Monster Champion Feedback

[Inoukchuk]

Without a reward system it would be pointless.

We enjoy challenge because challenge=better reward.

Otherwise it becomes "one and done".
then grind on the easiest difficulty that offers the best chance of reward repeatedly until you get what you want.
Adding Champions to make content more difficult for hard/elite does nothing except push people away from running hard/elite since the reward level did not change.

Catch 22 really. If you add rewards then you
a) add power creep, further causing problems with not enough difficulty or too fast to the non-existent "end game"

and/or

b) add perceived requirement to run higher difficulty for the favor/xp, making people complain about the increased difficulty

Until someone can suggest rewards that don't do one of the above, its quite the conundrum. I made a suggestion maybe a week ago in some thread (could have been this one even) that they add a sort of prestige system: add a new difficulty harder than elite, maybe every completion grant a stacking semi-permanent debuff (say -1mp and -1sp) but granting you a stacking hash mark or star indicating like an ace status. You get a permanent * next to your name for the highest level of hashmarks/5 your character has ever achieved. This adds challenge to those lacking it, adds goals, adds some kind of incentive, but doesn't add any power creep.

But it's just an idea, we need some other ideas of how to address the conundrum above.

[JOTMON]

Catch 22 really. If you add rewards then you
a) add power creep, further causing problems with not enough difficulty or too fast to the non-existent "end game"

and/or

b) add perceived requirement to run higher difficulty for the favor/xp, making people complain about the increased difficulty

Until someone can suggest rewards that don't do one of the above, its quite the conundrum. I made a suggestion maybe a week ago in some thread (could have been this one even) that they add a sort of prestige system: add a new difficulty harder than elite, maybe every completion grant a stacking semi-permanent debuff (say -1mp and -1sp) but granting you a stacking hash mark or star indicating like an ace status. You get a permanent * next to your name for the highest level of hashmarks/5 your character has ever achieved. This adds challenge to those lacking it, adds goals, adds some kind of incentive, but doesn't add any power creep.

But it's just an idea, we need some other ideas of how to address the conundrum above.

I had suggested astral shard fragments based on level of champions.. 100 convert into an astral shard... this would be a good enough reason for me to hunt Champions and not contribute to power creep.

add Champions category to the Monster manual with some bonus perk for assortment/total kills of champions... perhaps change your name colour (like the guild levels).

[Cordovan]

Thank you, everyone, for your continued feedback on Monster Champions. While this thread has veered around a bit in regard to topic, it's been fine, so thanks and keep it up!

It's likely that the current state of Monster Champions will continue through the holidays, so we can get some time with the system and give everyone the opportunity to play with them on a longer basis. We appreciate all of the interest in this topic.

[Krelar]

This is a followup to my feedback from earlier.

I did an iconic TR Thursday night and just got ack to 20 last night. I leveled up as a fighter/barbarian 2/18 PDK so this feedback is based on levels 15-20.
I elite streaked the entire way starting with Gianthold. A ran in a mix of solo and PUG's of various sizes.

I felt like the spawn rate was appropriate, they were a little rarer and I don't think I ever saw more than 2 spawn at once. (Which I consider a good thing)

There is still not enough time to actually inspect the mob and change tactics based on the buffs. So the only different treatment they got was being the first targets for my stunning blow or trip.
The one exception to this was mobs with high resistance to slashing damage, which is the type I normally use, they actually lived long enough for me to realize something wasn't working and change tactics.
If you expect people to actually change their tactics significantly, then there needs to be more of a visual indicator on the mob of what kinds of buffs it has.

[Seikojin]

Thank you, everyone, for your continued feedback on Monster Champions. While this thread has veered around a bit in regard to topic, it's been fine, so thanks and keep it up!

It's likely that the current state of Monster Champions will continue through the holidays, so we can get some time with the system and give everyone the opportunity to play with them on a longer basis. We appreciate all of the interest in this topic.

Grr, please make elite 10% chance and 70% orange named spawn chance. I would prefer elite having the 10%/100% for the respective spawn rates, and elite orange nameds having a 75% chance to drop a chest. Seems appropriate for the risk -> reward.

Leave hard as it is since there is soo much contention on the difficulty aspect of the subject. Heroic Elite could use the challenge and obviously so can epic elite. Hard is fine.

Also add them to raids. Just do it. Or do it on Lam so we can test and provide feedback. Please. Turn it on for lam this week and leave it until the 5th.

[Livmo]

Grr, please make elite 10% chance and 70% orange named spawn chance. I would prefer elite having the 10%/100% for the respective spawn rates, and elite orange nameds having a 75% chance to drop a chest. Seems appropriate for the risk -> reward.

Leave hard as it is since there is soo much contention on the difficulty aspect of the subject. Heroic Elite could use the challenge and obviously so can epic elite. Hard is fine.

Also add them to raids. Just do it. Or do it on Lam so we can test and provide feedback. Please. Turn it on for lam this week and leave it until the 5th.

I got used to, and converted to liking the 1st interation of Champs the more I played and adapted. After the change they feel too easy. I don't know the real numbers off the top of my head, but lets say it started off at 12 and got dialed down to 8. Lets try the middle of the road at 10 and kick the difficulty up 2 notches and drop Dungeon Alert?

