Monster Champion Feedback

[Braegan]

So what? Broken mechanics are broken and definitely not fun, if you spend large amount of time and consumables and then get randomly smashed like this. Especially if solo.

I agree with Sehenry. Dying once running 20~ EE quests is hardly something to complain about, let alone get angry over. I guess having 99% success rate is too low?

[Qhualor]

In rusted blades last night I was one shot by a champ for 1300. I have 135 prr! I did a lot of ee's last night probably around 20, and it only happenend the one time. That one time was enough to make me want to throw my mouse against the wall.

yeah, im still waiting for a Champion to hit me for 1000+ damage in one hit in epics and I have far less PRR.

[Rys]

I agree with Sehenry. Dying once running 20~ EE quests is hardly something to complain about, let alone get angry over. I guess having 99% success rate is too low?

I have said many times I want the game harder. But this does not bring any challenge what so ever. At least not for me and pretty sure not even for the people I regulary run with. I gladly fail quests if either I make a crucial mistake or the quest is challenging itself because of the smart fights that require some kind of tactics.

I still think this is a lazy fix to the introduction of PRR and MRR and I always have to smile when I see a random trash mob doing more damage than the end/raid boss

[Zasral]

I agree with Sehenry. Dying once running 20~ EE quests is hardly something to complain about, let alone get angry over. I guess having 99% success rate is too low?

I was grouped most of Sunday. I died multiple times I think every time to champions. The only time all day I was angry about was the one shot. A broken mechanic is wrong, anyway you try and justify it. By the way with 135prr there were several champs that hit me for 600-800 threw out the day. If it was a char with 50 prr would have been one shots.

[Braegan]

I have said many times I want the game harder. But this does not bring any challenge what so ever. At least not for me and pretty sure not even for the people I regulary run with. I gladly fail quests if either I make a crucial mistake or the quest is challenging itself because of the smart fights that require some kind of tactics.

I still think this is a lazy fix to the introduction of PRR and MRR and I always have to smile when I see a random trash mob doing more damage than the end/raid boss

Well clearly there is a divide I attribute mostly to folks not accurately knowing and reporting why they are getting these one shots. I certainly haven't seen them, but then again if I see I got tagged with a bunch of stacks of vulnerable I back off for a second. Tactical Retreat as it were...hey it's tactics it even has it in the name!

I often see this change labeled as lazy. I completely disagree. It would have certainly been easier/lazier to just buff mobs, remove scaling, a number of other things rather then develop a new system meant to provide challenge with a reward (still hoping for improvements) system in place. So no, I disagree completely, this was not lazy. Other methods would have been much easier. I think the devs wanted to introduce something new and fun and were hit with a massive wall of resistance based mostly on self-entitlement.

I was grouped most of Sunday. I died multiple times I think every time to champions. The only time all day I was angry about was the one shot. A broken mechanic is wrong, anyway you try and justify it. By the way with 135prr there were several champs that hit me for 600-800 threw out the day. If it was a char with 50 prr would have been one shots.

And do you recall exactly why you were one shot? Did you have stacks of Vulnerable? Were you Held, Stunned? Did you have your Haggle Item on instead of something else?

I disagree that it's a broken mechanic. It's extremely rare (by your own examples) that you face a sudden death situation.

Surely getting one one-shot out of 2000~ isn't really that big a deal is it?

[Rys]

Well clearly there is a divide I attribute mostly to folks not accurately knowing and reporting why they are getting these one shots. I certainly haven't seen them, but then again if I see I got tagged with a bunch of stacks of vulnerable I back off for a second. Tactical Retreat as it were...hey it's tactics it even has it in the name!

I often see this change labeled as lazy. I completely disagree. It would have certainly been easier/lazier to just buff mobs, remove scaling, a number of other things rather then develop a new system meant to provide challenge with a reward (still hoping for improvements) system in place. So no, I disagree completely, this was not lazy. Other methods would have been much easier. I think the devs wanted to introduce something new and fun and were hit with a massive wall of resistance based mostly on self-entitlement.

