Monster Champion Feedback

[slarden]

Done 4 eTRs since the champion nerf, almost always EE and haven't had one of those uber champs nor have I heard any group members complain about them.

Not saying they don't exist but they seem really rare now, first you need one to spawn, then they need to get into melee range and then they also need to land a crit. It also helps if they have a good crit profile as well as second wind, true seeing and obviously aren't CC'ed the moment they get close.

I've only seen megacrits on level 26+ EEs since the change ,e.g. stormhorns and orchard. I've never seen any significant damage #s in the motu chain for example or other lower level epics. In EH I've never seen anything like this at all.

The devs are collecting data so they can presumably verify it's happening. I check the combat log and divide by ( 1 - my PRR damage reduction percentage) to figure out what the damage is before reduction when I can. Every time it's been melee damage from a crit and my fortification is high so I assume it's been completely bypassed. I've raised people at -500 so I don't think it's just happening to me. Others have also commented on it in this thread and in game. Of course people running EH and lower level EEs won't experience it. I am running almost exclusively higher level EEs and am one-shot about once in 4 quests. It's not like we can't get through the quest, I just think one-shotting is a stupid mechanic.

As far as rarity, people are going to be hit hundreds of times over a play session and with complete fort bypass that is going to mean several crits. What is causing the high damage boost is not known to me, but the combination of the complete fort bypass and damage boosts should be looked at by the devs. And yes having true seeing + megacrits means wizards/sorcs are especially vulnerable since displacement is a significant part of their defense and PRRs tend to be lower.

I've played 2 other MMOs and both have warning circles if an attack is coming that will result in death. I don't think it's an accident that they don't allow you to get one-shot at all in the most difficult content unless there is a warning.

[Ayseifn]

I've only seen megacrits on level 26+ EEs since the change ,e.g. stormhorns and orchard. I've never seen any significant damage #s in the motu chain for example or other lower level epics. In EH I've never seen anything like this at all.

The devs are collecting data so they can presumably verify it's happening. I check the combat log and divide by ( 1 - my PRR damage reduction percentage) to figure out what the damage is before reduction when I can. Every time it's been melee damage from a crit and my fortification is high so I assume it's been completely bypassed. I've raised people at -500 so I don't think it's just happening to me. Others have also commented on it in this thread and in game. Of course people running EH and lower level EEs won't experience it. I am running almost exclusively higher level EEs and am one-shot about once in 4 quests. It's not like we can't get through the quest, I just think one-shotting is a stupid mechanic.

As far as rarity, people are going to be hit hundreds of times over a play session and with complete fort bypass that is going to mean several crits. What is causing the high damage boost is not known to me, but the combination of the complete fort bypass and damage boosts should be looked at by the devs. And yes having true seeing + megacrits means wizards/sorcs are especially vulnerable since displacement is a significant part of their defense and PRRs tend to be lower.

I've played 2 other MMOs and both have warning circles if an attack is coming that will result in death. I don't think it's an accident that they don't allow you to get one-shot at all in the most difficult content unless there is a warning.

Fair enough, the other thing with rarity which I think I brought up earlier in this thread or one of the many other threads on this topic is that with enough players playing at the same time someone will be facing that rare, crazy champ right now. So yeah if it's a problem it should be fixed even if it only affects one in one thousand.

I honestly haven't been doing too many level 26+ EE's so that's probably why I don't really see them ever, I do do Stormhorns almost every life and last life I did some of it with only 3 people while I was only level 22. I didn't die in WGU as a level 22 and neither did anyone else, no mega melee crits at all just really rough spell damage because my saves sucked.

Edit: Oh and there is a warning for the really nasty stuff, if you've ever seen a mob with second wind you'll know what I'm talking about. Would really like a different coloured crown for fort bypass though, that's another really scary one.

[Rys]

I am just gonna leave this here. It wasn't even crit and it was solo so no dungeon scaling.

