Monster Champion Feedback

[Enoach]

Cleric, rogue, paladin, fighter, barbarian and a monk go into Tomb of the tormented. How do they kill the wargs again? (Or substitute in a ranger maybe?)

umd

Or the same way we done in the past, use the meat to lead them away and if possible into traps. The rats are not the only ones that are hungry. Hint you can even use them to do the pads.

[Sehenry03]

Or the same way we done in the past, use the meat to lead them away and if possible into traps. The rats are not the only ones that are hungry. Hint you can even use them to do the pads.

This!!

I HATE this quest and I will ONLY run this quest if a certain guildy is doing it because he can do the meat/trap so well to clear a path for the rat.

[phillymiket]

So how many actually talk to new players about this stuff? I see a lot of people keep saying the new players hate it but the ones I have grouped with could care less.

Please be HONEST with your answer to plz.

Fair question.

Honestly, I'm mostly imagining myself playing the content as a new person, I don't group until about lv 7 or 8. Never have really. I just want speedy speed speed before lv 9 or so.

I said as much about 70 pages ago, feel free to look it up (good luck) ;-)

After lv 7 I haven't played with Champs (I was, i think lv 12 when they were intrduced? then I capped and TRed and I am back at lv 5)

So my actual experience is lv 12+ in PuGs.

I have been asking people. Some people liked 'em some people don't.

[Keladon]

So how many actually talk to new players about this stuff? I see a lot of people keep saying the new players hate it but the ones I have grouped with could care less.

Please be HONEST with your answer to plz.

Most have no idea what those monsters with crowns on them are and start asking questions about them when they get killed by them.
Reaction is pretty much negative when you tell them they're 100% random in spawn location, amount & strength.

But we just tell them to run normal, so it doesn't really matter wat new players think about them, right?

And if normal is too easy and they don't like champions, they can just look for another game.

[doucefeuille]

Heroic Elite was not tailored for good party/players with multi-TRs toons
Heroic Elite was tailored for good party/players with new toons

There is still new toons, there is still good party/players with new toons
and with champ they cannot have any challenge nor advance well in favor

Heroic Elite must still be for new toons good party/players
If multi-TRs Toons need more challenge and surprise, then they need a NEW difficulty level or/and an end-game

There is no-sense to break the game for new toons instead of making a good game for multi-TRs toons

[Ayseifn]

One thing I saw that was kinda funny was in Elite Collaborator (Korthos bar quest) I'm low level swinging a starter rapier (I don't twink at low levels) and a champion had the damage reduction of damage type piercing so that if I didn't have 3 monk PLs and 3 Enchant weapons PLs I would have done zero damage to it.

of course it wasn't an issue for me as I had the PLS, or I could have pulled out a different weapon type.

But would a new player have been completely stuck by this?

Yeah, there's that tired old (and incorrect) argument that "new players don't run elite" but still, this is spillover from trying to add challenge at higher levels that has the potential to break lower levels.

Just something for the devs to chew on.

New players would have done Heyton's Rest before that where they're taught about blunt/slash DR, so should be fine.

[MisterCanoeHead]

Ok so a question to everyone posting here...and I mean this with no sarcasm...

How many of you have actually played with new players in the last week?

**snip**

So how many actually talk to new players about this stuff? I see a lot of people keep saying the new players hate it but the ones I have grouped with could care less.

Please be HONEST with your answer to plz.

Some new players don't like to be rushed through content by a Vet and prefer to group with other new players. I for one can say that myself and my two other friends who are relatively new found the difficulty before the update to be challenging and enjoyable on elite, the champions have simply made it frustrating and frankly not worth playing.

Having our group wiped by a 300 HP kobold shaman in the Ringleader quest resulted in all of us logging out. Not fun.

As I said. If long time players want a big ramp in difficulty in low level quests Turbine should have created a TR only option that they could stuff full of Champions. Otherwise, unless you have a TR in your group running the quest for the 347th time on his 32nd life, it sucks.

[Keladon]

Heroic Elite was not tailored for good party/players with multi-TRs toons
Heroic Elite was tailored for good party/players with new toons

This.

"Elite mode is designed for a party and greatly increases the difficulty of a quest" That's what it says ingame.
How does that mean new players shouldn't play on elite? Where does it say that? Because that's what people in favor of champions are claiming, that new players should only play on normal.

