Monster Champion Feedback

[Braegan]

Yar. Me 2. I saw Elite in DDO before I ever saw the Harbor.

I just don't buy these completionist vets coming here saying they stuck to Normal exclusively for months and months when they were new.

Hijinks, i say.

For me and all the people I learned the game with, Normal, Hard and Elite were all run often.

Normal run with repetition at level, which then was actually at level meaning run a level 4 quest at level 4 and we always come back one level later for the Hard and Elite run.

Seeing as people now run Elite two levels over for the easiest BB completion, we were running Elite a level earlier than people run it now.

People need to stop all this play acting about how it was when they started.

You wanna say we should change the game to make Hard and Elite more prohibitive for new people, fine. We can debate that.

But don't tell me we aren't changing the game to be more prohibitive then when we all started because we clearly are.

Well, weather you buy it or not it is true. In my case I absolutely stuck to normal for a long time. I capped (level 10 at the time) on normal with many quests I didn't run yet. I did run normal because I was learning the game and the game was much more difficult back then (2006).

Since the games launch a truckload of buffs, changes, gear options have made the game much easier and new player friendly. This one addition of adding champs into heroics doesn't come close to canceling out the absurd levels of power characters have now versus what they had back then. So no, I don't feel this is excluding new players as much as folks would like to think it is. New players are still in a much better off position than the old timers were.

Since the old timer completionist vets first leveled up things that were added/changed to make the game easier:

- Ship Buffs (Elemental Resists are huge in lowbie land)
- Much better equipment
- A twice over revamped enhancement system (The first one had a cap of FOUR total enhancements you could have).
- Content tweaked to make things easier.
- Revamped XP
- BB
- Favor Reward system
- Dungeon Scaling
- Hirelings
- A Wealth of information via here and the wiki
- DDO Store and all that brings to the table
- Much more I am forgetting right now

Things added to the game to make a challenge:

- Champions on Hard and Elite.

Yeah, I don't feel bad. Game is still much easier now.

[phillymiket]

Well, weather you buy it or not it is true. In my case I absolutely stuck to normal for a long time. I capped (level 10 at the time) on normal with many quests I didn't run yet. I did run normal because I was learning the game and the game was much more difficult back then (2006).

Since the games launch a truckload of buffs, changes, gear options have made the game much easier and new player friendly. This one addition of adding champs into heroics doesn't come close to canceling out the absurd levels of power characters have now versus what they had back then. So no, I don't feel this is excluding new players as much as folks would like to think it is. New players are still in a much better off position than the old timers were.

Since the old timer completionist vets first leveled up things that were added/changed to make the game easier:

- Ship Buffs (Elemental Resists are huge in lowbie land)
- Much better equipment
- A twice over revamped enhancement system (The first one had a cap of FOUR total enhancements you could have).
- Content tweaked to make things easier.
- Revamped XP
- BB
- Favor Reward system
- Dungeon Scaling
- Hirelings
- A Wealth of information via here and the wiki
- DDO Store and all that brings to the table
- Much more I am forgetting right now

Things added to the game to make a challenge:

- Champions on Hard and Elite.

Yeah, I don't feel bad. Game is still much easier now.

Ok, fair enough. I'll make an adjustment to my statement -

I totally buy that you, Braegan, and all the other founders in 2006 did play on normal when the game was much much harder at the very launch.

I was talking about f2p and on, your experiences in 2006 were totally different. From 2006-2008 the game really was a beast even at the start. I'll give you that for sure.

Listing the existence of Hirelings and the Favor System as a "new" advantage for people shows just how out of touch your experiences learning this game are from 99.99%+ of DDO players.

Most all those things you listed don't effect a new person except dungeon scaling and caster SLA's (which you didn't mention but are a big help)

New people don't have ship buffs, Starter gear has not significantly changed (yes I know it has since 2006 i mean since f2p), Favor is not a factor, new people can't be assumed to have wiki meta knowledge, The Store is not a factor until someone commits to the game, the good enhancements don't unlock yet (except the SLAs. which are really super good)

Thats all stuff that makes it easier for me and you but, again, don't apply to a new person very much.

...and in any case I didn't say anything about easier or harder.