First of all, I could use any kind of tactics if I could actually tell from the first look what buffs the champion has. As it is now (the way how the examine window works, I can't afford to target the champion and examine him)so I just treat each champion like a plague and either avoid them by running past or kill them from 50 metres away. So no, for me it brought zero challenge and zero need to use any kind of tactics.

On the lazy fix. I still disagree with you, I see you disagree with me and that's fine. I think introducing PRR the way it is now was a mistake in the first place and just invalidated that little bit of content we had. It has already started with EDs, continued by introducing immensely powerful gear and so on and so on and they don't seem to stop.

[Sehenry03]

yeah, im still waiting for a Champion to hit me for 1000+ damage in one hit in epics and I have far less PRR.

Yep. I have 150PRR when I play my druid. I play EE all the time and in fact just did another EE orchard run with EH MoD after. Was not 1 shotted at any point. They did kick my ass since I was lvl 26 and I did die a lot in Inferno but it was always multiple hits never just 1. I have been playing a lot the last 6 days since I had vacation so I played a lot of EE as well as a lot of HE content and on 4 different toons. Was not 1 shot at anytime. I like the champions...they have become just more trash mobs though. I play Mheka who is a crappy build Bard8/Fighter9/Rogue1 who has good gear for TRing. He just did all of GH on HE and never came close to dying. He would pull half the dungeons when possible then just jump in the middle and cleave everything to death. He would have 5-10 champs on him at a time and never be in much danger and he is NOT self healing except with cure serious pots. he had around 800 hp's at lvl 16 since he was a dwarf con build with stalwart defender so he drinks a crapton of those pots but he never drops below half often using this tactic. Did Tor on HE solo and normally those mobs at the beginning can kill people easy but again he was never in any danger a nd was easily able to pot heal. he never got hit for more then a few hundred at a time even from Champs. Will be doing LoD chain and Vale tonight to get to 20 and TR again.

I hear about people getting 1 shotted yet it never happens to me. Occasionally I will be grouped with a newer player and I will see them drop dead quick but to be fair they are usually playing wiz/sorcs with like 130hp's at 17 or so and anything can kill them on HE easy.

Yes I know Mheka has an extreme amount of HP's and that's one of the reasons he has not been 1 shotted but my point is he never even gets to half health. I play my sorc at 16 who has a lot less HP's but he never gets 1 shotted either. Show champs the respect and drops them first.

I hope they bump champs back up a bit though it was a lot more exciting the first few days they were released.

[Braegan]

First of all, I could use any kind of tactics if I could actually tell from the first look what buffs the champion has. As it is now (the way how the examine window works, I can't afford to target the champion and examine him)so I just treat each champion like a plague and either avoid them by running past or kill them from 50 metres away. So no, for me it brought zero challenge and zero need to use any kind of tactics.

On the lazy fix. I still disagree with you, I see you disagree with me and that's fine. I think introducing PRR the way it is now was a mistake in the first place and just invalidated that little bit of content we had. It has already started with EDs, continued by introducing immensely powerful gear and so on and so on and they don't seem to stop.

Absolutely, using the examine window in live combat is just not a reality. However, tactics like using CC, terrain, choke points, etc still work on Champs regardless of the buff they have on them. It hasn't brought a whole heck of a lot of challenge to me either, but it has brought some fun back for me.

We will agree to disagree on the terminology of lazy fix. I do agree the way PRR was changed was flawed. IMO it should have been done on Class Enhancements and some Racial Enhancements. Basing it solely off armor and gear has allowed for the silliness of pure wizards walking around in full plate and other classes giving up on class features like evasion just to "Armor Up!" Fighters and Paladins should have the highest PRR/MRR through enhancements like Stalwart. Barbs, Monks (I hate to give Earth Stance yet another boon, but it makes sense) should have slightly lesser. Wizards and Sorcs should have no bonus. Certain races like WF/BF and maybe Dwarf could have had some racial bonus as well.

In case I wasn't clear. I don't mean that other classes should have zip, zero, nadda PRR at all! I am saying the old system could have been left in place and buff the classes that both needed it the most (due to lack of other defenses) as well as the intended target of the buff. That way yes a wizzy or sorc could have their say 50~ PRR like they used to have and only heavy melee classes get the boost via enhancements.

