Monster Champion Feedback

[Keladon]

You should probably just reroll to paladin /sarcasm off

I probably should. Chances are I would've survived that hit as a paladin.

[Qhualor]

I really sympathize with you here, but from the other side as it were. I think champions are fine. I can understand the nerf to champions as it applied to hard difficulty settings, but I don't see why there should have been any nerf to elite settings. I am pretty baffled by reports I see on the forums of people who say champions have made elite quests way to difficult. People talk about getting one shot killed as if it was happening constantly, or they suggest the damage output is so high they might as well be one shot killing. I have been running a lot of heroic quests with basically brand new players the last few weeks, and we run quests with almost as much difficulty as I would have expected prior to the existence of champions. There is a noticeable increase in difficulty, but I haven't seen anything like what so many people seem to describe. Yesterday my noobie friends and I completed an elite Caverns of Korromar on 6th level characters in a 3 man party. The only time anyone got instakilled was by the non-champion beholder at the end. Some of the other named monsters were champions, but we were able to handle them okay. I don't suspect people posting about their frustrations with champions are lying about what they are going through. However, their experience of the game is so different from mine I really wish I could see video footage of their game play so I could see what is going on. From what they describe, it seems like champions make it impossible for people to run over-level quests on elite. Yet, per impossibile, I have been doing this for the past two weeks with people who know very little about the game. I really have no idea what to make of the reports about how champions being ridiculously overpowered.

Also, I've been seeing a lot of people saying the randomness of champions is a bad thing. I love the randomness. In my view, randomness that matters, that makes an important difference, is essential to the spirit of dnd. We are supposed to by terrified of rolling a 1. We are supposed to be afraid because we know that 1 is an automatic failure which we can do nothing about, and because we know that if we play long enough a 1 is going to fall on us eventually. Bad luck is supposed to cost us in dnd. Monster champions do something to put luck into the game. Putting monster champions in the game is the only thing that has been done in the game to make it feel like dnd for a long time. Monster champions have done more to make this game feel like dnd than the Haunted Halls did.

That's because the forums are full of exaggeration and not like what really happens in game. If you read between the lines you can usually see the root of the problem and often many exaggerated posts are more or less the same. Its part of the reason why I butt heads with so many people here.

[Monkey-Boy]

I probably should. Chances are I would've survived that hit as a paladin.

How much damage was that hit? Asking as though my own over-powered multi-TR toons haven't had any issues in the low-level heroics I've seen some darned entertaining "DINGS" from the pug I've had in my quests.

One thing I saw on korthos that was completely ridiculous was the massive damage absorption proc, my toon has 3x monk and 3x Arcane EPLs but if I didn't I would not have been able to damage it.

Regardless, Champions are garbage. They offer no additional challenge to vets and seem to break to much stuff for new players. remove this broken system please.

Make elite harder in general, up the damage output/HP of all mobs by X%, a little at first and tweak upwards if game is still too easy.

[Keladon]

How much damage was that hit? Asking as though my own over-powered multi-TR toons haven't had any issues in the low-level heroics I've seen some darned entertaining "DINGS" from the pug I've had in my quests.

One thing I saw on korthos that was completely ridiculous was the massive damage absorption proc, my toon has 3x monk and 3x Arcane EPLs but if I didn't I would not have been able to damage it.

Regardless, Champions are garbage. They offer no additional challenge to vets and seem to break to much stuff for new players. remove this broken system please.

Make elite harder in general, up the damage output/HP of all mobs by X%, a little at first and tweak upwards if game is still too easy.

A bit more than 100. Like someone said, being a paladin (wearing heavy armor) would have saved me.
I'm not saying something hit me for 400dmg, that would probably be exaggerating, but that 1 hit was enough to kill me from full hp. I was on a 4th life toon with cannith crafted gear (best +stats etc I could get)
I don't play min/max builds, but I do make sure both offense & defense are my 2 priorities. (this build is more focused on defense - AC, concealment, dodge..)

The bolded part seems to be the impression I'm getting about champions.
When vets keep saying "I hardly notice champions" or "they're too easy", it makes me wonder why they're so "pro-champions".

Like you said, they can just scale everything in elite, it would make for a far more consistent increase in difficulty.

[Wizza]

I probably should. Chances are I would've survived that hit as a paladin.

Random pug in one of my groups. Even pugs think pallies are a joke

Make elite harder in general, up the damage output/HP of all mobs by X%, a little at first and tweak upwards if game is still too easy.

Yeah what this game needs to be harder is up the HP of all mobs. 350k HP giants are not enough hard yo!

