Monster Champion Feedback

[Sehenry03]

Well they didn't specifically say the game will be around in 2016, but the did say their board is full plans for months to come.

Champions are here to stay. Get used to it or drop to a difficulty you can handle.

And they wouldn't be going through the hassle of making ToEE if they planned on dumping the game anytime soon. Right now all signs point to 3+ years of playing time and only time will tell on this also =)

[Keladon]

Nevermind, not going to answer all those spam posts.

"Monster Champion Feedback", that's the thread title.

So why are you pretending to know what the future will bring in a feedback thread?
Also: Holiday season - there - an explanation for a population increase.
Cause - effect. Just stop linking 2 things together to fit your need when you obviously can't prove it.

[Qhualor]

Lol. Been hearing the same thing since my F2P butt walked through the DDO door.

"This is the year! Watch and see! One of these years I'll be right! DDO is cash grabbing and fire saling to make as much as they can now!"

[Sehenry03]

http://ddoracle.com/

Look at the logins on Sarlona from when the update was added. You will see a slight but STEADY increase from the beginning of the month to now.

Now this does not take into accounts Subs but it DOES show more activity which proves more people have been online on Sarlona since the update...oh wait DDOracle is probably guessing to?

[flagged]

Excessive exaggeration isn't really productive or helpful

Let's all give a big hand to tonight's apologist!

[FestusHood]

For people who might still be complaining about being 1 shot now...Con is not a dump stat. Even a new player can get more then enough HP's to avoid being 1 shot if they pay attention. The only issue I see now is casters running out of mana killing a meatbag champion and even that is not a big deal anymore as they are not as bad as they were before.

I ran into a couple of champion ice flensers in the quest Invaders on a sorc. With 29 con I wouldn't say i exactly dumped it. One hit me with a polar ray that put me at -225 hit points.

Later in that same quest, i ran into a champion flesh render. He had the elemental absorption buff. Absorbs fire, electric, and cold, but on the upside he is vulnerable to acid. Problem is, he is naturally resistant to acid spells. Want to note that every time i have run into one of these "absorption" mobs, be it physical or element, their absorptions are in the neighborhood of 80% or more?

So what is the best way to take down the champion that absorbs all 4 elements on my caster sorc? Magic missiles?

[N-0cturn]

Some further feedback, after I played some more with the new champions:

Bugs:
- sometimes champions start with only a percentage of their hp bar.

Epic Hard & Epic Elite:
I enjoyed the additional challenge - no concerns here

Heroic Hard:
No idea, don't play Heroic Hard because of Bravery Bonus

Heroic Elite:
I played lvl 5-7 quests on Elite
- some champions had quite a bit of HP but I did not feel like it took to long to kill them
- "white named" champions were much more dangerous than orange named champions because they had a higher damage. One example where I noticed this were the trolls in Redwillow's Ruins (The white named troll hit about twice as hard as the orange named (both champs)). Overall my feeling was that the damage for "normal" champions was too high. Especially Trolls, Ogres and Trog Shamans were quite challenging even with ship buffs and good gear.
- From what I've seen this caused quite a bit of frustration for newer players.

I think you should have another look at the formula for the champion damage and if it is appropriate for Heroics.

I also think you should consider removing the "streak" from the Bravery Bonus, because otherwise this will separate the new players from the vets, who are unwilling to join a lower difficulty because it breaks the streak. This was not as much of an issue without champions but since you make Elite challenging for vets you also made it inaccessible for new players.

[RapkintheRanger]

I was initially deeply annoyed by champions (but maybe jsut had a bad experience before they were changed). I am less annoyed now.


1a. If champs have to stay, i don't like the hats or crowns or whatever they are... Could they not be given an aura, something that looks like a blur or displacement mist around them? this would let you see them better but would not look as silly as the hat.

1b. If they have an aura, could the colour of the aura not denote the type of buff the creature has? red aura = extra damage, blue aura = magic resistance, green aura = elemental resistance, purple = extra HP.... or whatever?

2. Is there any consideration of giving people an additional difficulty level where every mob is a champ? Don't give anything else. Just let people have the bragging rights for beating it for the same loot / EXP as elite? Anyone who thinks the game is too easy now has a challenge.

3. I still don't like them for several reasons.

3a. I don't like quests to take longer. If i am an ice sorc with a little back up electricity (one of my builds). I already skip quests like Haunted halls, breaking the ranks and break in the ice on this build because the dragon/giants are immune to ice and using 3000 SP on weak little sonic blast spell or whatever is tedious and boring. I already avoid areas like the necropolis because large number so of skeletons are a pain and i imagine they are there. But now once in a while a skeleton champ shows up and is a tremendous pain because of the HP point when it might have been a minor inconvenience before. What this does then is causes me to skip more quests so my overspecialized build can be playable.

3b. I don't like hirelings, but i sometimes use them despite their inadequacies. Now with increased likelihood of instant death i am in greater need of a hire, and because hires do not follow directions, i have to keep raising them so that they might be alive if i die. This is just a pain.