I said Champions make the game "more prohibitive". i.e less free, less friendly and a less open and welcoming world for new people.

So tell me more how the favor reward system out-weighs the fact that all LFMS posted are for a setting they are not intended to play.

The game is much easier for experienced players, due to the things you listed and others, and a bit easier for new people (particularly casters)...

But it's also now a much more prohibitive game to start with the addition of Champions in the starter areas.

Should this be our new ad copy?

"Start DDO today! - There will be zero groups posted for you to join!, We don't "envision" you doing anything but repeat the same boring Normal setting over and over by yourself!"

Yea! Sounds like fun. Sign me up.

[Scrabbler]

Does this feat help player to protect themselves from mob champions who has Fortification Bypass buff ?

No, the player has immunity but the monster ignores that immunity (just like regular Rogue monsters do too)

[Kanuk]

I have not played a lot in heroic recently, so i speak mostly for epics. I like the new champion system, i like it a lot! You could actually increase the amount of champion closer to what it was at the beginning and i would also like that! Problem is i don't love champions...because of one buff, "i hit hard" (triple damage).

Mask of deception, EH, on my main with 79 MRR. Sorcerers cast dragon breath for 310 to 340 damage, but champion cast it for 950 to 1050. You can open a door with mobs already on offense on the other side and get hit by dragon breath before having the time to do anything. Even if i try, i probably only have 1 chance out of 4 of guessing correct absorption to activate if i prepare. Same goes for some melee champions who hit for 600 to 900 dmg, get 2 "i hit hard" champions in same group and you could be in trouble.

The other buff I could see causing issues is true seeing. Some mobs in game can already cast trues seeing, but they need to cast it! The possibility of champions having it active to start pretty much negate all use of the invisibility spell. This is less of an issue to me as i rarely do invis runs, but it's still a serious game changer for some people.

Overall, I like the champion aspect as it keeps us on our toe each fight since we need to focus on those with crowns. But the randomness of it all can get frustrating real fast sometimes.

[Seikojin]

New players to the game, trying to protect a crystal and an old man, may decide quickly to uninstall the game when champions cause them to fail their quests. Remove champions from Korthos Island. This should have been a self-evident game decision at the beginning, assuming DDO wishes to attract new players and retain them through the first few levels.

When learning the game do you play on Hard or elite?

[Seikojin]

I loved champions when they first came out. I'm really disappointed they got nerfed.

Would love to see a check box added at the difficulty screen to turn champs on and off. +20% xp when checked. That way people that are actually looking for a challenge can have them turned on and get a reward for it and the rest of the people can keep complaining that elite is too easy. Everyone wins.

It would be nice, however I think something like that can bring in more bugs than we would want to see. As players even.

I like the pre nerf spawn for elite. I don't mind hard not having as many champs. Makes sense even.

I spent the last week running heroic elites and champs are pretty much a joke and free trash loot.

For a reward system:
1. Have each champ drop a single astral shard. Or have a chance to.
2. Orange nameds should have some additional items in their chests. Mainly non-named items that are special. Tomes, store items, etc. Obviously level/difficulty based, like all other chests.
3. It would be a great chance to include a way to build stockpiles of rare ingredients/components. Like generic epic scroll fragments. Do the same for shards and seals. This way people can slowly build up their items. I am thinking 1000 fragments to 1 generic. Maybe 20 generics to 1 actual. I say a flat conversion ebcause making something like the hellstroke greataxe components be 20, but the sword of shadows be 200, would be like a confirmed slap to the face to players. LOL The fragments can use the barter box system like seeds and valor comms do.

[Zeleron]

Ok, fair enough. I'll make an adjustment to my statement -

Listing the existence of Hirelings and the Favor System as a "new" advantage for people shows just how out of touch your experiences learning this game are from 99.99%+ of DDO players.

Most all those things you listed don't effect a new person except dungeon scaling and caster SLA's (which you didn't mention but are a big help)

New people don't have ship buffs, Starter gear has not significantly changed (yes I know it has since 2006 i mean since f2p), Favor is not a factor, new people can't be assumed to have wiki meta knowledge, The Store is not a factor until someone commits to the game, the good enhancements don't unlock yet (except the SLAs. which are really super good)

Thats all stuff that makes it easier for me and you but, again, don't apply to a new person very much.