[psykopeta]

champions are ok, but please, fire whoever thought that stuff like that makes any sense



i highly doubt they thought about what they were doing before launching it

[TrinityTurtle]

champions are ok, but please, fire whoever thought that stuff like that makes any sense



i highly doubt they thought about what they were doing before launching it

Those are npc creatures in the index too, that's all it is, and occasionally roll for the crown. Sometimes it works out in the players favor, I had a champion rat in Tomb of the Tormented that slaughtered the carcass eats and worgs in one go. And we had a champion dude in Running with the Devils that took next to no damage and ripped through the enemies almost as well as we did.

[Monkey-Boy]

Yeah what this game needs to be harder is up the HP of all mobs. 350k HP giants are not enough hard yo!

That giant in tracker's trap lasts maybe 2 hastes boosts on a group with good DPS. On a groups with bad DPS . . . ugh.

I'll start another thread with what should be done to add challenge as that's a whole other rabbit-hole we can get lost in.

[Impaqt]

This. I even started invisi-zerging with the introduction of champions.

And a champion just killed me in 1 hit in Irestone Inlet..
Lvl 5, 16 starting con (23 total), in pyjama's (dex build). Enough AC (+ blurry) to dodge most of the hits but 1 got through.. It wasn't even a critical hit either

But at least I could spend the rest of the quest in someone's backpack, so much fun!
Ofcourse things like this never happen for "pro champion" players, I'm just the unluckiest player in all of DDO.

Nuisance or frustrating.

no. we just realize that a bad dice roll is part of the game. If you die, its not really that big a deal. We've been mindlessly facerolling through content for years at this point. A little bit of actual danger in a quest just isnt a bad thing.


if people decided you were more of an asset in someones backpack rather than taking the 20 seconds to get you close to one of the 2 rez shrines, that seems like a completely different problem to me.

[Systern]

Ran an EE Trial by Fury last night. 2 spiders, side by side; one champion, one not. Normal Spider: 5,980 HP. Champion Spider: 40,120 hp.


Roughly 7 times the total HP of a non-champion.... Little silly.


Starting to really agree with people that it's silly that random super-trash is more challenging or time-intensive than the end boss.

[Thalone]

Good grief.

The indication of a Champion being more dangerous than another regular mob is the crown.

And what's the indication that the champion is the minority that is actually dangerous rather than just a sack of HPs? I indicated approval of the tell that Second Wind has in my post. Where's the indication that "I am going to completely ignore your fortification" and "I am a Shiradi caster in heroics?"

I've honestly never needed to swap out of my main weapon to something else that might work better. I have seen yellow numbers, but I'm still doing good damage. I have yet to see a Champion immune to any weapon I use. I don't see why we need to know what buffs a Champion has. We have to open a window to see regular mobs buffs if we want. Once you get familiar with what specific mobs have for buffs you just remember what weapons/spells work best. Champions have random buffs but there is a limit and I see more repetition than unique.

I went back in to grab some screen captures. Unfortunately, the combat log doesn't note if it's DR (absolute reduction) or PRR (percentage reduction). But I observed main weapon damage 11-15 on a champion, and 35-45 on a normal. Cleaving would've added +W. My universe doesn't define doing good damage as a 60% decrease in my main DPS when using a proper skelly beater.




It was even worse in lower levels, where I using a proper weapon and was doing low single-digit main damage against some monsters. Woe betide me if it was a required kill, and the new strategy of "leave the thing behind" was impossible.

1500 HP Champions in a level 11-13 quest isn't that bad considering those regular mobs go down quick with our power creep abilities. It still takes just a few more swings to kill the Champions.

A normal skeleton in there has 400-500 HPs. If you have a way of consistently doing 500 damage per swing in heroic, against mobs with base 100% fortification, with DR so we have to use weapons with inherently bad crit profiles, I would love to hear it.

I have had Burning Blood and dots go through my resists too from Champions and regular mobs. If you fail your concentration check, there are pots you can buy from the vendors with no fail concentration checks. That is what I do and manage to stay alive just fine.

Strange you mention pots when my post specifically mentioned I was alternating potting and wanding myself (with 75% wand boost to boot, on a character with three paladin past lives and a ship healing amp buff), and I still would have died if someone else hadn't also been wanding me. Maybe you've got your head stuck in epics where you've got SF pots and more sources of healing amp, but I'm talking heroics.

Elite Spies water elementals hit hard regardless. They always have. As Champions they hit harder, but even with no evasion I haven't had a big problem with them. I'm more annoyed when they move away from where you can melee them and have to get them to come back to you.

Factually false. Fort save + cold resistance + Fire Shield. Evasion doesn't help with water elementals because Frost Lance is a Fort save. The only other time I have ever died in Spies due to a water elemental is when I was distracted typing. When they are turned into Shiradi casters doing extra procs on every damage tick (regardless of if the initial damage tick does damage), it's a little much. I could routinely solo Spies on EE on my casters with six people in the party prior to champion implementation, and still can, except for the instance where a water elemental turns into a Shiradi caster with nearly irresistible extra damage.