Here is a funny way to say it.

I liked post-U24 Champs prior to them being nerfed.

EDIT ~ For the tinfoil hats my alterior motive is more chests. I would gladly take on more difficulty for more chests Now can I get a cosmetic tinfoil hat in game please? Please? Also for Christmas I want an Eternal Wand of Bacon with epic style heals similar to ham. Make the wand level 20 plus (or some higher level) so it can't be used by non-epic heroic toons.

[Scrabbler]

It's likely that the current state of Monster Champions will continue through the holidays, so we can get some time with the system and give everyone the opportunity to play with them on a longer basis. We appreciate all of the interest in this topic.

• The #1 problem with champs is where / how often they spawn.
• The #2 problem is visual presentation of Monster Champions and their buffs.
• The #3 problem is how Champions interact with Charm spells. Classes who can cast Charm-effects can cope with Champions much better than those who can't (in some scenarios, Champs make things easier for them!)
• #4 is that champ buff lists vary between difficulty settings.
  
  
• Currently on Hard, the champ spawn rate is too low in normal encounters. The rate is low enough so they hardly ever cause trouble in special tricky encounters (respawning mobs, ambushes, etc), but it's also so low they're almost a non-factor in regular combat. At this rate, you may as well have not bothered adding them at all.
  
  (Needless to say, the spawn rate is also too low on Normal!)
  
  
• As a minimal improvement to the low Champ rate on Hard, I suggest changing their buffs so you never get Champ In Name Only: guys with only 1-2 unnoticeable buffs. (That would improve visual presentation too!)

[phillymiket]

Why not instead of champions, for those players who want monsters to be more challenging just implement a "Custom" difficulty option when entering a quest, with sliders that do the following:

Increase monster to hit chance: Slider from 1 to 20 (for those with high AC) Bonus XP of 0.5% per to hit increase
Increase monster bonus damage: Slider from 1 to 100 (for those with bags of HP) Bonus XP of 0.2% per increase damage
Increase monster HP: Slider from 1 to 10,000 (for those who do way too much damage) Bonus XP of 0.01% per increases in HP

So a Player would play on "Elite Custom" and then crank up the difficulty of ALL the monsters in the dungeon based on what they personally feel is a challenge. That way, people who want a challenge can have it, people who don't can just not use it.

Would not work.

Many of the very same people who are in this thread who are talking about wanting challenge would exploit the living carp out of this system.

They would pick just a small handful of quests that can be completed in a not-as-intended fashion and run them exclusively at +130% XP.

Kind of like the guy who is cool with Champions in ToT because he just blasts them with his Verge anyway, rather than complete as intended.

The people who want to exploit something will find a way to ruin any system that grants a large bonus so large bonuses should not ever exist.

[phillymiket]

Thank you, everyone, for your continued feedback on Monster Champions. While this thread has veered around a bit in regard to topic, it's been fine, so thanks and keep it up!

It's likely that the current state of Monster Champions will continue through the holidays, so we can get some time with the system and give everyone the opportunity to play with them on a longer basis. We appreciate all of the interest in this topic.

Thanks for the update!

And thank you for allowing the free exchange of ideas on these forums.

Seriously,

Few games would allow this healthy exchange because of the criticisms of the game therein.

It's rare and special.

Ok...now to exercise the privilege you have so foolishly granted us...

Fixed that for you.

Thank you, everyone, for your continued bickering and feces slinging on Monster Champions. While this thread has jumped the rails in regard to topic, it's what it is, so thanks and keep it up!

It's likely that the current state of Monster Champions will continue until the end of time, so we can do other stuff that actually bring in money We appreciate all of the insanity displayed in this topic.

I sincerely wish a Joyous and Happy Holiday to you Cordo and all on the DDO team!

Peace and Eggnog.

[Inoukchuk]

Thanks for the update!

And thank you for allowing the free exchange of ideas on these forums.

Seriously,

Few games would allow this healthy exchange because of the criticisms of the game therein.

It's rare and special.

Ok...now to exercise the privilege you have so foolishly granted us...

Fixed that for you.



I sincerely wish a Joyous and Happy Holiday to you Cordo and all on the DDO team!

Peace and Eggnog.

2nd post today that made me LOL.

[Keladon]

Ritual Sacrifice, Paetus went down in less than 1 sec after 2 champion Windlasher mystics decided they liked him more than the person that was hitting them.

Quest failed because we were unlucky. No skill or gear involved.

Will keep posting situations like this so they can hopefully be fixed.

edit: This was on hard, not elite.

[Monkey-Boy]

Ritual Sacrifice, Paetus went down in less than 1 sec after 2 champion Windlasher mystics decided they liked him more than the person that was hitting them.

Quest failed because we were unlucky. No skill or gear involved.

Will keep posting situations like this so they can hopefully be fixed.

And this is why champions are a bad idea. The randomness give the potential to break any encounter.

[Qhualor]

Ritual Sacrifice, Paetus went down in less than 1 sec after 2 champion Windlasher mystics decided they liked him more than the person that was hitting them.