...and in any case I didn't say anything about easier or harder.

I said Champions make the game "more prohibitive". i.e less free, less friendly and a less open and welcoming world for new people.

So tell me more how the favor reward system out-weighs the fact that all LFMS posted are for a setting they are not intended to play.

The game is much easier for experienced players, due to the things you listed and others, and a bit easier for new people (particularly casters)...

But it's also now a much more prohibitive game to start with the addition of Champions in the starter areas.

Should this be our new ad copy?

"Start DDO today! - There will be zero groups posted for you to join!, We don't "envision" you doing anything but repeat the same boring Normal setting over and over by yourself!"
.

First lifers will either have to join a group or pay to unlock elite so yes they will be on normal.
Have you tried posting an LFM when you TR to help new players get through korthos or do you solo it with a hireling?
SLA's and the new enhancement systems made the game rather easy.
The starter gear has not been updated but they also do grant something new that we didn't have awhile back, PRR and MRR. The full plate I got for artificer and some ship buffs granted me 35 PRR which practically nullified all damage in korthos except for some champions, yes new players wont have a ship buff right away for all the bonuses I do realize this. But without a group to send them one they will be running normal->hard->elite.

I do post LFM's at low levels, I'll run with my TR group with an LFM posted for others. I like to help new players as well as my TR partner, teaching someone new to the game is much more fun then the normal xp grind all of us completionist know all so well. I can't help them though if they dont apply or say they are new.

I did ask a new player his opinion on champion mobs. Since to him they have been in the game forever. His response was they didn't bother him too much but he did get annoyed that he couldn't turn a champion orange wight priest.
Now he doesn't speak for every new player but assuming every one of them will quit because the game is to tough is false.

[GoldyGopher]

I like the concept of champions, but am uninspired by the current implementation.

While running "In the Flesh" on Elite over the weekend ...

• We got Pyzkyl as a Champion, he died so quickly I am not sure what his buffs were because by the time I had him up in the window and went to examine him he was dead; honestly it was like he was bugged or something. Not an instant death our Rouge got off a couple of sneak attacks and down he went.
• Out of the 175(+) Mobs we faced prior to the end fight, I doubt we had 20 Champions, more like 10 (including Pyzkyl)
• In the end fight at least every other spawn was a champion. The buff they all got, extra HP and more damage. I mean a metric long ton of HP was their buff.

There are a lot of mobs in this game that have too many HP to begin with, just giving mobs more HP so they become a HP bag is not fun. There was no challenge in the end fight except for how fast we could take down the mobs with super inflated HP. Non-champions fell in 3-4-5 seconds, champions almost a minute. That may be extreme for both cases but you get the idea.

Running "Lords of Dust" on Epic Elite came across Bastion, you know Orange Named Rare Dog Spawn, it was well over three minutes of a full party swinging away at him to take him down.

The quests we ran on Hard (there were a lot of them) in most cases you wondered why the champions were champions, whopty do it took an extra swing or two to take them down, they are way to nerfed and way to rare to even matter.

[phillymiket]

First lifers will either have to join a group or pay to unlock elite so yes they will be on normal.
Have you tried posting an LFM when you TR to help new players get through korthos or do you solo it with a hireling?
SLA's and the new enhancement systems made the game rather easy.
The starter gear has not been updated but they also do grant something new that we didn't have awhile back, PRR and MRR. The full plate I got for artificer and some ship buffs granted me 35 PRR which practically nullified all damage in korthos except for some champions, yes new players wont have a ship buff right away for all the bonuses I do realize this. But without a group to send them one they will be running normal->hard->elite.

I do post LFM's at low levels, I'll run with my TR group with an LFM posted for others. I like to help new players as well as my TR partner, teaching someone new to the game is much more fun then the normal xp grind all of us completionist know all so well. I can't help them though if they dont apply or say they are new.

I did ask a new player his opinion on champion mobs. Since to him they have been in the game forever. His response was they didn't bother him too much but he did get annoyed that he couldn't turn a champion orange wight priest.
Now he doesn't speak for every new player but assuming every one of them will quit because the game is to tough is false.