I'll reiterate the closing thought I had in my previous post. Challenge is fine, but it shouldn't be uneven or annoying. Similar parties with similar power, running the same quest, using similar strategies, should not have vastly divergent difficulties and completion times. It shouldn't take one party much more time to finish due to having more bags of HP to beat down. One party should not serially wipe due to facing a Shiradi caster while another breezes through with champions only spawning pedestrian buffs.

[Qhualor]

Good grief.


And what's the indication that the champion is the minority that is actually dangerous rather than just a sack of HPs? I indicated approval of the tell that Second Wind has in my post. Where's the indication that "I am going to completely ignore your fortification" and "I am a Shiradi caster in heroics?"



I went back in to grab some screen captures. Unfortunately, the combat log doesn't note if it's DR (absolute reduction) or PRR (percentage reduction). But I observed main weapon damage 11-15 on a champion, and 35-45 on a normal. Cleaving would've added +W. My universe doesn't define doing good damage as a 60% decrease in my main DPS when using a proper skelly beater.




It was even worse in lower levels, where I using a proper weapon and was doing low single-digit main damage against some monsters. Woe betide me if it was a required kill, and the new strategy of "leave the thing behind" was impossible.



A normal skeleton in there has 400-500 HPs. If you have a way of consistently doing 500 damage per swing in heroic, against mobs with base 100% fortification, with DR so we have to use weapons with inherently bad crit profiles, I would love to hear it.



Strange you mention pots when my post specifically mentioned I was alternating potting and wanding myself (with 75% wand boost to boot, on a character with three paladin past lives and a ship healing amp buff), and I still would have died if someone else hadn't also been wanding me. Maybe you've got your head stuck in epics where you've got SF pots and more sources of healing amp, but I'm talking heroics.



Factually false. Fort save + cold resistance + Fire Shield. Evasion doesn't help with water elementals because Frost Lance is a Fort save. The only other time I have ever died in Spies due to a water elemental is when I was distracted typing. When they are turned into Shiradi casters doing extra procs on every damage tick (regardless of if the initial damage tick does damage), it's a little much. I could routinely solo Spies on EE on my casters with six people in the party prior to champion implementation, and still can, except for the instance where a water elemental turns into a Shiradi caster with nearly irresistible extra damage.

I'll reiterate the closing thought I had in my previous post. Challenge is fine, but it shouldn't be uneven or annoying. Similar parties with similar power, running the same quest, using similar strategies, should not have vastly divergent difficulties and completion times. It shouldn't take one party much more time to finish due to having more bags of HP to beat down. One party should not serially wipe due to facing a Shiradi caster while another breezes through with champions only spawning pedestrian buffs.

Champions hit harder and have more hp. no need to focus orb them for that info. the rest is just limited randomness and I approach with caution whenever I encounter a crown. its the same way if you know the strengths of your characters and mobs in quests. if you know you have a weak toon you don't go diving into a pile of mobs.

whats a proper undead beater you are using? yes, that's a serious question. I see bludgeon damage and it appears like a GS triple pos but not seeing the damage in combat log to suggest triple pos. what is your build? I see monk levels, but are you proficient with a maul? I cant quite tell from the screenshot and im seeing a variety of one handed weapons and two handed weapons and archer combat. seems like a Monkcher build? also part of the combat log is missing when fighting a normal mob. looks like the quest The Enemy Within.

granted I did not leave Korthos after running a first life fresh off the boat barb with chest loot gear on elite, but I could see "weaker" dps builds might have a little trouble in low levels bypassing DR. in this case I am questioning the dps in the pics because I was dealing that kind of damage as a level 1/2 barb. with that kind of dps I can see why you would have a problem with mobs at level 11 with 1500 hp.

no. I use CSW pots. none of my current characters have SF favor unlocked for the pots because they are not running lives that would need them. have you ever been triple hit by the spider poison in Spinner? yeah its like that and still stayed alive with just CSW pots. maybe you need some heal amp?

maybe I got my saves mixed up, but the fact is still the water elementals have always been hard hitters. in EE I usually take a few hard hits from them and duck behind something to heal up than go right back to fighting them again. this includes doing lives where I don't invest in Con or play classes that get good fort saves during level ups.

[Sehenry03]

I'm around 100 quests into my current heroic life. I am not blind, and I am not lying. Not only have I never come close to dying in any of those quests, the champions themselves are nothing more than a minor nuisance.

One thing I like about them is that they pretty much destroy invisi-zerging, so that's an excellent feature. The only downside to them virtually all getting true seeing is that concealment is one of our legitimate means of defense. Could we get the ubiquitous true seeing champion buff changed to see invisibility?

