Monster Champion Feedback

[HAL]

2. Instead of random junk chests, let them give out champion tokens. Something stackable you can trade in at an NPC for useful items. (10 tokens for a potion of deathward, 100 tokens for a major mnemonic, 1000 tokens for a +2 tome, 10000 for a +5 tome, etc)

You seem to be the only person who had this problem.

[Braegan]

Maybe they are "bosses" because of their blue blood, people skills or charming personality instead of combat prowess ?.
Nothing wrong that trash mob that fights and kills adventurers every day shouldn't be better

Truth.

The "Boss" is not always the best at what they do (somewhere I can refer RL work into this )

Sometimes it's just the guy with enough plat to buy the help of local toughs.

[nateusmaximus]

Personally I don't see a random dice roll picking a player at random and basically saying "You get to die this time" as being either fun or a challenge.

To me getting one-shotted should only ever happen in Raids and should come with a very clear tell so that people can move out of the way and even then should be rare, rather than a norm.

THIS. This exactly. I ran all the new content today and repeatedly got 1 shotted. For some context, I was running on a Pale Master with 91 prr (so almost 50% damage reduction) and over 1000hp. The champ damage would regularly be in excess of 1k, and was in the multiple thousands on at least three occasions. The most absurd was in Terminal Delirium where I got hit for 4,574 in slash damage from a yellow-name gargoyle... a yellow-named gargoyle.... I realize Terminal Delirium is an extreme challenge, but that's not extremely challenging, it's just stupid, and getting hit for 2k+ in some of the other quests is equally stupid. I totally agree that you should have to play well, have an exceptionally good build, and probably have multiple past lives to play in EE; however, if you have all that you SHOULD be able to play in EE without the game simply saying, "you die now!" Given my stats, those several hits that hit me for 2k+ would have to have ranged from 4k+ to 9k+ in their original damage. I don't care how uber you are, you won't survive those hits. So, as stated before, this basically just introduces a mechanic that occasionally randomly kills you no matter what your stats, skill, or past-life choices. That is dumb game design and won't be conducive to attracting or maintaining a player base.

I'm not really all that worried about this since I'm 99% sure the champs will get nerfed (both in terms of spawn rate and in power) in a subsequent patch or update. Turbine just spent a lot of time and thought on buffing melee builds, and the champs will effectively render melee toons second-class citizens again. Think about it, you can take into your group (or build for yourself) a Monkcher who stays out of range of the champs 95% of the time and does very good DPS, or you can take/build a spiffy new melee pally who does GREAT DPS... but has the unfortunate need to get up close to the champs to kill them, and who will be dying several times in every run because of that. No contest. Monkchers, arti-splashed builds, shiradi casters - all the usual suspects and so-called "flavor of the month" builds will be back in force.

I realize some people are loving this, and fondly recalling the "good old" epic days. I enjoyed those epics too, and one of the things I liked most was how a well formed group of very good players worked together like a well oiled machine. If you had the right team, you could take a very very challenging quest and systematically take it apart. It rewarded skill, past-lives, knowing your role, and working together. The champs do little to none of that despite the superficial similarity to the old epic days.

Don't get me wrong, some elements of the champ concept are great, but please stop the nonsense of 1k+ 1 shot kills.

Also, as a DC caster, having many of the champs spawn with perma-deathblock is also kinda dumb. Again, it harkens back to the old "epic ward" days when DC casters were only for CC, but these aren't those days. Suddenly having yellow-named mobs who didn't cast deathward be immune to your spells is very annoying. I'm not asking to be able to FoD all orange or any red-named bosses, I'm not asking for yellow-named mob clerics not to be able to DW themselves or their allies, but yellow mobs spawning with perma-deathblock!? Really!?

[Impaqt]

So after killing 73 Champions in this quest up to this point. NO CHESTS! And now my own death AFTER BEING ONE SHOTTED that has costed me -10% to my xp.
THIS IS BS FIX IT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!

hard to tell, but that looks like the Beholder area of Von3.

73 Champions would mean about an ~75% spawn rate as there are just over 100 mobs from the beginning to that quest.

Perhaps you exaggerate a bit?

and since there are no mini bosses in Von3 (all the named are Red, Not orange) there would not be any chests.

[Braegan]

So after killing 73 Champions in this quest up to this point. NO CHESTS! And now my own death AFTER BEING ONE SHOTTED that has costed me -10% to my xp.
THIS IS BS FIX IT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!

That's more exclamations than a Fran post! (I kid Fran!)

