a direct response from the Devs to End-Game players complaining about the game being too easy!

We didn't need Champions in Heroic or even Epic Quests - What we needed and STILL NEED is an actual End-Game for those players to play!

[Impaqt]

Not every death is due to the player, Not every death is due to the toon!

We can argue forever about exact numbers but there's no point as neither of us have exact numbers!

Even the best players die!

I never said "every". so whats your point?

What's not true about the statement I made exactly?

Arguing Either/Or scenarios is a weak argument!





And great players still die too!

If you're only differentiating between players based on deaths then I feel sorry for you!

and I never once said "only".

No...It's the same exact issue!

Because Champions were a direct response from the Devs to End-Game players complaining about the game being too easy!

We didn't need Champions in Heroic or even Epic Quests - What we needed and STILL NEED is an actual End-Game for those players to play!

The 2 are absolutely not mutually exclusive. Are you really trying to claim its not possible to have an End game AND still have higher difficulty content while leveling? That makes no sense.

I totally agree that we need a better "end game" in DDO. But I also Love the Champion system as its currently implemented and do not see it as an attempt at an end game. I've never once seen a dev claim that champions were supposed to be ant sort of end game.

[slarden]

meh. I think our differences stem from the fact that I feel its totally OK for mobs to be able to one shot us every once in a while.

There is no significant consequence to dying in DDO. I feel that element of danger is good for the game.

You are missing the point, the issue is not one-shotting, although I think if you took a poll in-game most players do not like getting one-shotted.

I find it problematic because the "one-shotting" is only certain builds with low PRR while high PRR are completely immune to any of the dangers from champions.

If they removed the fortification bypass and replaced it with mortal fear I would be ok with it because this wouldn't be build specific and 2 quick mortal fear procs would kill anyone. I don't like that the system favors high PRR builds so strongly.

[Gljosh]

You are missing the point, the issue is not one-shotting, although I think if you took a poll in-game most players do not like getting one-shotted.

I find it problematic because the "one-shotting" is only certain builds with low PRR while high PRR are completely immune to any of the dangers from champions.

If they removed the fortification bypass and replaced it with mortal fear I would be ok with it because this wouldn't be build specific and 2 quick mortal fear procs would kill anyone. I don't like that the system favors high PRR builds so strongly.

Wait I though this was the trade off High PRR or High dodge?

Lets look at a level 28 full BAB character (using DDO wiki formula and armor proficiencies, no other bonuses)

PRR Mitigation Dodge Cap Total Mitigation
Cloth 0 0 25 25
Light 28 22 4~25 26~47
Medium 46 30 1~12 31~42
Heavy 70 41 0~6 41~47



So cloth is the weakest, light gives the best of pretty much all worlds PRR, Dodge, Evasion (if applicable), and more AC then cloth. The real kicker is that if you have the "free" 36 PRR it just bumps you up one armor category (being in cloth would give close to light armor dependent on BAB). So a Wizard/Sorc would have poor armor selection (can bump), poor BAB (can bump), and poor HP (can bump).

[slarden]

Wait I though this was the trade off High PRR or High dodge?

Lets look at a level 28 full BAB character (using DDO wiki formula and armor proficiencies, no other bonuses)

PRR Mitigation Dodge Cap Total Mitigation
Cloth 0 0 25 25
Light 28 22 4~25 26~47
Medium 46 30 1~12 31~42
Heavy 70 41 0~6 41~47



So cloth is the weakest, light gives the best of pretty much all worlds PRR, Dodge, Evasion (if applicable), and more AC then cloth. The real kicker is that if you have the "free" 36 PRR it just bumps you up one armor category (being in cloth would give close to light armor dependent on BAB). So a Wizard/Sorc would have poor armor selection (can bump), poor BAB (can bump), and poor HP (can bump).

This doesn't account for damage spikes that low PRR builds will face but high PRR builds will not face. Regardless of other forms of damage avoidance, the big hits low PRR builds face will result in deaths. Nothing on the first life paladin I built could kill me in EE. Nothing could threaten me.

You also need to understand the difference between two very different concepts:

Damage Avoidance: Dodge, AC, Blur, Displacement, Ghostly, Evasion
Damage Mitigation: Fortification, PRR, MRR, Improved Evasion, Damage Reduction

Damage avoidance means you will be hit less but when you look at all the forms there is very little difference between light and heavy armor builds once you do all the multiplication. If you try to mix damage avoidance and damage mitigation you come up with an average, however, the variation is much larger on a low PRR build because of the damage spikes and that problem will become worse at level 30 unless Turbine decides not to worry about high PRR builds being challenged.

Damage mitigation means you prevent incoming damage and since champion damage spikes is all about PRR this is where high PRR builds win. Fortification is the biggest way low PRR builds have to prevent damage spikes form crits. There is a buff that eliminates this layer of protection, but nothing that eliminates PRR so this makes PRR and high HP the only form of protection against megacrits.

[Maelodic]

This doesn't account for damage spikes that low PRR builds will face but high PRR builds will not face. Regardless of other forms of damage avoidance, the big hits low PRR builds face will result in deaths. Nothing on the first life paladin I built could kill me in EE. Nothing could threaten me.

This- this is why I am really frightened to play my monk in EE content. After playing a pally and having high PRR, everything got considerably less frightening. My monk is still awfully afraid to be hit, and even with a high dodge, displacement clickies, and shadow fade, it's still rather terrifying to take a hit.

Damage Avoidance: Dodge, AC, Blur, Displacement, Ghostly
Damage Mitigation: Fortification, PRR, MRR, Evasion, Improved Evasion, Damage Reduction

Hate to nitpick, but evasion should be under avoidance and improved evasion should be under mitigation. I know, I know- I'm a bad person.

[Cardoor]

...
I see plenty of diversity still.
...

I don't. In the last EE pug I joined I was the only character who was not a paladin. That is not an exaggeration.

Champions reduce build diversity in EE quests, less so in EH/EN or heroics.

The bigger problem is that they have not in one single instance made any quest more fun for me. In fact, every time I notice myself not having fun it is because a champion has made player skill less important than cookie cutter combat centric builds or have ruined any creative way to finish a quest other than hack and slash - kind of boring for me really.

If people really wanted more challenge they should just solo the shroud and fight Harry alone or something instead of ruining every other quest with champions.

[Impaqt]

Breakdown please.

already been discussed.
http://ddowiki.com/page/Physical_Resistance_Rating