[Rys]

Absolutely, using the examine window in live combat is just not a reality. However, tactics like using CC, terrain, choke points, etc still work on Champs regardless of the buff they have on them. It hasn't brought a whole heck of a lot of challenge to me either, but it has brought some fun back for me.

We will agree to disagree on the terminology of lazy fix. I do agree the way PRR was changed was flawed. IMO it should have been done on Class Enhancements and some Racial Enhancements. Basing it solely off armor and gear has allowed for the silliness of pure wizards walking around in full plate and other classes giving up on class features like evasion just to "Armor Up!" Fighters and Paladins should have the highest PRR/MRR through enhancements like Stalwart. Barbs, Monks (I hate to give Earth Stance yet another boon, but it makes sense) should have slightly lesser. Wizards and Sorcs should have no bonus. Certain races like WF/BF and maybe Dwarf could have had some racial bonus as well.

In case I wasn't clear. I don't mean that other classes should have zip, zero, nadda PRR at all! I am saying the old system could have been left in place and buff the classes that both needed it the most (due to lack of other defenses) as well as the intended target of the buff. That way yes a wizzy or sorc could have their say 50~ PRR like they used to have and only heavy melee classes get the boost via enhancements.

Well yeah the worst problem I have with this is that the PRR is too strong and almost everyone can get pretty high numbers. It made every quest a joke and the attempt to bring a new challenge with champions wasn't successful at all in my eyes. PRR should have been adjusted instead imo.

[psykopeta]

Well yeah the worst problem I have with this is that the PRR is too strong and almost everyone can get pretty high numbers. It made every quest a joke and the attempt to bring a new challenge with champions wasn't successful at all in my eyes. PRR should have been adjusted instead imo.

i expected from prr to have some relation with bab and enhancements

the thing is: equip heavy armor, that's... 100prr and 70mrr? ok, so 50% physic and 40% magic?

something that way, doesn't matter if it's a ml1 armor (*** they gotta be kidding)

[slarden]

Instead of ignoring all fortification, it should either ignore the first 100% of fortification - or fort bypass and critical hits should be mutually exclusive (if it ignores fort, it cannot crit).

Yep and there should be additional buffs that ignore 80% of PRR and MRR so heavy armor isn't so much of a champion easy button.

[Monkey-Boy]

Just get rid of the fort bypass, it's dumb. After that Champs are tolerable.

having a "Celestia" buff that bypassess PRR deserves a little thought.

[Oxarhamar]

Instead of ignoring all fortification, it should either ignore the first 100% of fortification - or fort bypass and critical hits should be mutually exclusive (if it ignores fort, it cannot crit).

That seams a little backwards.

If it ignores fort it cannot Crit?

Since fortification ONLY protects against Critical hits what would ignored fort mean?

[Sierim]

That seams a little backwards.

If it ignores fort it cannot Crit?

Since fortification ONLY protects against Critical hits what would ignored fort mean?

Vulnerability to sneak attack damage.

[8rad]

The nerfs have pretty much made Champions ineffective. Just more trash to smash.

First run after introduction party was wiped. Heart was racing, blood was pumping. We recalled, regrouped, discussed the the dungeon and our tactics. Went back in with a plan and completed with one death I think. It was fun.....

Now it is just as it was before. No thought, no communication, no planning, no tactics required.

[slarden]

That seams a little backwards.

If it ignores fort it cannot Crit?

Since fortification ONLY protects against Critical hits what would ignored fort mean?

It treats it as though you have 0 fortification so fortification gives no protection against critical hits. That is my understanding of how the buff works.

[MangLord]

At this point, I doubt anyone in charge still reads this thread, but I'd really like the True Seeing buff to not be as ubiquitous as it is. It's generally fine, but certain quests make this mechanic a nightmare.

I think two of the hardest EE quests for a melee, particularly my swashbuckler that utilizes a lot of displacement and ghostly effects to avoid damage, are Belly of the Beast and House of Rusted Blades. The blademasters are my worst nightmare. I just can't complete those quests anymore, even at level 27-28. I'm mostly able to take them out slowly while running away for constant healing, but eventually they'll catch me with that poison paralysis and I'm dead in less than a second.
One champion blademaster is pretty challenging, but there's always more than one, and when they can all benefit from each others' buffs, namely True Seeing, I just die instantly regardless of an active cocoon, a secondary quickened/empowered heal and fairly solid twitch skills.

