Monster Champion Feedback

[Vulkoorex]

Ok everyone knows I like Champions...but here's a questions for everyone -

How many people in the last week have been TRULY 1 shotted?

I don't mean hit 10 times in a row from 1 volley and killed. I don't mean force missiles that hit 20 times and crit and kill.

How many people have TRULY been at full health and hit ONE time by a mob and killed? What class and armor were you wearing?

I don't mean anything condescending about this question I am really curious as to how often it happens and what classes are hurt the most. I play a Druid and an Arty and a Paladin right now in every level range from 9-28 and none of them have been 1 shotted. Now I have been brought to -400 health after a volley of attacks and I tend to go back through my combat log to see what killed me but even that is rare.

So again...if people will answer...how many have been truly 1 shotted? What class were you playing? What armor/shield if any did you have on? What was it that killed you at what level?

No more 1 shot (I only got 1 shot just after U24 and before the hotfix).

Since I'm now having to play Heroic Hard at level or Heroic Elite over level by 2 (which I think I get a -10% xp). I'm not wasting my playing time to die in Elite anymore.

[Thalone]

whats a proper undead beater you are using? yes, that's a serious question. I see bludgeon damage and it appears like a GS triple pos but not seeing the damage in combat log to suggest triple pos. what is your build? I see monk levels, but are you proficient with a maul?

I was going to post a long reply addressing your comments on heal amp, how completely nondangerous water elementals are, and why the minority of the actually dangerous champions not having a tell is a bad idea--all stuff I have already addressed in my previous two posts. But it's not worth arguing with you. Does anyone run a melee not proficient with mauls? And even if I'm not proficient, it does not at all affect the main damage number, the only information provided in the picture.

Sigh.

[Qhualor]

I was going to post a long reply addressing your comments on heal amp, how completely nondangerous water elementals are, and why the minority of the actually dangerous champions not having a tell is a bad idea--all stuff I have already addressed in my previous two posts. But it's not worth arguing with you. Does anyone run a melee not proficient with mauls? And even if I'm not proficient, it does not at all affect the main damage number, the only information provided in the picture.

Sigh.

thanks for addressing your build for me to better understand why your dps is low.

[Impaqt]

A raise at level 4? I gues they would need to find a shrine.

Because they were level 4..

thats what I said int he first response. I wasnt expecting 4-6 to have an actual raise dead spell. I figured that was understood.

There are 2 res shrines in Irestone... Neither is difficult to get to.

They went to a shrine once everything in the vicinity was dead.

That sounds much different than

But at least I could spend the rest of the quest in someone's backpack, so much fun!

so you spent a couple minutes in a back pack (no big deal.)

not

you spent "the rest of the quest" in a back pack.(Someone thought you were useless)

again..... doesnt really sound like a big deal to me.

[Keladon]

Ok everyone knows I like Champions...but here's a questions for everyone -

How many people in the last week have been TRULY 1 shotted?

I don't mean hit 10 times in a row from 1 volley and killed. I don't mean force missiles that hit 20 times and crit and kill.

How many people have TRULY been at full health and hit ONE time by a mob and killed? What class and armor were you wearing?

I don't mean anything condescending about this question I am really curious as to how often it happens and what classes are hurt the most. I play a Druid and an Arty and a Paladin right now in every level range from 9-28 and none of them have been 1 shotted. Now I have been brought to -400 health after a volley of attacks and I tend to go back through my combat log to see what killed me but even that is rare.

So again...if people will answer...how many have been truly 1 shotted? What class were you playing? What armor/shield if any did you have on? What was it that killed you at what level?

You might actually want to read the last few posts of this thread. I was just talking about getting 1shot. (Yes, 1 hit, 100% hp to dead)
I was wearing a robe/outfit on a multiclass monk, high AC + concealment as main defense. (Not going to wear heavy armor on a monk..) 16 Starting con, because con is not a dumpstat!
It was a hobgoblin that killed me at level 5.

Like I said, it doesn't happen often but the fact that it still happens is just frustrating, it's not challenging and it's not fun.

Just please don't tell me to wear heavy armor because that would prove champions have killed build diversity.

[Vulkoorex]

You might actually want to read the last few posts of this thread. I was just talking about getting 1shot. (Yes, 1 hit, 100% hp to dead)
I was wearing a robe/outfit on a multiclass monk, high AC + concealment as main defense. (Not going to wear heavy armor on a monk..) 16 Starting con, because con is not a dumpstat!
It was a hobgoblin that killed me at level 5.

