Monster Champion Feedback

[slarden]

Fortification Bypass let's monsters ignore player's fortification and Improved Fortification feat description says:

Does this feat help player to protect themselves from mob champions who has Fortification Bypass buff ?

Negative

Immunity to critical hits effectively means 100% fortification. I have 260% fortification and am still taking critical hits over 1000 before damage reduction. The feat doesn't make you immune.

[slarden]

The difference is...what the dev's have done in game and posted on the forums leans more to what I am saying then anyone expecting a check box or for champs to go away.

I don't have a strong opinion on champions one way or the other - except I think they are stupid in Korthos and the Harbor and I think the combination of complete fortification bypass + damage boosts should be looked at more closely.

I wouldn't assume the checkbox is out of the question - it may end up being their easiest way out because they will likely lose players over this (mostly solo I assume since they have little to no impact on groups of 6 in my experience).

What they've said is they want more time to gather data and adjust. Beyond that it's just speculation. Just browse through the old official topic - guild decay thread if you want to see how many people said Turbine would never get rid of decay. They were all proven wrong. It was alot of the same people that were equally insulting then as they are now (not directed at you - just my observation as I see alot of the same people hurling the same type of insults at mostly the same group - solo casual players).

DDO is serving a few different target markets and the only group heavily impacted by this is the solo casual players. I don't think champions will convince these folks to group with others.

I don't care what they do, but I am glad I am not in their shoes because this is a very divisive can of worms they opened.

[Gljosh]

How about Champions are removed from Snowy Side Korthos? That way newbie players, whom happen to be VIP won't get one shotted while trying to learn the game. Introduce them in the Harbor and Marketplace. The guard the box quest, which is full of hints, would be a great place to introduce them, "Oh lookout! A crown means that creature is a champion and thus stronger than other creatures!"

Now I played both pre and post champion reverse augmentation, pre reverse augmentation we ran EE Servants, the quest was REALLY tough normally 2~3 champs per mob burst, the EXTREME Optional was really sick, but the boss fight was a cake walk. That seemed really out of sync, the boss should be stronger than the minions. Post reverse augmentation, we ran EE Servants (other PUG), roughly 1 champ per mob burst and 1 boss had a crown, the Hezrou I think. In EE ALL bosses should have champion buffs (offensive AND defensive). in HE 50% of bosses should have champion buffs.

I like the idea of champions, but would love to see two fixes.

1) no champion inanimate objects/npc (no life bar no crown)
2) increased chances for chests (actual pretty nice with the cookies coins being available)

[phillymiket]

How about Champions are removed from Snowy Side Korthos? )

^^^^ maybe this ^^^^

Maybe Snowy Side code can be separated away from the other Hard and Elite difficulties?

If so, like you said, there could be some NCP explanation for Champions with some back story so it makes sense. Then players could feel the 'step up' in difficulty.

Brilliant avenue to explore, by my reckoning.

[Vulkoorex]

^^^^ maybe this ^^^^

Maybe Snowy Side code can be separated away from the other Hard and Elite difficulties?

If so, like you said, there could be some NCP explanation for Champions with some back story so it makes sense. Then players could feel the 'step up' in difficulty.

Brilliant avenue to explore, by my reckoning.

I started last year as a F2P to see how I would enjoy DDO before spending any money. My friends and I started on Snowy Korthos with fresh no gear toons. We played as a group of 4 and also played solo too. I did quest on normal, then hard, then elite before leaving Korthos to go to Stormreach. Basically following the storyline.

I'm not sure if I would have stayed if the Monster Champions were implemented back then. As I don't have much time to play and dieing all the time would be such a waste of my time that I would have found some other hobby.

I have since gone premium and got all packs but see no reason to go VIP. I solo and play in groups. Opening elite (as I like elite one and done) on my first life toons was a consideration to go VIP but not anymore.

[SiliconScout]

I started last year as a F2P to see how I would enjoy DDO before spending any money. My friends and I started on Snowy Korthos with fresh no gear toons. We played as a group of 4 and also played solo too. I did quest on normal, then hard, then elite before leaving Korthos to go to Stormreach. Basically following the storyline.

I'm not sure if I would have stayed if the Monster Champions were implemented back then. As I don't have much time to play and dieing all the time would be such a waste of my time that I would have found some other hobby.

I have since gone premium and got all packs but see no reason to go VIP. I solo and play in groups. Opening elite (as I like elite one and done) on my first life toons was a consideration to go VIP but not anymore.

I don't see how that makes much sense personally. I mean if you are currently playing and can play elite (for the one and done) and elite opening was a carrot to head for VIP then I don't see why it's still not because of Champions. I mean if they haven't stopped you from playing Elite as of now, why would they stop you from running elite as a VIP?

I can see the complaint that not being able to complete Elite when you used to be able to but from what I see generally in game and here the chances are most players who find Champions the difference between auto complete and often / always fail simply need to improve their game skills / tactics, perhaps gear.

Anyway ... like I said if they haven't stopped you from playing Elite as of yet (and it doesn't sound like it has) I don't see why it would prevent you from going VIP .. just seems strange to me.

