Monster Champion Feedback

[Gizeh]

[...]

Cleric, rogue, paladin, fighter, barbarian and a monk go into Tomb of the tormented. How do they kill the wargs again? (Or substitute in a ranger maybe?)

umd

So your suggestion is that from now on UMDers bring 20 wands of fireball into the quest? Iirc Last time I ran TotT on my rogue I needed around 60 charges of the two wands of fireball I brought (with full wand and scroll mastery).

[Thlargir]

So your suggestion is that from now on UMDers bring 20 wands of fireball into the quest? Iirc Last time I ran TotT on my rogue I needed around 60 charges of the two wands of fireball I brought (with full wand and scroll mastery).

To each his own, personally, I use Cacophonic Verge.

But as has been pointed out you can use the old fashioned way - lead them away (or kill the Carcass Eaters with rotten flesh) to activate plates or into traps - whichever you prefer.

The point is, a crown does not invalidate any of these approaches. Though your mileage may vary.

[Gizeh]

After reading a lot of the posts in this thread I think one of the problems is the huge gap in difficulty between Hard and Elite. There seem to be quite a few players who were able to run pre-champion Elite, but not champion Elite. However these people will most likely find Hard too easy, even with champions. I'm not saying that Hard should be ramped up, as there are probably also enough players for whom Hard is just the right challenge. Maybe we need a difficulty between the two so that advance their playing skills from Hard to Elite without hitting a wall (or should I say without falling into the gap ).

[Gizeh]

To each his own, personally, I use Cacophonic Verge.

But as has been pointed out you can use the old fashioned way - lead them away (or kill the Carcass Eaters with rotten flesh) to activate plates or into traps - whichever you prefer.

The point is, a crown does not invalidate any of these approaches. Though your mileage may vary.

Still, I thought the point of introducing champions was to add a challenge. How is it challenging to blast a huge bag of hit points that has no chance to hit back? All that champion rats/worgs in the maze do is make the quest longer and more boring - unless you count the challenge of not falling asleep while you blast away at champion maze dwellers.

[Thlargir]

Still, I thought the point of introducing champions was to add a challenge. How is it challenging to blast a huge bag of hit points that has no chance to hit back? All that champion rats/worgs in the maze do is make the quest longer and more boring - unless you count the challenge of not falling asleep while you blast away at champion maze dwellers.

The original point was that a global mechanic had unforeseen consequences that broke the game.

I conceded the unforeseen consequences portion but rebutted the "broke" claim.

Glad to see that you have come around.

[Keladon]

The original point was that a global mechanic had unforeseen consequences that broke the game.

I conceded the unforeseen consequences portion but rebutted the "broke" claim.

Glad to see that you have come around.

Ok, now tell me where it says "champions broke the game".

It's an unfinished/broken feature, yes, but who said they broke the game? I probably missed that so I would be grateful if you could show me the post where someone says that.

[Scrabbler]

Ok, now tell me where it says "champions broke the game".

It's an unfinished/broken feature, yes, but who said they broke the game? I probably missed that so I would be grateful if you could show me the post where someone says that.

You said it yourself, more than 4 times.

And you're right: it does break the game in some situations. Some people might not believe that, because they're using an incorrectly-strict definition of what "broken" means. Places like Madstone, Tormented, and even Durks have been broken by the champ system; the possibility of workarounds or limping through doesn't mean it's not broken. Consider it like a car: just because it's still technically drivable doesn't mean it hasn't been really messed up.

[Keladon]

You said it yourself, more than 4 times.

And you're right: it does break the game in some situations. Some people might not believe that, because they're using an incorrectly-strict definition of what "broken" means. Places like Madstone, Tormented, and even Durks have been broken by the champ system; the possibility of workarounds or limping through doesn't mean it's not broken. Consider it like a car: just because it's still technically drivable doesn't mean it hasn't been really messed up.

I said it's a broken feature. But thank you for putting words in my mouth.

They break certain quests, which is why it's a broken feature, I never said they broke the game.

If you're going to introduce a new game-wide feature, you'd better think it through.. they didn't.

[Sehenry03]

You said it yourself, more than 4 times.