I am not calling for nerf, just wanted to express my disappointment over how the introduction of PRR and MRR was handled. I didn't like it from day one because it made the game even greater joke than it was before. And instead of revisiting these changes, you have decided to introduce champions who pretty much screw over all robe wearers (not even talking about full fortification bypass).

EDIT: EE TOR; Champion: On-hit Fire + Champion: Damage Boost

[Qhualor]

I am just gonna leave this here. It wasn't even crit and it was solo so no dungeon scaling.

I am not calling for nerf, just wanted to express my disappointment over how the introduction of PRR and MRR was handled. I didn't like it from day one because it made the game even greater joke than it was before. And instead of revisiting these changes, you have decided to introduce champions who pretty much screw over all robe wearers (not even talking about full fortification bypass).

Do you have more details that would be helpful besides showing a giant savage hitting you for 800? What quest, /loc, was it a Champion, what level, what difficulty, etc. The devs can't do anything with that little info.

[Rys]

Do you have more details that would be helpful besides showing a giant savage hitting you for 800? What quest, /loc, was it a Champion, what level, what difficulty, etc. The devs can't do anything with that little info.

Added to my original post. Not really sure how the /loc would help in this case.

[Qhualor]

Added to my original post. Not really sure how the /loc would help in this case.

That's one of the things they ask for. I think its so they can go back and try to duplicate the problem.

[Rys]

That's one of the things they ask for. I think its so they can go back and try to duplicate the problem.

Then all I can say on this is that I was too busy running away and healing myself. And if it is the info they ask for, why it is not in the OP?

[Emerld]

Dear Devs,
Why do we need champions at all? With the ever increasing lag, the normal mobs kill us. It is becoming so frustrating to play, that I wonder if it is worth it anymore. I know I am not the only person to bring up this issue. But no one has approached the champions from this point of view that I know. In your world, there is no lag. well, in my world, after I died I immediately did a speed test, just to see if it was from my end: ping 16ms - download speed 4.83mbps - upload speed 0.93mbps. As far as I know, this should give me more than ample speed to play this game, does it not? Am I wrong? If I am wrong, please let me know, so I quit getting so frustrated with the game. I just went through 3 minutes of pure lag where all I could do was just barely studder step, while trash mob (a dog/ orc melee/ caster) not even a champion, decided THEY had no lag and proceeded to wipe me out. Not only did they kill me, the cleric I had, who I was frantically trying to use and cast "heal" on me, just stood there. Did the mob attack the cleric? Not yet. After I was killed, THEN the mob decided to take out the cleric. Even the cleric was lagged and could not do anything while the mob just stood there and beat on him until he died.
What is the purpose of the champion? To stand back and laugh that now we cannot even take on trash mobs? This is becoming so ridiculous that I am seriously considering another game. I've stayed true the game and it is the only game I play, online or otherwise. But if this was supposed to be my relaxation and fun has become irritating and completely aggravating, then you bring in champions. What are we supposed to do?

[Systern]

Varg, I know you've said that there may need to be some exceptions to where champions can appear, and I've found another.


First off, let me say that I'm probably making a mistake because I'm frustrated and posting this while frustrated. Please forgive if this is not as polite as it should be. Secondly, please realize that it's this game mechanic that Turbine chose to put in that's frustrating me so much.


Overgrowth's wood woad optionals were never "Good" to begin with. The optionals design mandates that you have a bursty character to clear the rooms before the wood woads leave, and not everyone plays, has, or wants a fricken level 28 Sorc in draconic or Monk with EiN primed to farm a piece of HEROIC gear. A piece of gear (Wall of Wood) that non-bursty classes (Druids) want! Design goal diametrically opposed to the reward.

This annoying optional just got freaking frustrating when not only you ask that we kill monster types that we typically don't gear for (who the hell carries plant/natural bane?) in an arbitrarily short amount of time, but you throw in triple HP meat sacks with death ward to negate our burst.

The optional's design was junk to begin with. Champions make it worse. Can you please please please please please fix it?


(EDIT: Yea, a level 26 completionist swashbuckler using masters blitz can't do the heroic elite optional.... Broken quest.)