[Qhualor]

I started last year as a F2P to see how I would enjoy DDO before spending any money. My friends and I started on Snowy Korthos with fresh no gear toons. We played as a group of 4 and also played solo too. I did quest on normal, then hard, then elite before leaving Korthos to go to Stormreach. Basically following the storyline.

I'm not sure if I would have stayed if the Monster Champions were implemented back then. As I don't have much time to play and dieing all the time would be such a waste of my time that I would have found some other hobby.

I have since gone premium and got all packs but see no reason to go VIP. I solo and play in groups. Opening elite (as I like elite one and done) on my first life toons was a consideration to go VIP but not anymore.

I remember back about 4 years ago people complained it was a waste of their time failing quests, not getting all the loot they wanted from raids by their 20th completion, the amount of time it took to cap a character, the incentives weren't worth running higher than normal.

Dev response was to casualize the game to the point of elite being standard, decreasing xp required to level on TRs to the point that you can one and done and still skip a lot of content, loot rewards drop on normal sane as elite, failing a quest is almost unheard of barring lag.

Throw a little challenge at players and we are right back to 4 years ago again. /sigh

[count_spicoli]

the champions have actually brought back good players in our guild who left because them game was too easy. Most find these nerfed champions still too easy but hopefully the devs will ramp them back up.

[Vulkoorex]

I don't see how that makes much sense personally. I mean if you are currently playing and can play elite (for the one and done) and elite opening was a carrot to head for VIP then I don't see why it's still not because of Champions. I mean if they haven't stopped you from playing Elite as of now, why would they stop you from running elite as a VIP?

I can see the complaint that not being able to complete Elite when you used to be able to but from what I see generally in game and here the chances are most players who find Champions the difference between auto complete and often / always fail simply need to improve their game skills / tactics, perhaps gear.

Anyway ... like I said if they haven't stopped you from playing Elite as of yet (and it doesn't sound like it has) I don't see why it would prevent you from going VIP .. just seems strange to me.

Probably because my toon I am currently playing with is a 36 point build with a few past lives. Playing with that toon solo elite at level is just enough to get by the Monster Champions. I don't see a 32 point build with no past lives faring better unless over level by 2 or more. And I don't have stellar gear to share with my newer toons. Also I don't min/max my toons. I build them as pure to see how the class/race feels and to make it my own.

And like so many people have pointed out...if I can't handle elite, there is always normal. so there you go...no reason to go VIP.

[Vulkoorex]

I remember back about 4 years ago people complained it was a waste of their time failing quests, not getting all the loot they wanted from raids by their 20th completion, the amount of time it took to cap a character, the incentives weren't worth running higher than normal.

Dev response was to casualize the game to the point of elite being standard, decreasing xp required to level on TRs to the point that you can one and done and still skip a lot of content, loot rewards drop on normal sane as elite, failing a quest is almost unheard of barring lag.

Throw a little challenge at players and we are right back to 4 years ago again. /sigh

Congratulations?

I am merely stating my opinion on how things are for me. I will still play since I have invested $$$ already and have pointed out that I will not be going VIP.

Is that alright with you?

[Qhualor]

Congratulations?

I am merely stating my opinion on how things are for me. I will still play since I have invested $$$ already and have pointed out that I will not be going VIP.

Is that alright with you?

Its your money, do what you want with it. Just stating a coincidence to past discussions. History does repeat itself sometimes I guess.

[Sehenry03]

Probably because my toon I am currently playing with is a 36 point build with a few past lives. Playing with that toon solo elite at level is just enough to get by the Monster Champions. I don't see a 32 point build with no past lives faring better unless over level by 2 or more. And I don't have stellar gear to share with my newer toons. Also I don't min/max my toons. I build them as pure to see how the class/race feels and to make it my own.

And like so many people have pointed out...if I can't handle elite, there is always normal. so there you go...no reason to go VIP.

I love the TR argument. Just because I have 10 past lives does NOT mean I am gonna be unkillable. Most of the low end stuff I use til lvl 9 are easily crafted or purchased. Most builds I do can easily be done with 32 pts. I can have 3 PL of Fighter/Sorc/Wiz/Cler/FvS/Bard and if I want to make a new monk with him how does the past lives help much other then the 36 pt build? The fighter PL's will give me +3 to hit...yay!!! The rest will be pointless.

If you can't handle Champions with a 32 pt build and you know how to play the game...try another class.

[Vulkoorex]

I love the TR argument. Just because I have 10 past lives does NOT mean I am gonna be unkillable. Most of the low end stuff I use til lvl 9 are easily crafted or purchased. Most builds I do can easily be done with 32 pts. I can have 3 PL of Fighter/Sorc/Wiz/Cler/FvS/Bard and if I want to make a new monk with him how does the past lives help much other then the 36 pt build? The fighter PL's will give me +3 to hit...yay!!! The rest will be pointless.

If you can't handle Champions with a 32 pt build and you know how to play the game...try another class.