And you're right: it does break the game in some situations. Some people might not believe that, because they're using an incorrectly-strict definition of what "broken" means. Places like Madstone, Tormented, and even Durks have been broken by the champ system; the possibility of workarounds or limping through doesn't mean it's not broken. Consider it like a car: just because it's still technically drivable doesn't mean it hasn't been really messed up.

Ok now careful when you say these quests are broken. I have not failed ONE of the quests you listed yes and I have ran Madstone and Durks multiple times. Just because something CAN go wrong does not mean it will. I have always said they should fix protection missions asap but so far I have had ZERO issues with Madstone or Durks. And I'm not sure where Durks would even be affected more then any other quest?

[Scrabbler]

Ok now careful when you say these quests are broken. I have not failed ONE of the quests you listed

As explained inside the text you just quoted, just because you managed to complete a quest (either by a workaround, being overpowered, or being lucky with champ spawns) doesn't mean a quest encounter isn't broken.

[doucefeuille]

This.
"Elite mode is designed for a party and greatly increases the difficulty of a quest" That's what it says ingame.
How does that mean new players shouldn't play on elite? Where does it say that? Because that's what people in favor of champions are claiming, that new players should only play on normal.

It has always been like that, the difference is that people keep gathering past lives and start TR'ing and now they want the difficulty to match the strength of their current character.
Elite is still challenging for a party of new players, the difficulty is greatly increased for them compared to normal & hard.

edit: "was challenging", ever since the introduction of champions it's leaning more towards impossible.

Exactly this.

Why is Turbine altering low level content to be challenging to multi-TR players? What are the hoping to achieve?

It's already hard enough finding other new people to play with. The Champion update is killing off what little new player base this game has.

that exactly what I said, the game have changed mostly for multi-TRs, the game beacame too easy just for them.

Heroic Elite must still be for new toons good party/players
If multi-TRs Toons need more challenge and surprise, then they need a NEW difficulty level or/and an end-game

There is no-sense to break the game for new toons instead of making a good game for multi-TRs toons

The new toons/players have not changed, it still the same low level class without stuff and few AP, and an old game need to be easier at the first stage to attract new players, so yes it's a little bit easy for a new toon than 8 years ago, but HE was still challenging for them before champ and champion are TOO MUCH even in hard.
Elite was designed for toons without TRs, there is still toons without TRs in game!
Elite was not design for powered toons but also for good players even with a new toons, be one-shoot never happen in a quest even in elite except for a 8const wizard who go alone close the boss, in raid ok but not in a quest.
At this time they do not have challenge anymore and they loose the capability to gain favor for bags/bank/32pts etc. Just having the choice of "normal" is silly, Who are so masochist to play a game in which he cannot gain advantage? who want to have VIP account which can open quest in elite, if he cannot play in elite?

Champion can be rough and surprising, so vets who know well quest are happy, powered toons too.
champions have their place for multi-TRs but not for new toons.
And new toons losse the capacity to play an interesting game without an elite design for them like the elite-pre-champ was, they loose the capacity to gain favor abnd every advantage it give.

[Enoach]

Personally I think Turbine should continue with the original basis of quest design

Quests should be based on a party of 4.
This does not mean that you have to have 4 characters to be able to complete, but it means that the CR ratings of encounters should be based off the premise that the resources of 4 players will be present and that utilizing 20% to 25% of those ability resources per mundane encounter (by resources I'm referring to boosts, Spell points and other special abilities). Boss fights and special encounters may very on resources needed

The gap between Normal and Hard and Elite should be the same. I totally agree MOAR HP is not always the right answer in making something more challenging. This is why my issue with Champions at the beginning was simply that there appeared to be such a spawn rate that the non-champion appeared to be rare. Having one or two very dangerous monsters (again not because of HP) is good, especially if what makes them more dangerous is a special ability such as a Great Cleave with knockdown or DCs on spells like hold/charm or something that incapacitates a player. Again all of these can be worked around.

I remember my first year in DDO in '06 to '07 where at lower levels a Masterwork weapon was considered good weapon and wolves/dogs could chain trip you even if they could not hit you.