-Ah jeez again with the "unlock" argument. Of course a new player will need to run through something on Normal if they are first time solo. Obvious point is obvious.
They'd probably do Normal first anyway even if it wasn't locked.
The point is that in the past for me and you, we got to quickly progress beyond that, even solo.
Even if you choose not to progress and just stay on Normal, the option was there if you planned and thought about your mistakes and tried again. Death by Random Buff is befuddling and hard to learn from.

- I'm bad about grouping before level 7 or so. i just want those levels to fly past. Point well taken, i could help more like I used to do. The TR system compels me toward speed on Elite. So it's societies fault not mine ;-)

- I don't assume everyone will leave because of Champions. That would be false and silly. Some will like them, some will grow to like them, some never will like them, some won't care. Just like everything in the world that isn't bacon or taxes.

My assumptions are as follows:
- A player is most likely to bond with a game with their first few experiences.
- People are more likely to bond with a game if they can see more of it and have the broadest possible experience that includes grouping.
- Champions add a randomness and difficulty that could potentially turn away some new players who might otherwise be fine with them at higher levels when they have, for ex, good armor with PRR and a guild.
- Champions force new players to solo on a boring level or group at a level they may not be comfortable with, or, force them to create their own groups which many new players (myself included) are reluctant to do.
- DDO needs everyone they can get and can't afford to needlessly lose people they otherwise may have gotten.
- Therefore, don't have Champions in the starter area.

What possible benefit does having Champions on Korthos Island bring to the table that outweighs losing even a small percent of new players?

[count_spicoli]

Champions need to go back to pre nerf status. Right now they are a joke. Back to solo zerging like it was pre champ.

If your a sorc and you have high ele resist mob why not throw a hold on him and let the melee beat him down.

Or if your a rogue and you are in mask of deception why not have the 2000 hp paladin open the door. Guarantee he doesn't get 1 shot.

If the wizard with 300 hp runs off to solo part of the dungeon and gets one shot instead of waiting g for the barb with 650 to get aggro is it the games fault or the dumb dumb zerger.

Right now I am at level 17 on my pm who I tr'd the day after champions first hit. If I am running along and insta Killin everything and come across a champ with dw I hold him and let them melee smack him down. Pre champ no melee would ever enjoy running with me on a pm because they would just be spectators in my quest. Champ pre nerf I had to be careful for one shots and I had to do some CC and work with my comrades for completion.

I loved everything about the pre nerf champs and really hope they bring them back.

And if the people who are complaining about elite being to hard and you are soloing then stop right there. ELITE IMO IN THIS GAME SHOULD BE VERY VERY DIFFICULT TO SOLO. It should be intended for group play. Really for the most part right now there is not a good group setting that has challenge. And that is a shame for an MMO

[Seikojin]

I like the concept of champions, but am uninspired by the current implementation.

While running "In the Flesh" on Elite over the weekend ...

• We got Pyzkyl as a Champion, he died so quickly I am not sure what his buffs were because by the time I had him up in the window and went to examine him he was dead; honestly it was like he was bugged or something. Not an instant death our Rouge got off a couple of sneak attacks and down he went.
• Out of the 175(+) Mobs we faced prior to the end fight, I doubt we had 20 Champions, more like 10 (including Pyzkyl)
• In the end fight at least every other spawn was a champion. The buff they all got, extra HP and more damage. I mean a metric long ton of HP was their buff.

There are a lot of mobs in this game that have too many HP to begin with, just giving mobs more HP so they become a HP bag is not fun. There was no challenge in the end fight except for how fast we could take down the mobs with super inflated HP. Non-champions fell in 3-4-5 seconds, champions almost a minute. That may be extreme for both cases but you get the idea.

Running "Lords of Dust" on Epic Elite came across Bastion, you know Orange Named Rare Dog Spawn, it was well over three minutes of a full party swinging away at him to take him down.

The quests we ran on Hard (there were a lot of them) in most cases you wondered why the champions were champions, whopty do it took an extra swing or two to take them down, they are way to nerfed and way to rare to even matter.

You bring some good points here. Obviously there are some bugs on how crowning a mob alters its stats. I dunno how the champ crown buffs or alters an enemy, but my best educated guess after killing a bunch of them is this:
Mob spawn goes to occur; check difficulty, roll to champ. If champed (hard or elite version gets crowned)...
Apply CR+x HP bonus, Apply Y Random abilities from Hard or elite table.