Like I said, it doesn't happen often but the fact that it still happens is just frustrating, it's not challenging and it's not fun.

Just please don't tell me to wear heavy armor because that would prove champions have killed build diversity.

I've been told to play a different class. Like I have any LR+20 hearts or want to spend tp to buy hearts to accommodate the Monster Champions.

[Keladon]

thats what I said int he first response. I wasnt expecting 4-6 to have an actual raise dead spell. I figured that was understood.

There are 2 res shrines in Irestone... Neither is difficult to get to.


That sounds much different than



so you spent a couple minutes in a back pack (no big deal.)

not

you spent "the rest of the quest" in a back pack.(Someone thought you were useless)

again..... doesnt really sound like a big deal to me.

It looks like you just love assuming, don't you?

I died during the last fight.. so I spend the rest of the quest in a backpack. (they had to talk to an NPC to finish the quest)

And you're talking about spending time in a backpack.. because that's what this thread is about right? It's not about champions at all.. oh wait.
Maybe I should go off-topic when I see something I don't like either.

I also wasn't the only one who thought you meant raise when you said 'raise'. But at least now I know you don't mean 'raise' when you say 'raise'.

[Sehenry03]

You might actually want to read the last few posts of this thread. I was just talking about getting 1shot. (Yes, 1 hit, 100% hp to dead)
I was wearing a robe/outfit on a multiclass monk, high AC + concealment as main defense. (Not going to wear heavy armor on a monk..) 16 Starting con, because con is not a dumpstat!
It was a hobgoblin that killed me at level 5.

Like I said, it doesn't happen often but the fact that it still happens is just frustrating, it's not challenging and it's not fun.

Just please don't tell me to wear heavy armor because that would prove champions have killed build diversity.

I wasn't responding to you or anyone else specifically and I didn't say anything about needing heavy armor...lets not go the assume route here. I simply asked what people WERE wearing when they got 1 shot.

People keep saying how being 1 shotted sucks. it does I get that. What I am trying to see is...how often does it happen. if it happens once every 10 quests...well then...really? If its more I am curious but if it is once every 5 or 10 or 20 quests then why even bring it up at all? That is rare enough to not care about. If it is once or twice each quest then yeah I get its a problem. The reason I ask what people are wearing is because I have my Paladin...obviously he won't get 1 shotted much but I also have an arty with no armor feats and he doesn't get 1 shotted either. I was wondering what people are wearing when being 1 shotted.

BUT if people are seriously being 1 shotted once every 10+ quests why are we even discussing it? That is 1 shotted in what...10000+ attacks or more? I could care less if that happens I will pick myself up and do it again if that's it.

I just wish people would lay off the 1 shotted bandwagon if this is the case.

now the meatbags I am with ya all the way on this one. UP to 5x the hp's MAX I get...7-10x which I still find is bad enough but 7-10x the hp's WITH damage resist sucks...but I still want the champions even with this and I have no issues waiting while they fix it. hopefully they do.

[Keladon]

I wasn't responding to you or anyone else specifically and I didn't say anything about needing heavy armor...lets not go the assume route here. I simply asked what people WERE wearing when they got 1 shot.

People keep saying how being 1 shotted sucks. it does I get that. What I am trying to see is...how often does it happen. if it happens once every 10 quests...well then...really? If its more I am curious but if it is once every 5 or 10 or 20 quests then why even bring it up at all? That is rare enough to not care about. If it is once or twice each quest then yeah I get its a problem. The reason I ask what people are wearing is because I have my Paladin...obviously he won't get 1 shotted much but I also have an arty with no armor feats and he doesn't get 1 shotted either. I was wondering what people are wearing when being 1 shotted.

BUT if people are seriously being 1 shotted once every 10+ quests why are we even discussing it? That is 1 shotted in what...10000+ attacks or more? I could care less if that happens I will pick myself up and do it again if that's it.

I just wish people would lay off the 1 shotted bandwagon if this is the case.

now the meatbags I am with ya all the way on this one. UP to 5x the hp's MAX I get...7-10x which I still find is bad enough but 7-10x the hp's WITH damage resist sucks...but I still want the champions even with this and I have no issues waiting while they fix it. hopefully they do.

Like you said, let's not go the assume route here.
I was only pointing out that I just had a 1shot experience and that while heavy armor would have probably saved me, it's not really an option for a monk.

And are you saying we shouldn't discuss this because it doesn't happen often enough?