3c. I don't like dying. In general i don't die, or i do die and i don't care, but i was soloing Yalthoon heroic elite at level with a level 15 pally and the game spawned all kinds of champ-trash including three or four renders which boxed me in so i could not move, and one beholder who killed my magic so i could not heal myself. I suppose mobility or tumble might have saved me here on a pally build? But to get killed by a beholder because i was boxed in by inflated HP mobs felt cheap after such a long quest. Yalthoon, no threat, but 3 flesh renders and a beholder? Not a glorious death. That sucked and that has soured my experience of champions. They slow you down, reduce playable quests, make hirelings mroe necessary and more irritating and sometimes cause you to die in a most uninteresting way.

4. Small scaling EXP boost or guild renown boost for killing each champ so they are not just a waste of time?


I will continue to play the game regardless.

[whyyme]

ill do a TLR version

Chaimpions elimate two of 3 rolls to play in Tanks and Healers.
Being 1 shotted makes tanks and healers useless.

Nerfing the damage on the champions might bring them back, but for now everyone ive spoken to said they would rather now be pure dps in heroics.

My personal opinion is that 4k hps in a lvl 15 quest is just too much espcialy when they hit you for 500+ dmg a hit.......

[MonadRebelion]

I also think you should consider removing the "streak" from the Bravery Bonus, because otherwise this will separate the new players from the vets, who are unwilling to join a lower difficulty because it breaks the streak. This was not as much of an issue without champions but since you make Elite challenging for vets you also made it inaccessible for new players.

I don't really understand the worries people have about new players not getting to run with vets. In my experience new players don't like running with vets, and for good reason. Vets zerg quests that new players want to experience at a much slower pace. As far as I can tell, the people who tend to worry about new players not being able to run quests with vets aren't people who would describe themselves as new players. If new players want to run behind zerging veteran players to victory, I don't see that there is much of a barrier to that. As far as I can tell, most vets in zerg mode don't care if you contribute to pugs. They may start to care if you start doing things to prevent completion, but most people don't expect much of a contribution from you. For the most it seems to me vets are posting lfms as a courtesy, or because it's just more fun to run with other people. So, there's no barrier to new players teaming up with vets. If you want vets to actively work with new players, then you will have to add mechanics that make teamwork really beneficial or necessary. As it stands, the main reason I see for vets to run with new players in a way that makes the game fun for new players is because it will likely help the longevity of the game. You might also like actually helping people too. I suppose that's possible.

Given all that, I don't see why champions should by looked at as a negative. There are enough people complaining about how hard champions are that I'd bet if the people who can no longer complete elite quest would team up with each other or the new players they are worried about, they could actually complete quests. You might even make some new friends and have fun too. So there you go. The hated champions could solve your problems. What a bitter pill.

[MisterCanoeHead]

http://ddoracle.com/

Look at the logins on Sarlona from when the update was added. You will see a slight but STEADY increase from the beginning of the month to now.

Now this does not take into accounts Subs but it DOES show more activity which proves more people have been online on Sarlona since the update...oh wait DDOracle is probably guessing to?

I'm not sure if you somehow managed to miss it, but the last time that site was updated was October 22. So, well before update 24.

Claiming that logins have increased after update 24 was released is sheer fabrication.

Nice try though.

[Hendrik]

New players to the game, trying to protect a crystal and an old man, may decide quickly to uninstall the game when champions cause them to fail their quests. Remove champions from Korthos Island. This should have been a self-evident game decision at the beginning, assuming DDO wishes to attract new players and retain them through the first few levels.

NEW players are NOT expected to be running Hard or Elite right out of the gate.

This is WAI as stated by Turbine.

[Keladon]

NEW players are NOT expected to be running Hard or Elite right out of the gate.

This is WAI as stated by Turbine.

"We don't expect them to" =/= "They shouldn't" or even "They won't"

Just because they don't expect it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen or that it's not something people want to try or do.

They probably didn't expect people to run naked shrouds either, yet it happens.

There's a reason they chose to use the word "expect".

[Faltout]

Replying to the concerns about new players leaving the game because of monster champions:

When I was a new player I had just installed DDO to help substitute the lack of PnP sessions at the time. So I was all excited, read the instruction pdf that came with the game (don't know if this still exists) learned the basics of the UI. I loaded on the shore of Korthos finding out about the tutorial tips. They were great advice and learned many things from them. When I went to do my first quest in Korthos, I read the tooltips for the difficulties.
Solo: This difficulty is designed for solo play and is lower than normal
Normal: This difficulty is designed for solo play for adventurers with some experience
Hard: This difficulty is designed for parties or solo play for skilled adventurers.
Elite: This difficulty is designed for balanced parties.
Call me stupid, but I believed the tooltips to be right. So I went in on Normal as I already had some experience from other MMOs and had read the manual. 3 quests later I discovered how the social panel worked and joined a group. We did quests on normal because noone could open a harder difficulty. Then we went up to elite but managing to have a balanced group.

The new players don't know what to expect from the champions. If a champion is one-shotting the Cannith Crystal (when I first played the quest, I thought that this crystal couldn't actually be destroyed since many had hit it to no effect) then they will think this is how it was supposed to be and adapt to overcome it.