It has always been like that, the difference is that people keep gathering past lives and start TR'ing and now they want the difficulty to match the strength of their current character.
Elite is still challenging for a party of new players, the difficulty is greatly increased for them compared to normal & hard.

edit: "was challenging", ever since the introduction of champions it's leaning more towards impossible.

[Inoukchuk]

Hope you don't take offense to this, but I said I run everything else fine solo on Elite. Some quests I come back for later when it seems I can't quite punch it, yet, and I have no problem at all with difficulty. I have a problem with getting a purely random kick in the nuts. Next run that goblin shaman isn't a champion and I breeze through. So, basically, except for the purely random chance of encountering some completely out-of-sync-with-the-rest-of-the-quest champion, I'm DEALING with Elite. Solo. As a new player. That, in itself, may be a problem. Maybe Elite truly has become too easy. This is not the way to solve that problem, though.All it does is introduce a *TOTALLY* random gear/hp check.

To be honest, I agree with your sentiment that probably a much better way to go about it would have been a fourth difficulty where each and every mob were a champion. As an experienced and bored gamer, I can imagine I'd find that fun to tackle, and something to TR over and over for, to squeeze that last bit of power out of my main character (which already sounds more appealing than just creating several different characters).

If you put in mobs like this, don't make them hard by giving them one-shot damage and loads of hp. Make them hard by giving them loads of hp, and maybe even one-shot-damage, but with a gameplay mechanic a player can exploit to dodge it. Or fail it and die. Let players become more skilled, instead of requiring 17 past lives and +6 tomes to all stats as well as top crafter bind on account hand-me-down gear that doubles your hp from 90 to 180 so a 120 hp hit isn't an instant death.

Edit: For example, say said goblin shaman has 2 spells available (just to keep it simple). One is an instant/short cast area spell dealing a moderate amount of damage to everybody around him. The other deals 100-150 damage, but has a three second charge-up. In this case, as soon as he begins charging up his "death lightning bolt of hero slaying", players can run for cover, and come back to fight when that charge has been spent.

What I'm saying is...why not introduce some interesting mechanics instead of just brute force?


Edit 2: btw. I'm a premium player on my first life, so I already "work my way up" to Elite through normal and hard for each quest. It's not like I sub, open everything up on Elite and expect loot to fall from the sky.

Speaking only for myself:

This is an RPG... I don't want it to truly turn into a FPS by grossly rewarding FPS skills in favor of character building skills. Your character's ability to avoid damage should be determined by your character's stats, not your +90% dodge bonus from being a superior FPS player.

I'm fine with having to develop tactics, including group tactics, to deal with more difficult encounters. I would love it if they improved the AI to be more deadly with the abilities the NPCs already posses (though I know that is probably well beyond budget for the man-hours it would take). I'm okay with more creative encounters that require more creative solutions that are difficult to implement. But please don't turn this (more than it already is) into an FPS.

[MisterCanoeHead]

This.

"Elite mode is designed for a party and greatly increases the difficulty of a quest" That's what it says ingame.
How does that mean new players shouldn't play on elite? Where does it say that? Because that's what people in favor of champions are claiming, that new players should only play on normal.

It has always been like that, the difference is that people keep gathering past lives and start TR'ing and now they want the difficulty to match the strength of their current character.
Elite is still challenging for a party of new players, the difficulty is greatly increased for them compared to normal & hard.

Exactly this.

Why is Turbine altering low level content to be challenging to multi-TR players? What are the hoping to achieve?

It's already hard enough finding other new people to play with. The Champion update is killing off what little new player base this game has.

[count_spicoli]

If you and your 5 really awesome friends find the Korthos and Harbor quests too easy why aren't you playing epic levels? Do you like showing off to new players? Do you just like complaining about how awesome you are?

I still don't understand why so many "elite" players in this game are demanding that the low level quests be made harder for their epic toons.

Go play epic if you're awesome. Laughing at new players and calling them "noobs" while bragging about how you can run through elite Korthos is about as lame as it gets.

How do I play canning crystal or swiped signet or the captives or dreams of insanity or the enemy within or haunted library or storm cleave outpost or stormavaulds mine on epic elite. Get the picture or should I keep going.