About the HP boost, does beating on a monster longer really add fun or challenge.. or even difficulty? I get that they can have twice as many hp's, but that's about it for me.
Champions like this actually give people a reason to 'invisi-zerg'.

[Impaqt]

It looks like you just love assuming, don't you?

no, just going by the little info you gave us.

I died during the last fight.. so I spend the rest of the quest in a backpack. (they had to talk to an NPC to finish the quest)

So you spent 2 minutes in the backpack. What exactly was the problem? The rest of the group finished the quest right?

And you're talking about spending time in a backpack.. because that's what this thread is about right? It's not about champions at all.. oh wait.
Maybe I should go off-topic when I see something I don't like either.

well, you brought up the backpack thing. I'm just saying a death here and there isnt a big deal.

I also wasn't the only one who thought you meant raise when you said 'raise'. But at least now I know you don't mean 'raise' when you say 'raise'.

if people decided you were more of an asset in someones backpack rather than taking the 20 seconds to get you close to one of the 2 rez shrines, that seems like a completely different problem to me.

[Keladon]

no, just going by the little info you gave us.

So you spent 2 minutes in the backpack. What exactly was the problem? The rest of the group finished the quest right?

well, you brought up the backpack thing. I'm just saying a death here and there isnt a big deal.

It's like you completely forgot what this thread or my post was about.

But because you asked: The problem is dying in 1 hit, going from full hp to dead in 1 hit, that's the problem.
And not on a CON dumped toon with the least hp possible either, I had 23 CON at lvl 5.

Also:

Why didnt they raise you then?

I also wasn't the only one who thought you meant raise when you said 'raise'. But at least now I know you don't mean 'raise' when you say 'raise'.

[Impaqt]

It's like you completely forgot what this thread or my post was about.

This thread is about Champion feedback. You are upset because a champion can "one shot you". I think its awesome that champions can one shot you.. Or me.. Or the uber player with 75 past lives.... thats MY feedback.

But because you asked: The problem is dying in 1 hit, going from full hp to dead in 1 hit, that's the problem.
And not on a CON dumped toon with the least hp possible either, I had 23 CON at lvl 5.

Also:

Yup. I heard ya. I just think its great. it means GROUPS in a group based game are WAY more important. It means we might DIE when we are soloing and have to release and come back.. Just like Pre MotU!

RE: the rez quote...

that was after my first comment. so whatever... Not losing any sleep over you misconstruing my comment.

[psykopeta]

It is not referent to Monster Champion, but now I understand when some people says DDO have "dated graphics". At least my DDO looks much better than those pics, and it is running at DX9.

cool, im running at dx10

guess you don't know why am i playing with that graphics (i have to manually draw stuff lower than the lowest ddo sets for you)

and better graphics won't do ddo (or any game) more appealing to me, fyi when i came to ddo i was expecting turn based d&d with similar graphics to baldur's gate, which you coul play multiplayer btw

PS: to continue with the thread, old champions were good, new champions suck, in both cases that dumb randomness (a npc that won't ever fight is just silly, doesn't matter how you try to explain it) sucks even more

i mean... you know the spellwards in FR that send you crates as "enemies" in most cases you will get 1 champ if not 2

which proves again how silly is the randomness

[Wizza]

That giant in tracker's trap lasts maybe 2 hastes boosts on a group with good DPS. On a groups with bad DPS . . . ugh.

I'll start another thread with what should be done to add challenge as that's a whole other rabbit-hole we can get lost in.

That makes my point. More HP and/or more damage does not make mobs any more challenging.

We need smarter fights and we need a HUGE varierty of buffs on Champions, which I already suggested but Developers ignored it so idc. About the first point, smarter fights, we need fights like WGU, Study in the sable, Terminal Delirium (without the amplified damage that gets you one-shotted), Wiz King with added difficulty from Heroic.

We don't need another Trackers Trap's Giant with 350k and no real threat.

[Daitengu]

Ok everyone knows I like Champions...but here's a questions for everyone -

How many people in the last week have been TRULY 1 shotted?

I don't mean hit 10 times in a row from 1 volley and killed. I don't mean force missiles that hit 20 times and crit and kill.

How many people have TRULY been at full health and hit ONE time by a mob and killed? What class and armor were you wearing?

I don't mean anything condescending about this question I am really curious as to how often it happens and what classes are hurt the most. I play a Druid and an Arty and a Paladin right now in every level range from 9-28 and none of them have been 1 shotted. Now I have been brought to -400 health after a volley of attacks and I tend to go back through my combat log to see what killed me but even that is rare.