I think instead of measuring the values and then doing something, the champ crown should take existing values and increase them. Like HP*5 for hard and hp*10 for elite.

Skeletons that get crowned sometimes aren't crowned until they are halway spawning, and during that time, you beat down on their old hp values. When they get crowned, it just boosts their max hp, so if you beat the skele to 86 out of 300 hp, it gets crowned, it will be 86 out of 1000 hp and die fast. I am pretty sure it is the same for all champs that get crowned after taking damage. So that can make many champs drop like flies.

Also put champs in raids.

[phillymiket]

Skeletons that get crowned sometimes aren't crowned until they are halway spawning, and during that time, you beat down on their old hp values. When they get crowned, it just boosts their max hp, so if you beat the skele to 86 out of 300 hp, it gets crowned, it will be 86 out of 1000 hp and die fast. I am pretty sure it is the same for all champs that get crowned after taking damage. So that can make many champs drop like flies..

Yes this may be it.

Go into a quest that has static mobs to start, like "Come out and Slay".

You will see some mobs with crowns and some without before they become active.

When they go active they seem to "re-roll", sometimes gaining a crown, sometimes losing, and sometimes staying the same.

Sometimes when a mob gains a crown these "new' Champions don't seem to be any tougher with the crown, though the buffs say they should be.

So the re-roll buffs sometimes don't stick, it seems. Could the opposite be happening also?

Or to say another way, a when a mob transforms, respawns, or becomes active a re-roll for Champion Status seems to happen, sometimes the buff sticks, sometimes it doesn't.

Therefore, sometimes you have "paper tigers" that have no buffs when they don't stick,

but could it be that other times, when a Champion re-rolls into a Champion again the Buffs actually stack, therefore, we have the one-shotters and the super HP mobs who are actually 'double Champions' but only showing the latest buffs?

?maybe?

If so, that could maybe mean that simply setting the mobs to roll for Champ status only once when they first become active and no other time could solve the bugged Champions and also the NCP Champions in one simple move. (but I'm no computer guy or nuthin)

[MonadRebelion]

And if the people who are complaining about elite being to hard and you are soloing then stop right there. ELITE IMO IN THIS GAME SHOULD BE VERY VERY DIFFICULT TO SOLO. It should be intended for group play. Really for the most part right now there is not a good group setting that has challenge. And that is a shame for an MMO

Ja wohl! This is exactly the case.

I have no idea where people are getting the idea the champions are making the game too difficult for new players. I have never heard new players say they are quitting because Hard and Elite are too difficult. I have heard a lot of new players complain that the game isn't fun because when they group up all the vets zerg ahead leaving nothing for them to do. I am playing with brand new people now. A handful of them no basically nothing about dnd, and they are loving the game. What these players want is to run with other players at their skill level. They are excited to share information with each other as they learn more about the game. They are happy to have a vet to run with, who will answer questions they have with short answers, who will help them learn the rules a little at a time, and who will run quests at their pace. They do not care about getting lots of xp fast. They do not care about how difficult elite is. The new players I am running with are excited about everything they are doing in game because they have an appropriate support system for them in game. If you are worried about new player retention the thing you can do to help is find new players, bring them together in a group, give the help they want, don't try to give them the help they don't want. I have nothing to draw from in my experience to suggest new players quit the game, because Elite is too difficult.

The only cases of players I've heard who seem to have a genuine concern about champions being too hard are people with a story like, "We are a two person family team. Hard was the perfect difficulty for us. Now we can only play Normal which is way too easy." If you're worried about people quitting over champions, my guess is those are the guys you have to worry about.

[Keladon]

Ja wohl! This is exactly the case.