[Faltout]

To each his own, personally, I use Cacophonic Verge.

But as has been pointed out you can use the old fashioned way - lead them away (or kill the Carcass Eaters with rotten flesh) to activate plates or into traps - whichever you prefer.

The point is, a crown does not invalidate any of these approaches. Though your mileage may vary.

To all your posts on that subject: Sonic, fire etc. should indeed be able to go through that grid in real life. However, this grid is considered a wall for the game and spells working through walls is not an intended mechanism. In real life or DnD though, note that the sonic/fire blast would also hurt the characters in range. I'm saying this stuff because in your first post, you're implying that killing the wolves/carcass eaters is the norm and everyone should do it. And by the way, lately hitting the wolves makes them teleport/jump around the whole maze and you're not able to tell where they are let alone hit them. However the will stop to kill your rat.

On the subject of avoiding that champion though, it's true that you can avoid any battles with the rat using extreme player skill. The wolves cannot be guided using meat as said in another post. The carcass eaters however can (carefully though, they may get bugged). The first maze is really easy. In the second maze, there are 2 wolves. 1 is a non-issue as the rat should never go near. the second one is right on the path of the rat. However, using the carcass eaters you can move the rat fast enough and through the door to avoid the 2nd wolf.

Bottom line, killing wolves/carcass eaters makes the quest longer if the guide is skilled enough to use them. I always tell people to not hurt anything because then they bug and are impossible to use.

And on the topic of champions, the reason that the rat is able to defeat the wolves is because devs have put a mechanism to finally beat this quest with brute force since it's a part of a chain (not like Crucible). Champions invalidate that mechanism and that's what we're concentrating on when saying this is an example of things going wrong with champions.

[Sehenry03]

As explained inside the text you just quoted, just because you managed to complete a quest (either by a workaround, being overpowered, or being lucky with champ spawns) doesn't mean a quest encounter isn't broken.

No you want to take what I say out of context...Madstone and Durks are not in ANY way broken. Madstone is harder now because you have to keep the seer alive and you might have champions attacking him but it isn't broken. Again I have not failed either of those quests. The necro quest on the other hand yes that one could be broken depending on spawns but again...my guildy can still do it with JUST the meat and NO damage to any of the mobs below even with champs down there.

[Sam1313]

Apologies, but I revoke my invitation to help.

Best of luck to you.

Its all good, I didn't really think it was genuine anyways. I feel that 98% of the people that are on these forums says things to make themselves look good to others. At least I know that when I say something in the forum, in guild, online, I also mean it in real life.

[Keladon]

No you want to take what I say out of context...Madstone and Durks are not in ANY way broken. Madstone is harder now because you have to keep the seer alive and you might have champions attacking him but it isn't broken. Again I have not failed either of those quests. The necro quest on the other hand yes that one could be broken depending on spawns but again...my guildy can still do it with JUST the meat and NO damage to any of the mobs below even with champs down there.

"You can still do it", isn't a good argument, there's already been quite a discussion about that.

Ofcourse you can still do those quests, if you're lucky with champions.
And yes, the maze can still be done with champion wargs, but it just takes a lot longer than was originally intended.

You can still do most things with champions around, but some things have become incredibly frustrating.
Same for the "I have not failed those quests". I believe you, but that's what you get with a 100% random feature, the next person could fail that quest 3 times in a row because of champions, you just don't know because it's random.

I see people who like this randomness, I find it frustrating, I shouldn't fail because I'm unlucky, I should fail because I'm undergeared, underleved, not skilled enough,...
I used to be able to select "Elite" and I would know what I could expect, now I select "Elite" and it's somewhere between what it used to be and impossible - depends on your luck.

[Sehenry03]

"You can still do it", isn't a good argument, there's already been quite a discussion about that.

Ofcourse you can still do those quests, if you're lucky with champions.
And yes, the maze can still be done with champion wargs, but it just takes a lot longer than was originally intended.

You can still do most things with champions around, but some things have become incredibly frustrating.
Same for the "I have not failed those quests". I believe you, but that's what you get with a 100% random feature, the next person could fail that quest 3 times in a row because of champions, you just don't know because it's random.