Good for you. Clearly you can play DDO better than I can. so clearly I still need to play normal or hard. Thus again...no reason for me to go VIP.

[Braegan]

Good for you. Clearly you can play DDO better than I can. so clearly I still need to play normal or hard. Thus again...no reason for me to go VIP.

So having...

10% stacking perma xp
500 tp a month
Classes/Races/Content unlocked
More Char slots
etc

aren't enough?

Do what you want but being able to unlock elite is one of a few good benefits of being vip.

[Vulkoorex]

So having...

10% stacking perma xp
500 tp a month
Classes/Races/Content unlocked
More Char slots
etc

aren't enough?

Do what you want but being able to unlock elite is one of a few good benefits of being vip.

I already bought all of the quest packs. And have 8 characters slots of which 5 of them are not used. I have purchased a lot of Turbine points already with the double bonus points. I have all races.

So the only benefits (I think) I am missing is the +10% xp, and a weekly gold roll and opening elite, Artificers class (close to unlocking) and the Harper Enhancement (which I will probably buy).

Opening elite was the main draw for me with 5 unused characters slot. But no point if I can't solo elite at least part of the time.

[Braegan]

I already bought all of the quest packs. And have 8 characters slots of which 5 of them are not used. I have purchased a lot of Turbine points already with the double bonus points. I have all races.

So the only benefits (I think) I am missing is the +10% xp, and a weekly gold roll and opening elite, Artificers class (close to unlocking) and the Harper Enhancement (which I will probably buy).

Opening elite was the main draw for me with 5 unused characters slot. But no point if I can't solo elite at least part of the time.

Ultimately that is up to you.

I stand by the reasoning that Elite at level is not and should not be balanced for solo play. Otherwise what would a group of players at level find enjoyable? Even still, soloing elite at level is still very doable for a large portion of the game. Maybe not at the beginning, but perhaps now you have an in game goal to set for yourself and have fun with?

[lyrecono]

just throwing my 2 cents:
Soloing elite Heroics,
for me, on my main, i still zerg through, killing most, often ignoring champions, killing stuff around them if needed for an optional
killing trash champions was a waste of resources, the orange and red named at least gave exp and usually have less hp.
the trash loot isn't worth it, assuming a chest spawns and you could reach it, already having 28 plat capped toons make champions useless

when in a party, i'm forced to kill them, 80% of the newbies can't handle them and cost me 10% exp EVERYTIME.
there seems no way to filter these newbies out with the lfm these days, if you put in text like: TR-Zerg, veterans only
They always apply because there are no normal or hard lfm's up in heroics
After trying to deal with a first life (fighter 4, wiz3, cleric3, no fort item) lv 10 toon with 120 hp that is played like a frontline melee in elite content without making myself sound like a elitist prick i'm actually getting fed up with these champions.
It's creating a greater divide between newbies and tr-vets.
It's really hard to get 3 more people in the party on heroics, if i need to get really picky, i end up soloing what is supposed to be an mmo

Please turbine, put in a check box for the champions or a checkbox to filter out first lifers, selecting how many past lives tr's need to have before being allowed into apply to my group, also, please start with the server merges, heroic content is a barren wasteland compared to a year ago.
In the past i had to shortman Elite von 5&6 with 8 to 9 people but tempest spine usually filled really fast due to all the f2p players, the last 2 lives i had to solo tempest spine all the way to the endboss before 2!!! people joined


As a response to people pointing at the DDo oracle data, please take that with a 5 pound grain of salt, between the double log in bug, contant dc-ing the last couple of updates, multiple mule accounts and memory leak from tooning over the amount of log ins doesn't accurately represents the number of players.


Edit:
Also do something about the squishyness of your npc's,
I see boudry's box 2 shotted,
canith crystals 1 shotted,
Elder drow 1 shotted (last standred fens)
the 2 brothers 2 shotted (stand your ground, The Sharn Syndicate, marketplace)
Etc,
If you keep chasing your customers away turbine at least do something about these, i can solo elite, can't be at 2 places at the time

[kilagan800]

Get rid of them. I'm tired of playing in full and partial groups that wipe. Also, it makes it hard to play with friends who want to run only elite quests but wipe in the first room, then they leave because they won't play on hard or normal. So then I end up soloing normal.

[Keladon]

Ultimately that is up to you.

I stand by the reasoning that Elite at level is not and should not be balanced for solo play. Otherwise what would a group of players at level find enjoyable? Even still, soloing elite at level is still very doable for a large portion of the game. Maybe not at the beginning, but perhaps now you have an in game goal to set for yourself and have fun with?

Did they remove scaling from the game?

[phillymiket]

Did they remove scaling from the game?

Yeah, sure removing scaling would have effectively bumped up the difficulty of Hard and Elite in a balanced way while preserving the intent of the original designers of these quests without sending the mixed messages of "we want you to solo Hard and Elite but we also don't want you to".

- but saying "Let's add Champions!" sounds so much more proactive in a meeting.

Or to say it in meme form...



Undoing something doesn't get you any wow! points even if it better fixes the problem at hand, me thinks.