Quest failed because we were unlucky. No skill or gear involved.

Will keep posting situations like this so they can hopefully be fixed.

edit: This was on hard, not elite.

the devs did say they are going to improve hires because of Champions, but they didn't say anything about protection quests like Ritual or Dust or any of the others. these are the kind of tweaks that the devs really need to deal with on a quest by quest basis.

[phillymiket]

the devs did say they are going to improve hires because of Champions, but they didn't say anything about protection quests like Ritual or Dust or any of the others. these are the kind of tweaks that the devs really need to deal with on a quest by quest basis.

The only problem is the flip-side of the coin.

If you bump up Petreus to deal with spike damage type Champions then Petreaus becomes invulnerable -vs- the times you don't have a pair of super-mystics taking aim.

What they need to do is remove the spike damage and super-HP mobs and tighten the envelope of possible champion power levels.

If we all knew there were champions in any given quest and knew they all would be about <X> times more powerful then a regular mob, but in unpredictable ways, then the devs could set the NCPs properly and the players could plan accordingly.

This whole "the Champ may be a push-over or may be a one-shotter" thing is too wacky for a guy like Petreaus.

[BD_]

the devs did say they are going to improve hires because of Champions, but they didn't say anything about protection quests like Ritual or Dust or any of the others. these are the kind of tweaks that the devs really need to deal with on a quest by quest basis.

I've been saying that for a while now... Fix the bugs and go through on a quest by quest basis - then do the little tweaks about what buff combos shouldn't be allowed, how powerful buffs should be, what spawn rate should be, etc.

[firemedium_jt]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_of_my_teeth

http://www.google.com/#q=serotonin

Sometimes you just cant win. That is life. Learning how to lose and maybe laughing about it because this is a game after all is a good thing. I am sorry if you need this game for a default feel good, but is it really? a challenge then?

When you blow through content for that next serotonin or dopamine gear fix do you really feel like you accomplished something? It has been too much about that and not enough getting through content by the skin of your teeth.

Tired of the predictable.

113 pages are u kidding me. Kill this thread

[Thlargir]

Ritual Sacrifice, Paetus survived with about half hit points (after stoneskin, resists, etc.) after a champion Windlasher mystic, a champion air elemental (from the penultimate encounter), two champion orthons and the boss (from the boss fight) attacked.

Quest succeeded because we were prepared. Plenty skill and gear involved.

edit: This was on elite.

[Livmo]

Tired of the predictable.

Another poster suggested random traps. That sounds great too for more randomness!

[firemedium_jt]

Another poster suggesoted random traps. That sounds great too for more randomness!

Yikes!

Umm?

Do it.

Lets brings it to a crawl agains Precious.

[Taurnish]

Another poster suggested random traps. That sounds great too for more randomness!

I enjoy this game. I don't want to go to another game and don't plan on it. Not everyone can be happy with changes in the game. One change makes some downright ecstatic and makes others feel like they are getting the sand taken out of the sandbox.

I enjoy heroic and epic quests. I like running new quests and figuring them out. Having said that, champions bring a new slant on some old favorite quests of mine in that they become a little challenging. I have enjoyed the addition of champions to the game. I have been surprised by them showing up at just the wrong time to make a run of the mill fight a bit of a challenge. No, i don't think they are game breaking but I also in general don't think they are too tough. I don't play epic elite...i usually play epic hard and heroic elite. I would like to try some epic elite quests but usually I game alone. By the way I think the champions on everything but epic elite (as I don't comment on what I don't play) should be buffed up a little or have more frequent spawns.

One way of rewarding the champion challenge is by loot (which has been implemented via chest drops). Another method of reward for champions could be by XP (which everyone seems to like). How about a reward in XP based upon the number of champions killed in a quest? Thus, if the zergers want to bypass them and the XP then so be it. If the dungeon crawlers and tacticians want the challenge then they are rewarded at the completion of the quest with an XP bonus (similar to the bonuses based upon kill count and trap debilitation). Each champion could give 0.5 or 1% of base quest XP based on hard vs. elite difficulties. So, if 20 champions are killed in an elite quest then a bonus of 20% of base XP of the quest would be rewarded (not game breaking but also not something to laugh at since this is the equivalent to an XP pot). Of course there could be a max % based upon difficulty level.

Also, I like the idea of chest loot for champions. I know some have mentioned dropping tokens or ingredients but I do not wish for the game to add yet another method of barter. I say the random loot in champion quests could drop appropriate named loot for the area (gianthold champions might drop named items from the area).

These are just my thoughts. Not everyone will be happy with whatever the Turbine crew decides but I think both of these ideas could reward both the casual and the power gamer. I consider myself something in between the two.

I vote for random traps. Allow a checkbox at quest entry for standard or random traps (the random gets a bonus XP%).

Thanks Cordo and the rest of the team for new content. I continue to enjoy everything from heroic to epic. The first time I walked into epic gianthold area was great. I am anxiously awaiting the Temple of Elemental Evil and epic shroud.

Thanks for reading
--Lorr on Argo