They do add value, and the "challenge" they add is in a very smart way. Being able to memorize exactly which mobs are where in quests is the dumb design aspect. Champions correct that dumbness.

This sums up my outlook on champs.

1) I am not blind nor am I lying...I only die while in groups not when I solo. When I solo I play more carefully and take my time. In a group we tend to move fast and when someone dies we just rez and keep going. My guild is a VERY good guild with VERY good players. I lvled from 20-28 recently with guildy's. We did most of Eveningstar and all GH and ALL of it EE. We died a few times but generally we just figured out what we needed to do and we had very few issues. The biggest issues we had was in Tor...I was still updating my quests while a certain guildy...I won't name names (Crummy) started dying left and right and all I heard was "That champ is going down" as the same Champ dropped him probably 3-4 times in a row. After that is went without a hitch. He didn't complain or get mad he just rezzed a few times before he finally got the champ.

2) They don't stop zergers much...slow'em a touch maybe but that's it. Invis zerging is harder but still possible. I do wish they would make every champion see invis to eliminate this.

3) I LOVE that they change things. I want MORE variety. I don't get why people want every quest to be the same EVERY time. How is that fun? This adds variety and challenge. Who cares if you get the one shot occasionally? So you died who the hell cares. Rez and figure out what mob did it and get some revenge. I know when I am grouped and I see a Champ Caster I call him out and everyone zergs him. I say make more of them Shirardi!!! And I wanna see a few melee champs with the masters blitz symbol above his head so I know I'm about to get a big hurt thrown at me!!!!

[BD_]

I'm around 100 quests into my current heroic life. I am not blind, and I am not lying. Not only have I never come close to dying in any of those quests, the champions themselves are nothing more than a minor nuisance.

One thing I like about them is that they pretty much destroy invisi-zerging, so that's an excellent feature. The only downside to them virtually all getting true seeing is that concealment is one of our legitimate means of defense. Could we get the ubiquitous true seeing champion buff changed to see invisibility?

They do add value, and the "challenge" they add is in a very smart way. Being able to memorize exactly which mobs are where in quests is the dumb design aspect. Champions correct that dumbness.

If they are nothing more than a minor nuisance then how do they add "challenge"?


I personally don't find that they add challenge (including pre "nerf") - more of an annoyance but still, some obviously feel they do. I still say that champions need the bugs fixed first, then need to be adjusted per quest - for example no no wargs in rat maze and less in the arena in Belly - then given tweaks with which buff combinations certain mobs can have - and the damage adjusted up for some buffs and down for others.

Having a few random champions in a quest hitting harder than a raid boss is silly, as is having an area with literally all of the mobs being champions but said champions being weaker than normal mobs... (Yes, I personally have had both of these things happen)

[Keladon]

no. we just realize that a bad dice roll is part of the game. If you die, its not really that big a deal. We've been mindlessly facerolling through content for years at this point. A little bit of actual danger in a quest just isnt a bad thing.


if people decided you were more of an asset in someones backpack rather than taking the 20 seconds to get you close to one of the 2 rez shrines, that seems like a completely different problem to me.

Yes, dying in 1 hit is a little bit of danger.
I was pretty much the one carrying the party.

But constantly assuming things is what some people do best ofcourse.

[nibel]

pics

It is not referent to Monster Champion, but now I understand when some people says DDO have "dated graphics". At least my DDO looks much better than those pics, and it is running at DX9.

[Impaqt]

Yes, dying in 1 hit is a little bit of danger.
I was pretty much the one carrying the party.

But constantly assuming things is what some people do best ofcourse.

Why didnt they raise you then?

[Daitengu]

A raise at level 4? I gues they would need to find a shrine.

[Keladon]

Why didnt they raise you then?

Because they were level 4..

They went to a shrine once everything in the vicinity was dead.

[Sehenry03]

Ok everyone knows I like Champions...but here's a questions for everyone -

How many people in the last week have been TRULY 1 shotted?

I don't mean hit 10 times in a row from 1 volley and killed. I don't mean force missiles that hit 20 times and crit and kill.

How many people have TRULY been at full health and hit ONE time by a mob and killed? What class and armor were you wearing?

I don't mean anything condescending about this question I am really curious as to how often it happens and what classes are hurt the most. I play a Druid and an Arty and a Paladin right now in every level range from 9-28 and none of them have been 1 shotted. Now I have been brought to -400 health after a volley of attacks and I tend to go back through my combat log to see what killed me but even that is rare.

So again...if people will answer...how many have been truly 1 shotted? What class were you playing? What armor/shield if any did you have on? What was it that killed you at what level?