That said, the issues with champions still stand. They can't have high level or epic buffs in low levels. Dealing an extra 20 points of damage with every attack that also deals more damage (because champion) and have more HP (because... champion) is BS. No level 3 party can provide that much DPS to kill the mob before a party wipe. Especially when it's a ranged one.

[Sehenry03]

I ran into a couple of champion ice flensers in the quest Invaders on a sorc. With 29 con I wouldn't say i exactly dumped it. One hit me with a polar ray that put me at -225 hit points.

Later in that same quest, i ran into a champion flesh render. He had the elemental absorption buff. Absorbs fire, electric, and cold, but on the upside he is vulnerable to acid. Problem is, he is naturally resistant to acid spells. Want to note that every time i have run into one of these "absorption" mobs, be it physical or element, their absorptions are in the neighborhood of 80% or more?

So what is the best way to take down the champion that absorbs all 4 elements on my caster sorc? Magic missiles?

To be fair...Ice Flensers were already OP with Polar Ray. I run GoP and I ALWAYS played the second brother like a crapshoot because I knew one bad fail on my part and a good roll on the Flensers part and I was dead. This is not a good example of 1 shotting as it is not new. Is it worse now? Of course when a mob could 1 shot before and now you add a damage buff to them it becomes much worse. The fact is though straight 1 shotting is rare. yes it happens but it is rare if you have decent HP's. I was on my 21 druid last night and ran the entire 3BC chain on EE with a couple guidlies and a couple random people. I wasn't 1 shotted ONCE or even close (except in the last quest when the ship blew up). I had good HP's but I was in the middle of the pack with HP's and still not one shotted. The sorc was a few times but he had around 400 hp's at lvl 25 and that's just asking for 1 shotting EVERYWHERE.

The high resist mobs suck...plain and simple. If you read my posts I have said over and over that the meatbags are the ONLY bad part of champs. These guys suck but they are still doable. Yes they slow you down a lot. When I get a meatbag like this on my sorc I will just dragon them from mob to mob and keep hitting them with AoE while I kill other mobs in the dungeon without blowing all my mana on that one mob OR firewall is your friend. Its not perfect but getting that high HP mob AND having huge resists is rare. I do hope they look at this but I also think it is part of Turbines plans to slow us down *shrug*

[Vooduspyce]

I loved champions when they first came out. I'm really disappointed they got nerfed.

Would love to see a check box added at the difficulty screen to turn champs on and off. +20% xp when checked. That way people that are actually looking for a challenge can have them turned on and get a reward for it and the rest of the people can keep complaining that elite is too easy. Everyone wins.

[Oxarhamar]

NEW players are NOT expected to be running Hard or Elite right out of the gate.

This is WAI as stated by Turbine.

they may not be but, they will end up in Elite early and often if they expect to join groups.

[FestusHood]

NEW players are NOT expected to be running Hard or Elite right out of the gate.

This is WAI as stated by Turbine.

When i very first started this game, the standard operating procedure was to run quests on normal first, then move up to running them on hard and then elite, BEFORE moving on to other, higher quests on normal. I had run the korthos quests on elite before i ever even moved into the harbor. This is before MOTU, so be you can' blame it on recent powercreep. I have been running with a new player who did this exact same thing before i met him.

I don't know any new player who ran through the entire game on normal before doing any of the quests on higher difficulty. The expectation that new players will not run on difficulties above normal is just not reasonable. Not now, and not before.

This is not intended as an argument for or against champions, just against the idea that new players will stick to normal difficulty.

[phillymiket]

When i very first started this game, the standard operating procedure was to run quests on normal first, then move up to running them on hard and then elite, BEFORE moving on to other, higher quests on normal. I had run the korthos quests on elite before i ever even moved into the harbor. This is before MOTU, so be you can' blame it on recent powercreep. I have been running with a new player who did this exact same thing before i met him.

I don't know any new player who ran through the entire game on normal before doing any of the quests on higher difficulty. The expectation that new players will not run on difficulties above normal is just not reasonable. Not now, and not before.

Yar. Me 2. I saw Elite in DDO before I ever saw the Harbor.

I just don't buy these completionist vets coming here saying they stuck to Normal exclusively for months and months when they were new.

Hijinks, i say.

For me and all the people I learned the game with, Normal, Hard and Elite were all run often.

Normal run with repetition at level, which then was actually at level meaning run a level 4 quest at level 4 and we always come back one level later for the Hard and Elite run.

Seeing as people now run Elite two levels over for the easiest BB completion, we were running Elite a level earlier than people run it now.

People need to stop all this play acting about how it was when they started.

You wanna say we should change the game to make Hard and Elite more prohibitive for new people, fine. We can debate that.

But don't tell me we aren't changing the game to be more prohibitive then when we all started because we clearly are.

[grudgebear]

Fortification Bypass let's monsters ignore player's fortification and Improved Fortification feat description says:

Improves your warforged fortification, granting you immunity to sneak attacks and extra damage from critical hits.

Does this feat help player to protect themselves from mob champions who has Fortification Bypass buff ?