So again...if people will answer...how many have been truly 1 shotted? What class were you playing? What armor/shield if any did you have on? What was it that killed you at what level?

I (and the rest of the group) was one shot 11 times in a single quest (terminal delirium on eh behind the mirror). Class and armor dont really matter since the damage ranged from 2k to 4k. Most combination dont survive that.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Turbine should make our hirelings/summons/pets Champions also lol....maybe they would not stand in the lava and yell ...."Heal me!" as a cleric hireling. Though I do like it when they drop extra loot and renown.

[slarden]

This thread is about Champion feedback. You are upset because a champion can "one shot you". I think its awesome that champions can one shot you.. Or me.. Or the uber player with 75 past lives.... thats MY feedback.

I think it's a stupid mechanic. There is nothing challenging about getting one-shotted it simply results in meta-gaming which I am already starting to see. Especially since most of the one-shotting is from physical damage. PRR/MRR is the new evasion - that is not a challenge it's a respec.

[slarden]

I (and the rest of the group) was one shot 11 times in a single quest (terminal delirium on eh behind the mirror). Class and armor dont really matter since the damage ranged from 2k to 4k. Most combination dont survive that.

The devs stated Terminal Delreium is considered an extreme challenge and working as intended. It's no coincidence I never see lfms for that quest.

[nibel]

guess you don't know why am i playing with that graphics (i have to manually draw stuff lower than the lowest ddo sets for you)

I don't know and don't care why you want to run the game at textures so low as that. It was just a surprise that DDO graphics could go THAT low. It was nothing personal to you.

That makes my point. More HP and/or more damage does not make mobs any more challenging.

We need smarter fights and we need a HUGE varierty of buffs on Champions, which I already suggested but Developers ignored it so idc.

Even since the original epics, I think the devs should stop with the "only higher number" buffs. This don't make a special challenge, just forces you to also have higher numbers. Challenge is achieved when the game forces you out of your common strategy because it becomes inefficient.

Second Wind is the only buff right now that I think achieve this. Yeah, it is a "more damage" buff, but the fact that it only trigger at a specific point, and is short lived means you can work around it (block/run during the buff timer). Having a visual tell for them is mandatory to achieve that. Currently you only know a mob has, let's say, Fire resistance, if you hit it with fire damage.

IMO, there should be three buff lists: "Hard Buffs", "Elite Buffs", and "Miniboss Buffs", and every champion monster get one hard buff on hard, one hard and one elite on elite (two buffs total), and orange-named mobs get an additional buff form the miniboss list.

Hard is supposed to be a solo challenge, or party standard difficulty. So, those buffs should have no blanket immunities, and in general should give some slack for people soloing them. Things like 50% damage type absorption (only one type), blur, increased damage (+50% damage on hit or casting), increased toughness (+100% HP), Greater Heroism (extra saves, immunity to fear), second wind, etc.

Elite is supposed to be a party challenge, so it should NOT be solo friendly. sure, some people might still prefer to run them solo for a challenge, but since it is party-based, you can start going nuts on blanket immunities as buffs, since even if you make a melee useless, he have the rest of the party to fall back into. Things like 100% damage type immunity (only one type), Displacement, "I hit hard" (+100% damage on hit or cast), incredible resistance (+100% HP, DR [CRx2]/Random [Silver, mithral, law, evil, bludgeoning, anything]), Impervious Reflex (+99 Reflex, don't fail on a 1, Evasion), Impervious Fortitude (Ditto), Impervious Will (Same), Epic Ward (Lionheart, Protection from Evil, Deathward, Nightshield. All dispellable), "Buffed" (Bless, Haste, Rage, True Seeing, Greater Heroism, Shield of faith, Barkskin. All dispellable), etc.

Boss pack are things that will make the boss more dangerous by empowering their minions. Thing buffs like the dogs from LoB, the sigils from Magister (but centered on the boss and following him around), or the healing aura from the scorpions in Claw of Vulkoor.

[Impaqt]

I think it's a stupid mechanic.

And you are welcome to that opinion.

There is nothing challenging about getting one-shotted it simply results in meta-gaming which I am already starting to see.

Its not about that particular champion being "challenging" or not. Its about the elevation in overall quest risk.

Especially since most of the one-shotting is from physical damage. PRR/MRR is the new evasion - that is not a challenge it's a respec.

DDO's been about metagaming since its inception. Kinda by design since quest repetition is part of the gameplay.