I see people who like this randomness, I find it frustrating, I shouldn't fail because I'm unlucky, I should fail because I'm undergeared, underleved, not skilled enough,...
I used to be able to select "Elite" and I would know what I could expect, now I select "Elite" and it's somewhere between what it used to be and impossible - depends on your luck.

You don't fail because you are unlucky. You fail because you don't deal with the champions properly. I have had ONE seer restart ONE time because someone tried to just invis him and it didn't work so guess what? We killed the champion. ONE seer dying out of 3...and on 5 different runs. So lets average that to ONE seer out of 15 that had to restart. I'm sorry you can't do this but don't compare the Necro quests (which IS broken I already said) because it works JUST fine.

But again...where in Durks secret do champions stop you from succeeding???

[Qhualor]

"You can still do it", isn't a good argument, there's already been quite a discussion about that.

Ofcourse you can still do those quests, if you're lucky with champions.
And yes, the maze can still be done with champion wargs, but it just takes a lot longer than was originally intended.

You can still do most things with champions around, but some things have become incredibly frustrating.
Same for the "I have not failed those quests". I believe you, but that's what you get with a 100% random feature, the next person could fail that quest 3 times in a row because of champions, you just don't know because it's random.

I see people who like this randomness, I find it frustrating, I shouldn't fail because I'm unlucky, I should fail because I'm undergeared, underleved, not skilled enough,...
I used to be able to select "Elite" and I would know what I could expect, now I select "Elite" and it's somewhere between what it used to be and impossible - depends on your luck.

before questioning the Champions in quests, I would first question how the player(s) are running the quests. the game is typically fast paced and dive into mobs head first. if that's the style of play that is getting players killed or having problems with Champions than it means the players need to adjust their tactics. with the spawn rate the way it is now, I haven't yet seen more than 3 Champions in a mob fight. players just need to adjust their strategy to better handle Champions, but since the spawn reduction I haven't really seen hardly any slow down or adjustments in groups.

[Keladon]

You don't fail because you are unlucky. You fail because you don't deal with the champions properly. I have had ONE seer restart ONE time because someone tried to just invis him and it didn't work so guess what? We killed the champion. ONE seer dying out of 3...and on 5 different runs. So lets average that to ONE seer out of 15 that had to restart. I'm sorry you can't do this but don't compare the Necro quests (which IS broken I already said) because it works JUST fine.

But again...where in Durks secret do champions stop you from succeeding???

Where did I say that?
Also I said that person could fail that quest because of champions, I didn't even mention the seers.
Please read my post thoroughly before making comments like that.

before questioning the Champions in quests, I would first question how the player(s) are running the quests. the game is typically fast paced and dive into mobs head first. if that's the style of play that is getting players killed or having problems with Champions than it means the players need to adjust their tactics.

It is not.

[doucefeuille]

you make a confusion between tactical difficulty and intrinsic power of carracters.

Yes it's unlucky to fail against a champion when you play a new toons. It's not about tactict and play-style, it's just about ubber-gear and TRs.

When you fail against a random champion which randomly can deal 100+damage at lvl 5, there is no adjust tactic for a new toon. CC can fail, even if they are maxed by lvl AP, PRR cannot be huge when you have no past-life and the gear with. and a One-shoot is still a one-shot, it's not possible to avoid it, it's just a question of luck = you faced the champion who have the worst buff for you.

Without champion there was no level diffuclty for multi-TRs/Gears
With champions there is no level difficulty for new toons, casuals, permadeath-like etc.
The only ansear you had for them is : go to play in normal.

But Elite was not designed for multi-TRs,
it was designed for toons with the gear that actually can be loot in quest at that level, for toons with ability they can reach at that level etc.

Actually multi-TRs needed more challenge, ok, turbine give the champs to them.
But the middle players, the skilled players without TRs have no place because turbine has taken away the content for them.

the discussion would not be pro/con CM
Nobody ask to remove totaly the champ, they just ask a balance of the game for their level.
Champ are just an answer for multi-TRs, the other players need their game too.