[Impaqt]

Dear Devs,
Why do we need champions at all? With the ever increasing lag, the normal mobs kill us. It is becoming so frustrating to play, that I wonder if it is worth it anymore. I know I am not the only person to bring up this issue. But no one has approached the champions from this point of view that I know. In your world, there is no lag. well, in my world, after I died I immediately did a speed test, just to see if it was from my end: ping 16ms - download speed 4.83mbps - upload speed 0.93mbps. As far as I know, this should give me more than ample speed to play this game, does it not? Am I wrong? If I am wrong, please let me know, so I quit getting so frustrated with the game. I just went through 3 minutes of pure lag where all I could do was just barely studder step, while trash mob (a dog/ orc melee/ caster) not even a champion, decided THEY had no lag and proceeded to wipe me out. Not only did they kill me, the cleric I had, who I was frantically trying to use and cast "heal" on me, just stood there. Did the mob attack the cleric? Not yet. After I was killed, THEN the mob decided to take out the cleric. Even the cleric was lagged and could not do anything while the mob just stood there and beat on him until he died.
What is the purpose of the champion? To stand back and laugh that now we cannot even take on trash mobs? This is becoming so ridiculous that I am seriously considering another game. I've stayed true the game and it is the only game I play, online or otherwise. But if this was supposed to be my relaxation and fun has become irritating and completely aggravating, then you bring in champions. What are we supposed to do?

The devs are well aware that lag exists.

that being said, our internet speeds have very little to do with lag. You need to look at things like CPU, Memory, Video Card, ad the overall health of your operating system(Virus, Malware, etc).

[Emerld]

The devs are well aware that lag exists.

that being said, our internet speeds have very little to do with lag. You need to look at things like CPU, Memory, Video Card, ad the overall health of your operating system(Virus, Malware, etc).

the computer is in fine working order and was designed for gaming. I know that they are aware of the lag issue. Yet it is getting worse as the time goes by. I repeated the same quest about 30 minutes later. I ran into the lag at the same position. Being ready for it, I disconnected before there was a fight. I reconnected (completely shut down then rejoined the quest in the same place). The lag still continued. The only difference this time than before, was that I was able to catch the ladder and studder my way up it and out of view of the mob. Once that was done, I slowly inched over to the edge and then emptied my mana casting aoe spells in the area that finally killed the trash mob. Empty mana meaning it took 500-600 mana to kill the same dog/ orc melee/ orc caster. Once they were dead, the area "cleared up" of lag for a time, before it started again. (Keep in mind, I am 1 level higher than the quest). Whether it be the zone - the quest - the server that the quest is on; the issue of lag is becoming worse than it was a year ago and a year ago from then. Yes, we may have times where we do not see lag, but it is becoming so much more frequent, I do not see why time is being spent on adding champions. You want a challenge? Let lag get ahold of you for a few minutes during a battle. Wait for it to start up, then attack a mob and see what happens. With the introduction of the champions, which are still far superior than your "normal" player, we dont have a chance.

edite: lag is so bad in gianthold now that I cannot even get to the quest. i had to log out and pray that I do not die to the mob. then again, i wonder, why bother?

[BDog77]

You want a challenge? Let lag get ahold of you for a few minutes during a battle. Wait for it to start up, then attack a mob and see what happens.

While at first blush, this is kinda funny, it's actually pretty spot on. Lag does provide the same sort of "random challenge" as the Champions do. It is random, can wipe parties, doesn't matter what your build is, or what your gear is, or what your "player skill" is.

Nice point.

[illuminar]

I would like to see the champ numbers scale with group size, but also provide an xp bonus. 1 champ = +1% xp or something similar.

[punisher032]

I would like to see the champ numbers scale with group size, but also provide an xp bonus. 1 champ = +1% xp or something similar.