For reals tho, what Difficulty were you on? What was it that hit you?

In general tho, everyone needs to relax just a bit. Various game changes were implemented in the past and folks raised the pitchforks and a few weeks later it was business as usual. Anyone else remember shroud blades, flenser polar rays, -con spam in GoP, etc etc.

Just sit back and relax, this will all soon be but a happy memory.

[Zzevel]

How about something that would effect you personally...

Player power way over-powered. i hope we can agree there.

How would you feel if you logged in tomorrow and all your gear got nerfed along with PRR and twists and destinies etc.

Every time they change a class, a race, a skill, enhancements, destinies... 2WF, classes.. etc.. I have been affected, EVERYONE has been affected personally. You roll with the punches and adapt to the new methods or you move along. The Sky is falling around here at LEAST once a year, you have been here long enough to see it. You know the initial wave of panic sets in and torches are grabbed, but in the end people will adjust and come out stronger/better/wiser.

You are correct the players are stronger than the used to be, that's what happens when you add epic levels to a system not designed for them (and yes there was power creep on top of it). This is just one step toward making the game appeal to MORE people... It is challenging for those looking for a challenge while leaving it easy for other that need that avenue.

I'm not saying getting one shotted is cool, or too many are spawning. Minor adjustments should always be made in any new system, i'm just saying - Dont just blindly give into anyone that wants to turn it off because they want to run hard and elite quests as the NORMAL EASY.

[Albinosaurus]

That's more exclamations than a Fran post! (I kid Fran!)

For reals tho, what Difficulty were you on? What was it that hit you?

In general tho, everyone needs to relax just a bit. Various game changes were implemented in the past and folks raised the pitchforks and a few weeks later it was business as usual. Anyone else remember shroud blades, flenser polar rays, -con spam in GoP, etc etc.

Just sit back and relax, this will all soon be but a happy memory.

If by happy memory, you mean they undo this nonsense, that would please me greatly. If you mean that they aren't going to do anything about it, I will probably cancel my VIP and end up taking another year or two off, come back once in awhile to see if they fixed it, and stay away if they haven't. And I'm sure that's what this game needs anyway--MORE reasons for people to quit and diminish the player base even more.

In the mean time, this is just asking for everyone to run pure Enchanters since they are the only ones who can deal with this in any reasonable manner (charm/hold everything).

[Rocke]

I rarely ever post in these forums, but for what its worth, I wanted to add my thoughts to this discussion....

I've played this game steadily since almost the very start and seen many, many changes over the years and seen a LOT of people come and go. One thing that has been consistent for me over that time is that it has been a lot of fun. I've enjoyed DDO more than any other of the great number of games I have played in 30+ years of video gaming.

I usually go my own path and play my own way, and not always do what others necessarily think you should do. For me, this is what is fun. Trying new characters - and keeping them to play again later rather than doing endless Completionist past lives (I've seen WAY TOO MUCH Completionist burn-out). I do play DDO a lot. More than I probably should, but I'm not a 1%-type uber powergamer. I'm more of a mid-level power player who does some EE quests, but not frequently. I do a lot of solo-ing and PUG-ging.

At a most basic level, every game is the same in one regard: If its fun, then people will usually continue to play. If someone no longer finds it fun to play, then they will move along to something else. No one HAS to play DDO or any other game. They have a choice. They can simply not log in and do something else with their time. So a game has to fun for the majority of players or else it .... goes away; like Star Wars Galaxies did.

I generally like the idea of random champions added to the game. However, I'm not sure if the current implementation will be appropriate/fun for most players. To test things out for myself, I played a number of different quests and different levels; Heroic and Epic. What I found out is that the brief comment in the U24 Release Notes about the addition of Champions GREATLY underestimates the actual reality of what I have seen. Not just in EE either.

1. Some of the random champions are indeed basically "speed bumps" as someone else called them. Others are much more powerful. This is not necessarily a bad thing and is probably working exactly as the devs intended. However, it greatly changes the progression/structure of the quest when random spawns can be SO much stronger than the mini-bosses and bosses. These "champions+" do significantly more than a "a bit more damage" than regular monsters as described in the Release Notes. Two quick (non EE) anecdotes would be 1500HP Kobold Shamans throwing Lightning Bolts and Magic Missiles in HE Butchers Path (not an easy quest) or Troglodyte casters in HE The Pit (decidedly not an easy quest), who spam Melf's Acid Arrows (no saving throw) that hit for 50-75HP/tick and that eat right thru Energy Protection. Or they toss multiple Scorching Rays (save for half damage) that hit for 250-350 HP per ray. One or two of these in a hall or room can be overcome with strategy and tactics of course, but a room full of them would seem to be very difficult for a good group to defeat without a lot of resources. I'm not trying to infer that new or casual players should be able to do these difficult quest on HE, but even well-equipped, multiple PL characters with ship buffs for Energy Resistance who can't repeatedly self-cast Energy Protection are not going to last very long when five of the seven casters are Champions as we saw in the end fight of The Pit. This is to say nothing about the various protection/escort type missions where the random champions maybe can't kill the player character, but obliterate the NPC you have to protect.