I have no idea where people are getting the idea the champions are making the game too difficult for new players. I have never heard new players say they are quitting because Hard and Elite are too difficult. I have heard a lot of new players complain that the game isn't fun because when they group up all the vets zerg ahead leaving nothing for them to do. I am playing with brand new people now. A handful of them no basically nothing about dnd, and they are loving the game. What these players want is to run with other players at their skill level. They are excited to share information with each other as they learn more about the game. They are happy to have a vet to run with, who will answer questions they have with short answers, who will help them learn the rules a little at a time, and who will run quests at their pace. They do not care about getting lots of xp fast. They do not care about how difficult elite is. The new players I am running with are excited about everything they are doing in game because they have an appropriate support system for them in game. If you are worried about new player retention the thing you can do to help is find new players, bring them together in a group, give the help they want, don't try to give them the help they don't want. I have nothing to draw from in my experience to suggest new players quit the game, because Elite is too difficult.

The only cases of players I've heard who seem to have a genuine concern about champions being too hard are people with a story like, "We are a two person family team. Hard was the perfect difficulty for us. Now we can only play Normal which is way too easy." If you're worried about people quitting over champions, my guess is those are the guys you have to worry about.

That is part of the problem, most of the LFM's I see are for elite, this can give new players the impression that elite is the standard difficulty. When they do join a party like that, they see people rushing and zerging.. again, this could give the impression that the game encourages that playstyle. YOU have the patience to play at their pace, but that's definitly not always the case for someone who just wants to finish his xth life as fast as possible.

Also: Your experience. Everyone has his own experience with new players and it would be great if they were all that positive, but in my experience they aren't.

[Braegan]

Ok, fair enough. I'll make an adjustment to my statement -

I totally buy that you, Braegan, and all the other founders in 2006 did play on normal when the game was much much harder at the very launch.

I was talking about f2p and on, your experiences in 2006 were totally different. From 2006-2008 the game really was a beast even at the start. I'll give you that for sure.

Listing the existence of Hirelings and the Favor System as a "new" advantage for people shows just how out of touch your experiences learning this game are from 99.99%+ of DDO players.

Most all those things you listed don't effect a new person except dungeon scaling and caster SLA's (which you didn't mention but are a big help)

New people don't have ship buffs, Starter gear has not significantly changed (yes I know it has since 2006 i mean since f2p), Favor is not a factor, new people can't be assumed to have wiki meta knowledge, The Store is not a factor until someone commits to the game, the good enhancements don't unlock yet (except the SLAs. which are really super good)

Thats all stuff that makes it easier for me and you but, again, don't apply to a new person very much.

...and in any case I didn't say anything about easier or harder.

I said Champions make the game "more prohibitive". i.e less free, less friendly and a less open and welcoming world for new people.

So tell me more how the favor reward system out-weighs the fact that all LFMS posted are for a setting they are not intended to play.

The game is much easier for experienced players, due to the things you listed and others, and a bit easier for new people (particularly casters)...

But it's also now a much more prohibitive game to start with the addition of Champions in the starter areas.

Should this be our new ad copy?

"Start DDO today! - There will be zero groups posted for you to join!, We don't "envision" you doing anything but repeat the same boring Normal setting over and over by yourself!"

Yea! Sounds like fun. Sign me up.

Well I try not to find myself too out of touch with how new players might feel. It isn't entirely easy and of course some things I have forgotten. In 2009 when cap was raised to 20, ToD released, FTP came out and Cannith Server was launched, I rolled up a 28 pt build character on Cannith and capped it at 20. So I do know the feeling of not having twink gear, tomes, a lot of plat, etc and making my way through the game. So given that, I do feel I am experienced to talk about the differences in playing as a new character in 2006 and in 2009, albeit in '09 I still had game knowledge. The difference was huge and it's only gotten easier.

Hirelings were listed as a bonus because (when they work ) they can provide heals, rezzes, etc. A lot of melee leveling up grab a divine hire. In heroics they are fine, in epics aside from a mass Dward at the start they are mostly useless.

Favor rewards were listed as a bonus because as a new player without gear or permanent ship buffs, House P buffs are a boon.

Any new person that finds themselves in a group will most likely be offered ship buffs. Anytime I've pugged at least one person asks if anyone needs an invite. Not to mention some guilds and korthos recruiting. Hey, I'm not gonna knock them, that's another thread in and of itself, but they do exist and many new players find them selves in these guilds with access to buffs. So no a new person might not start out the gate with ship buffs, but not too long in a group and wandering around without a guild tag and they are more likely to have them.