The only times I ever have real trouble with the champions is when they have true seeing or the vulnerability debuff, and they have friends to help them out. When that happens, I usually die so fast it seems instantaneous. I was hunting for an EE Ring of Shadows and died the second the enemies spawned. I have no idea what happened, but there was a Shadow champion in the group and I had just enough time to see it before I died. Level 27 with full health, full buffs, while sitting on consecrated ground. There's just no time to react to the situation, and it feels like a cheap sucker punch that I paid money to receive. LOL

It really feels like more of a cheap shot when I die because there's no way I can avoid it, or even have time to react. I appreciate that my friends can raise me after the fact, but it's very frustrating when I have absolutely no answer for the situation.

I'm currently sitting at level 27 with 95ish prr, 27% dodge, almost 1k hp while in Divine Crusader, with about half of my ETRs done and all my choice gear farmed except for a Falling Darkness buckler. I'm not sure what else to do.

[TitusOvid]

So I made my way from 1 to 20 again and I have to say, champs can really hurt on the lower lvls say 1-8. I got some good gear for Tr'ing so for adventurers it could go a little higher up. The obvious change for me is, wear fortification asap. Everything else can be managed. But I am pretty sure, that peeps without experience of the game mechanics will get discouraged soon. And I am talking about the ones paying money and doing quests on elite the first try...
So I am not quite sure what Turbines strategy is but all in all I don't think it works like intended.

my 2 cents.

[JOTMON]

So I made my way from 1 to 20 again and I have to say, champs can really hurt on the lower lvls say 1-8. I got some good gear for Tr'ing so for adventurers it could go a little higher up. The obvious change for me is, wear fortification asap. Everything else can be managed. But I am pretty sure, that peeps without experience of the game mechanics will get discouraged soon. And I am talking about the ones paying money and doing quests on elite the first try...
So I am not quite sure what Turbines strategy is but all in all I don't think it works like intended.

my 2 cents.

That was what Turbine wanted.. to scare people away from Elite until they were well prepped, geared, experienced.
Elite lost its scariness a long time ago and these changes are the attempt to bring it back.

Even hard wasn't hard.. when's the last time you said ****.. that hard level was hard.. or I am no way near ready to try that on elite.. after running a quest a couple times on normal.

Elite should sent most people at level running away with their tail between their legs.
as a new player I would expect that.
I would always try the harder difficulty get my ass handed to me, figure out what I needed to change to be able to succeed in future.
If I succeeded on Elite, I moved onto the next highest challenge until I was unsuccessful.
If the whole game was too easy, I would go find another game.

[DnDo-Lemau]

If this were true I would not have cancelled my VIP subscription.

The answer is simple 1. Get rid of the Champions from heroic level quests entirely 2. Remove scaling from all quests and leave it set to the highest 'scale' 3. Remove level restrictions from heroic quests.

That way the Elitists can create their own challenge and brag how they solo'ed The Pit elite on a Level 3 toon or they 2 manned Heroic elite Stormhorns chain on level 12 toons. Then those of us that elite at level is challenge enough will be happy and the elitist's will have their extreme challenge. I don't want to be an elitist I just want to enjoy the game I have paid for in the past and will happily pay for in the future if a change like this was made.

Pretty much all of this. I stopped having fun (and therefor stopped playing and unfortunately canceled my VIP as well, sorry) when the champion monsters were kicking my Monk's backside. Characters on Heroic aren't specced for Champions when they travel in groups and come with debuffing party (HE Whisperdoom comes to mind). Turbine could've just souped up the difficulty of the regular monsters instead of the Champions. HE quests don't really pose a challenge by themselves anymore, but with so few PUGs and generally not the quests I need to do, it has now become all but impossible to complete my completionist. Not that it mattered, since he was only in his 5th life, but any hope I had of completing more challenging lives are now completely lost unless I manage to build a character so specifically built for cashing tons of Champion damage that it isn't good at being offensive anymore. Good luck doing that with healers.