The scaling champs with groups size makes since to me. I know some people don't like scaling to begin with, but DDO has a wide variety of players. I for one have to solo quite often since I have to afk quickly or the weird hours I play. Sometimes I play for only 30 minutes. I can get a few quest in during that time. I don't like waiting on groups to fill as it cuts in to my playing time. Before you blah blah blah about playing normal, I will not run it due to lost of xp, bravery bonus, being way to easy and more of a grind. I don't care about Turbine points as I will just buy them, but the favor for extra bank spaces and inventory would really suck losing. I have been playing for 4+ years and have tons of gear, also learned to play Heroic elite solo in most dungeons.

The champs are doable running solo, but it really depends on luck of the random buffs they get and what build I am running if one wipes the floor with me. Some builds work much better then others. I run with a static group and we just roll over the champs since we all are veteran players. Not much of a challenge for us. Few deaths here and there but no party wipes not even close. They do hit much harder but haven't seen any player get a one shot kill yet. I did see them one hit Paetus in Ritual Sacrifice, which sucked.

Either way I am going to keep playing just not as much when I have limit time to play. Only when I know I have time to group up, even then I am not going to wait a long time for LFM to fill. I will just have to find something else to do when I have 30 minutes or so to play.

[Impaqt]

the computer is in fine working order and was designed for gaming. I know that they are aware of the lag issue. Yet it is getting worse as the time goes by. I repeated the same quest about 30 minutes later. I ran into the lag at the same position. Being ready for it, I disconnected before there was a fight. I reconnected (completely shut down then rejoined the quest in the same place). The lag still continued. The only difference this time than before, was that I was able to catch the ladder and studder my way up it and out of view of the mob. Once that was done, I slowly inched over to the edge and then emptied my mana casting aoe spells in the area that finally killed the trash mob. Empty mana meaning it took 500-600 mana to kill the same dog/ orc melee/ orc caster. Once they were dead, the area "cleared up" of lag for a time, before it started again. (Keep in mind, I am 1 level higher than the quest). Whether it be the zone - the quest - the server that the quest is on; the issue of lag is becoming worse than it was a year ago and a year ago from then. Yes, we may have times where we do not see lag, but it is becoming so much more frequent, I do not see why time is being spent on adding champions. You want a challenge? Let lag get ahold of you for a few minutes during a battle. Wait for it to start up, then attack a mob and see what happens. With the introduction of the champions, which are still far superior than your "normal" player, we dont have a chance.

edite: lag is so bad in gianthold now that I cannot even get to the quest. i had to log out and pray that I do not die to the mob. then again, i wonder, why bother?

Why would "Turbine" lag effect you but not me?

I'm certainly not a lag denier. But seriously, the lag you describe is NOT common or normal. there is something wrong. But if you just want to blame it on turbine instead of investigating solutions, have at it.

[EllisDee37]

I honestly don't know if the people who think champions are "fine" are just blind or are lieing when they say they did the content and saw no issues, or through some miracle managed to get very lucky and never encounter a single "party killing" champion that is just doing something ridiculous.

I'm around 100 quests into my current heroic life. I am not blind, and I am not lying. Not only have I never come close to dying in any of those quests, the champions themselves are nothing more than a minor nuisance.

One thing I like about them is that they pretty much destroy invisi-zerging, so that's an excellent feature. The only downside to them virtually all getting true seeing is that concealment is one of our legitimate means of defense. Could we get the ubiquitous true seeing champion buff changed to see invisibility?

Since they add no value either way the system should be scrapped. This is adding "challenge" in the dumbest manner possible.

If the game is too easy, and let's all be honest here it IS too easy, random junk that makes no sense is not the way to address it.

They do add value, and the "challenge" they add is in a very smart way. Being able to memorize exactly which mobs are where in quests is the dumb design aspect. Champions correct that dumbness.

[MonadRebelion]

I honestly don't know if the people who think champions are "fine" are just blind or are lieing when they say they did the content and saw no issues, or through some miracle managed to get very lucky and never encounter a single "party killing" champion that is just doing something ridiculous.