Starter gear and just the gear you get running korthos and harbor is light years ahead of what gear was in '06 and much better than it was in '09. Getting a plain +1 Shock Longsword was something you would brag about at level 6-8 in '06. Now half the harbor quest give equal or better. So yes that gear plays a part, doing more damage usually helps a quest along.

I'll give you enhancements at very low levels doesn't play as big a part. But it's not to far off that the new enhancements start offering some of that nice low hanging fruit.

Wiki and Forums are here, I know most wont bother but the info is there. You see ads to visit the forums on the launcher, the forums mention the wiki a lot. It's not unreasonable that a new person couldn't find and use them. I do agree most won't but I still count it as a boon as it's a large source of information that wasn't around before. Really just imagine...when really no one knew what to expect in a quest because 99% of the server (game) hadn't run it yet. But I digress.

The Store again is a resource if players want it. It's kind of hard not to know the store exists with the splash screens, tool tips, etc.

The LFM and Elite being the norm and champions now are all together a hot mess. I will agree on that. It does make it tougher on new folks. I do still see some LFMs for "exploring" "no zergers!" on normal. While they are the minority, some are just posting their own lfms instead of joining ones they are not comfortable with. If only more folks would step up and do this, the game would be better off for all sides.

Previously I agreed that Korthos can be champ free. It is the kids gloves on kind of zone so I am fine with that. Something tells me they are unable to code that efficiently, however. Just like heroic hard and epic hard are tied together from my understanding. I don't know this for sure, I am not an IT guy, but I get that feeling.

Lastly, I keep seeing it brought up about taking it super easy on the newbies. I have to say not all newbies are wandering around lost and confused like I did in the marketplace tent trying to find my way out for thirty minutes. I've met a good amount of players that were new to ddo but came from other games. They did not want to be coddled. They were from hard core raiding guilds and were only interested in finding guilds like that here and making powerful builds. Just food for thought.

[Keladon]

Previously I agreed that Korthos can be champ free. It is the kids gloves on kind of zone so I am fine with that. Something tells me they are unable to code that efficiently, however. Just like heroic hard and epic hard are tied together from my understanding. I don't know this for sure, I am not an IT guy, but I get that feeling.

I'm afraid this might be the case. That they can't remove champions from certain quests, prevent certain mobs from being 'championed' or even flag some escort npc's to always be a champion (would be better than the current situation).
I don't even know if they can make it so that certain mobs only get certain buffs.

If it's possible I would really like to have a dev response about this, at least that way we can move on from the "Make korthos champion free" discussion.
And then we also know if they can ever fix the issues that champions have caused.

[phillymiket]

Previously I agreed that Korthos can be champ free. It is the kids gloves on kind of zone so I am fine with that. Something tells me they are unable to code that efficiently, however. Just like heroic hard and epic hard are tied together from my understanding. I don't know this for sure, I am not an IT guy, but I get that feeling.

YEAY!!! :-D +1

That's the only thing i care about in this arguement, is the starter areas.

/salute

Don't get me wrong, arguing about where EE Champs should be set is important too.

But not having Champions on Korthos, to me, is a complete no-brainer and people are doing the game a disservice by arguing otherwise simply because of their feelings about Champion Nerfs on EE.

I like me some Champions. i liked them pre-nerf too.

But throwing a monkey-wrench in the "Recruitment Machine" is just foolish.

Korthos was a very very well designed area before Champions and balanced better than any other area in the whole game.

By just making it a tiny but flashier it could still be a good draw even as old as this game is. Champions isn't helping. Wrong place for a pretty good idea.

[Connman]

Ja wohl! This is exactly the case.

I have no idea where people are getting the idea the champions are making the game too difficult for new players. I have never heard new players say they are quitting because Hard and Elite are too difficult. I have heard a lot of new players complain that the game isn't fun because when they group up all the vets zerg ahead leaving nothing for them to do. I am playing with brand new people now. A handful of them no basically nothing about dnd, and they are loving the game. What these players want is to run with other players at their skill level. They are excited to share information with each other as they learn more about the game. They are happy to have a vet to run with, who will answer questions they have with short answers, who will help them learn the rules a little at a time, and who will run quests at their pace. They do not care about getting lots of xp fast. They do not care about how difficult elite is. The new players I am running with are excited about everything they are doing in game because they have an appropriate support system for them in game. If you are worried about new player retention the thing you can do to help is find new players, bring them together in a group, give the help they want, don't try to give them the help they don't want. I have nothing to draw from in my experience to suggest new players quit the game, because Elite is too difficult.