There are quests at all levels I enjoy because they are fun. The day update 24 hit I did battle for eveningstar ee then the swiped signet elite. Both were a blast. I hadn't had that much fun in quests in a year. 3 person party wiped in swiped signet 3 times trying to do our normal zerg before we slowed down worked together and got thru it. I'll remember that a lot longer than I will the 1000 zerg I've had thru it.

[Sehenry03]

Some new players don't like to be rushed through content by a Vet and prefer to group with other new players. I for one can say that myself and my two other friends who are relatively new found the difficulty before the update to be challenging and enjoyable on elite, the champions have simply made it frustrating and frankly not worth playing.

Having our group wiped by a 300 HP kobold shaman in the Ringleader quest resulted in all of us logging out. Not fun.

As I said. If long time players want a big ramp in difficulty in low level quests Turbine should have created a TR only option that they could stuff full of Champions. Otherwise, unless you have a TR in your group running the quest for the 347th time on his 32nd life, it sucks.

I get that a lot of people wouldn't want to be rushed through and that's why I told them I move along pretty fast as a warning.

My point is...and I know not all feel this way...it is ONLY the vet's I have talked to that have isues with champions. Really new players don't know a difference and they don't mind running normal since they are new. In fact as I stated above a couple of them told me they just ran quests on normal while soloing. Here's the thing though...100% of the players I have grouped with in the last week or so since the update that have complained about champions have been VET's. Zero newish players including those who were here before champions cared. Almost all the newish players were running normal while solo and hard/elite when grouped and while in a group they had no issues with champions.

And just so everyone knows...I have been 1 shotted as much as the new players with my TR and "uber" gear which is to say...since the nerf to champions...maybe 3 times. I have died a few times mainly from not paying attention. The new players were simply surprised when they got killed and wanted to know if they should release which I told them to wait and we got them rezzed. We moved on. People would apologize after dying (guessing from a previous experience where someone got mad?) and I told them I don't care as long as you aren't piking when you die. Hell I can't complain about them dying if I am also lol.

I guess what I am trying to say is that the vet's have the issue with them not so much the new players. I understand that the vet's want new players to enjoy the game and don't want it to be to hard but its not. All the new players arte fine with running normal while soloing and doing harder content when grouped...at least the ones I have talked to.

[MisterCanoeHead]

How do I play canning crystal or swiped signet or the captives or dreams of insanity or the enemy within or haunted library or storm cleave outpost or stormavaulds mine on epic elite. Get the picture or should I keep going.

There are quests at all levels I enjoy because they are fun. The day update 24 hit I did battle for eveningstar ee then the swiped signet elite. Both were a blast. I hadn't had that much fun in quests in a year. 3 person party wiped in swiped signet 3 times trying to do our normal zerg before we slowed down worked together and got thru it. I'll remember that a lot longer than I will the 1000 zerg I've had thru it.

I honestly don't know what you're going on about...

You like playing low level quests but you don't like them?

What?

You want low level content to be challenging for your uber character?

Before you were so awesome, did the game have random Champions in it? Or did you play the low level quests on elite with other new players, like it was intended to be played?

Go play epics if heroics are so boring.

[Enoach]

I disagree.
It's not the 'stigma' of running Normal that is the issue.
It's that, with little exception, Vets post LFMs, new people join LFMs.
Therefore, modifying new players experience won't change LFMs one little bit.
You have to make Vets want to run Normal, which won't happen because of rewards.
Result: New person has a limited or potentially negative experience.
A game wants new people to have a broad and positive experience, that is, if you have sense, both of survival and common.


It was a quick-fix that traded a temporary solution for a lack of content, a problem that would solve it self in time, in exchange for hopelessly skewing the LFMs toward Elite and shooting themselves in the foot by making it unnecissary to buy many of the pack to be able to cap.

I disagree.
The players did what any reasonable person would expect them to do - run the one that gives the super huge bonus! :-D
What should players have done instead?

I guess we can agree there.
But I just think it's foolish to stake your business on a change that has never happened, shows no sign of happening, has no real reason for happening.
But we can hope.

However, there is nothing stopping new players from forming their own LFMs and running on the difficulty where they would have the most fun.

The trick is not in changing how VETs do LFMs, the trick is in giving non-VETs incentives to post their own LFMs

We will have to disagree on it being reasonable or social pressure (You will note I fall on the social pressure side as I truly believe that the only person that can change someone's mind is themselves)

[Sehenry03]

However, there is nothing stopping new players from forming their own LFMs and running on the difficulty where they would have the most fun.