I really sympathize with you here, but from the other side as it were. I think champions are fine. I can understand the nerf to champions as it applied to hard difficulty settings, but I don't see why there should have been any nerf to elite settings. I am pretty baffled by reports I see on the forums of people who say champions have made elite quests way to difficult. People talk about getting one shot killed as if it was happening constantly, or they suggest the damage output is so high they might as well be one shot killing. I have been running a lot of heroic quests with basically brand new players the last few weeks, and we run quests with almost as much difficulty as I would have expected prior to the existence of champions. There is a noticeable increase in difficulty, but I haven't seen anything like what so many people seem to describe. Yesterday my noobie friends and I completed an elite Caverns of Korromar on 6th level characters in a 3 man party. The only time anyone got instakilled was by the non-champion beholder at the end. Some of the other named monsters were champions, but we were able to handle them okay. I don't suspect people posting about their frustrations with champions are lying about what they are going through. However, their experience of the game is so different from mine I really wish I could see video footage of their game play so I could see what is going on. From what they describe, it seems like champions make it impossible for people to run over-level quests on elite. Yet, per impossibile, I have been doing this for the past two weeks with people who know very little about the game. I really have no idea what to make of the reports about how champions being ridiculously overpowered.

Also, I've been seeing a lot of people saying the randomness of champions is a bad thing. I love the randomness. In my view, randomness that matters, that makes an important difference, is essential to the spirit of dnd. We are supposed to by terrified of rolling a 1. We are supposed to be afraid because we know that 1 is an automatic failure which we can do nothing about, and because we know that if we play long enough a 1 is going to fall on us eventually. Bad luck is supposed to cost us in dnd. Monster champions do something to put luck into the game. Putting monster champions in the game is the only thing that has been done in the game to make it feel like dnd for a long time. Monster champions have done more to make this game feel like dnd than the Haunted Halls did.

[Wizza]

One thing I like about them is that they pretty much destroy invisi-zerging, so that's an excellent feature. The only downside to them virtually all getting true seeing is that concealment is one of our legitimate means of defense. Could we get the ubiquitous true seeing champion buff changed to see invisibility?

They do add value, and the "challenge" they add is in a very smart way. Being able to memorize exactly which mobs are where in quests is the dumb design aspect. Champions correct that dumbness.

They don't destroy invis-zergig and they don't add any challenge. I still zerg everything and I still destroy them, so does my friend who is currently playing with me.

They would add some "challenge" and actually some fun if their buffs were not limited to 3: more damage, Absorb Element/type of dmg and True Seeing. So much fun, yay. As you said, they are a nuisance. Nuisances are not fun to me.

[Keladon]

They don't destroy invis-zergig and they don't add any challenge. I still zerg everything and I still destroy them, so does my friend who is currently playing with me.

They would add some "challenge" and actually some fun if their buffs were not limited to 3: more damage, Absorb Element/type of dmg and True Seeing. So much fun, yay. As you said, they are a nuisance. Nuisances are not fun to me.

This. I even started invisi-zerging with the introduction of champions.

And a champion just killed me in 1 hit in Irestone Inlet..
Lvl 5, 16 starting con (23 total), in pyjama's (dex build). Enough AC (+ blurry) to dodge most of the hits but 1 got through.. It wasn't even a critical hit either

But at least I could spend the rest of the quest in someone's backpack, so much fun!
Ofcourse things like this never happen for "pro champion" players, I'm just the unluckiest player in all of DDO.

Nuisance or frustrating.

[Rys]

This. I even started invisi-zerging with the introduction of champions.

And a champion just killed me in 1 hit in Irestone Inlet..
Lvl 5, 16 starting con (23 total), in pyjama's (dex build). Enough AC (+ blurry) to dodge most of the hits but 1 got through.. It wasn't even a critical hit either

But at least I could spend the rest of the quest in someone's backpack, so much fun!
Ofcourse things like this never happen for "pro champion" players, I'm just the unluckiest player in all of DDO.

Nuisance or frustrating.

You should probably just reroll to paladin /sarcasm off