The only cases of players I've heard who seem to have a genuine concern about champions being too hard are people with a story like, "We are a two person family team. Hard was the perfect difficulty for us. Now we can only play Normal which is way too easy." If you're worried about people quitting over champions, my guess is those are the guys you have to worry about.

This, also, My wife and I are one of those 2 man family teams. You want to know her feelings on champions, she works 7 on and 7 off, so she got to play with the champions pre-nerf 1 time. So if champions are bothering you, well at least you can quit out of the game, if they are bothering you on the forums you can close the forums. But in my house, I just have to listen to and I quote, "Well it sucks I got cheated out of even checking the champions out before they nerfed them because of a bunch of whiny crybabies that couldn't let it go for longer than a week," every time the champions comes up in my house. So there you go, just be glad you don't have a wife yelling at you like it's your fault.

[Braegan]

Korthos was a very very well designed area before Champions and balanced better than any other area in the whole game.

By just making it a tiny but flashier it could still be a good draw even as old as this game is. Champions isn't helping. Wrong place for a pretty good idea.

If it were me, at the same time level cap goes to 30 and some raids, high level quests, end game goodness is released I would launch a new lowbie zone. Korthos is kind of old and not altogether original. Shipwrecked huh? The newbie zone is the first impression, go big on it. Then do a marketing push with themed: Level Cap Increase! New Starter Zone! Then...profit!

And then perhaps since it would be a fresh coding for a new zone it could be done champ free with greater ease. This I don't know about because again I have no idea what is and isn't possible.

Who knows, maybe I'll win the powerball, buy DDO and make it happen.

[Seikojin]

Yes this may be it.

Go into a quest that has static mobs to start, like "Come out and Slay".

You will see some mobs with crowns and some without before they become active.

When they go active they seem to "re-roll", sometimes gaining a crown, sometimes losing, and sometimes staying the same.

Sometimes when a mob gains a crown these "new' Champions don't seem to be any tougher with the crown, though the buffs say they should be.

So the re-roll buffs sometimes don't stick, it seems. Could the opposite be happening also?

Or to say another way, a when a mob transforms, respawns, or becomes active a re-roll for Champion Status seems to happen, sometimes the buff sticks, sometimes it doesn't.

Therefore, sometimes you have "paper tigers" that have no buffs when they don't stick,

but could it be that other times, when a Champion re-rolls into a Champion again the Buffs actually stack, therefore, we have the one-shotters and the super HP mobs who are actually 'double Champions' but only showing the latest buffs?

?maybe?

If so, that could maybe mean that simply setting the mobs to roll for Champ status only once when they first become active and no other time could solve the bugged Champions and also the NCP Champions in one simple move. (but I'm no computer guy or nuthin)

Oh I am sure that can happen and does happen. Thinking on the game logic from what I have experienced, nothing shy of rebuilding the entire game could adequately fix this kind of problem though. For the HP thing: changing the base formula would help. Having it apply the bonus hp to current and max would be useful to keep a champ from insta-death if the crowning comes slower than incoming damage.

YEAY!!! :-D +1

That's the only thing i care about in this arguement, is the starter areas.

/salute

Don't get me wrong, arguing about where EE Champs should be set is important too.

But not having Champions on Korthos, to me, is a complete no-brainer and people are doing the game a disservice by arguing otherwise simply because of their feelings about Champion Nerfs on EE.

I like me some Champions. i liked them pre-nerf too.

But throwing a monkey-wrench in the "Recruitment Machine" is just foolish.

Korthos was a very very well designed area before Champions and balanced better than any other area in the whole game.

By just making it a tiny but flashier it could still be a good draw even as old as this game is. Champions isn't helping. Wrong place for a pretty good idea.

If they can flag out certain quests in the champ config file, then yes, they could have champs off during korthos quests. However this would make some sticker shock and confusion without something to introduce champions to them.