The trick is not in changing how VETs do LFMs, the trick is in giving non-VETs incentives to post their own LFMs

We will have to disagree on it being reasonable or social pressure (You will note I fall on the social pressure side as I truly believe that the only person that can change someone's mind is themselves)

I am all for champions but the only issue with your idea is that I would think MOST new players are a bit hesitant to form an LFM not really knowing whats happening. I am guessing most would rely on finding one already up. This is why I always have an LFM up while leveling and why I keep telling them I don't care if they die just don't release.

[Sehenry03]

I think most of our issues are vet's who are to impatient to help new players. Yesterday was a really nice group...I had Stormpebble with me in the group who was a TR and an obvious vet and he was great in helping the newer players...however I have had multiple vet's getting impatient and ditching new players when they die or getting upset to lose the 10% bonus for not dying...these people need to take a long look at themselves.

I really think that most new players could care less about champions...we simply need more Veterans to help them get going. Talk more in general chat and ask if anyone wants to group. Yes we all know most vet's can solo just fine and that's not the point...the point is take a few minutes to help others learn to do it. yes it might slow your TRing a bit but if you can get even ONE person to enjoy the game that is new you have come a long ways at getting that player to stay as a ViP.

[count_spicoli]

I honestly don't know what you're going on about...

You like playing low level quests but you don't like them?

What?

You want low level content to be challenging for your uber character?

Before you were so awesome, did the game have random Champions in it? Or did you play the low level quests on elite with other new players, like it was intended to be played?

Go play epics if heroics are so boring.

When I first started playing there was no bb. You would see as many norm or hard lfms as elite. So it was a little different. But I got my ass handed to me on elite a lot and would go learn the quest on normal then maybe join an elite in a group and hope they carried me. I never ever ever never tried to solo elite for at least a year and maybe my 3rd or 4th life. And that was playing an extreme amount over that year or more.

By the way low level content has 4 settings just like high level. Epic isn't really epic in this game. It's just life past 20.

[BD_]

True, however, you ignore:

1) Un-nuked Forum threads with the info,
2) the wiki which has info, and
3) the obvious reality of sound (and other effects) not being blocked by an open mesh grating.

1 & 2. Many newer players don't use the forums or the wiki (and they shouldn't have to), for some it's because they don't know about them, and for others it's because they prefer to experience and learn quests on their own the first time.

3- but you can't shoot arrows etc. through which makes no sense whatsoever... Yet certain, and not all, aoe effects go through the wall... for anyone who has not used the wiki or the forums find this out (or been told in game) - it would be perfectly logical for them to try shooting and/or maybe try one area spell and when those fail assume that it is impossible to attack through the "floor".

[BD_]

Clearly, if this happens at all, then it is a bug.



Perhaps they see this as a problem?



Any change is going to provoke rage quit threats, always has, always will.



If you are not equipped for a quest on elite, you should not be running that quest on elite.



Though true I would hazard that for the great majority of folks in this category they do not even get to see a champion. Heck, they cannot even open hard/elite!



Only time will tell as to whether these changes open up the spread of LFMs, but as you identify, they are thinking about it. As to whether the game is unbalanced I suppose that depends on what you think balance is...

And it does happen - along with numerous other bugs - which is one of, if not the biggest problem with champions right now and why they belong on Lama and not on live.

Note that I said they belong on Lama, not that I said they should be eliminated and never should have been made...

[phillymiket]

However, there is nothing stopping new players from forming their own LFMs and running on the difficulty where they would have the most fun.

The trick is not in changing how VETs do LFMs, the trick is in giving non-VETs incentives to post their own LFMs

We will have to disagree on it being reasonable or social pressure (You will note I fall on the social pressure side as I truly believe that the only person that can change someone's mind is themselves)

Getting new players to post LFMs would be the trick, I guess.

Myself, I don't create parties in a new game for a good while.

Maybe I'm different.

I'll solo to start. Then I'll join a group after a bit.

Only after I've run a quest a bunch do I feel bold enough start a group for that quest.

Last game i started and spent any time with was NWO. I ran a good two toons up to cap before I started being the "party leader" type and posting LFM in chat for each zone rather than just waiting for someone else.

So no, nothing stopping new players, except human nature.