2. My observations over many different quests are that the random spawn rate is much higher than about 10%. Its closer to 25%-33% overall, with a much higher percentage (66%-75%) of orange-named and casters being champions.


From a "Big Picture" perspective, I'm not necessarily opposed to these new champions. I actually support the concept, but I've had to think quite a bit trying to make up my mind whether the introduction of champions in its current implementation has been -- or will be -- a good idea for DDO. People will have their own thoughts, but based on my experience and perspective, I believe that this is a rather fundamental overall change to DDO. We'll have to see, but whether you like them or not, the introduction of Champions would appear to have significantly changed the DDO game mechanism/structure. Some will take it in stride (as they have posted here and other places). Others clearly don't like it. Most of us are still trying to figure out what we think and are waiting to see how things shake out.

First point: As others have said, you can not please everyone all of the time. But I do think that this is a significant change to the overall DDO game "system" because it suddenly changes the expectations for many (majority?) of non-1% players. For some time, you have become accustomed to certain way of playing and utilizing your scarce in-game time. Now quests will take longer and you will NOT be able to play DDO (i.e. get the XP and loot) the way you did before. Of course this is going to make some people upset. Whether it is for better or for worse for the game or EE gamers is not really relevant in the short term if people get PO'ed and leave.

Were things too easy before? Depends on your perspective, but if you are no longer able to accomplish what you were able to do previously, it leads to frustration and people getting upset. Some adapt and overcome as we have done in the past. I'm pretty confident that others will decide it is time to move along to something else because it is no longer fun for them. Neither you nor I can tell these people that this new way of doing things is good for the game. They have to decided this for themselves, and if they can never do HE/EE quests and continually die in HH or EH as they used to do, will they decide it isn't fun any longer? You can say (and some already have on these posts) that you can just "click" a different difficulty level. That is absolutely correct. You can. However, will they??? When they didn't have to before??

This is unfortunate because we ALL suffer the consequences when people leave and the game base population get smaller.

Second point: I also think this change will worsen the gap between the major of players (who rarely ever read the forums and NEVER post a message) and hardcore EE gamers. The EE crowd who generally have already gathered their end-game equipment and done their Past Lives will continue their EE ways. The rest of the players will now (appropriately??) have to click HN/HH and EN/EH based on knowledge of the game and equipment and WILL NOT be able to catch up with EE gamers or even mid-power people in order to do the endgame raids and quests because they "move slower" (so to speak). In order to gather the knowledge, XP and equipment they need, they have to do quests, but can't do them at the same rate, and so the current "delta" between them and the EE crowd will grow even larger. People see and hear about what the power gamers have done and loot they get, and naturally will want to be able to do this too. Most people understand that it has taken the power gamers a lot of time and effort to get to point where they "can solo EE." Many of them have been or are willing to put in the time/effort to get to a similar point, but now they will have to "go slower." It has moved the goal posts overnight.

Its also not necessarily just leaving the EE crowds to "do their own thing" as some have said because this two-tiered system creates -- or appears to perpetuate -- a perception of "Haves" and Have-Nots" which again leads to frustration and discontent. Many casual players will never get to even a mid-level status, which is where the bulk of game players are really located....

On a personal note, I do not support the way this change was introduced. It seems to have been very sudden and abrupt for the majority of people who do not go to Lammania or read the Lammania forums. It could have been presented in a much better way in order to temper/prepare people's understanding of what was going to happen. Instead, we got a short blurb in the release notes that really did not explain what was going to happened and what it meant.

Anyways, Good luck and have fun in game!!

[BDog77]

It's like EE melee combat before u 23 WITHOUT any prr I would say.

Yeah, which begs the question, what exactly was the point of U23 again?

[BD_]

Maybe they are "bosses" because of their blue blood, people skills or charming personality instead of combat prowess ?.
Nothing wrong that trash mob that fights and kills adventurers every day shouldn't be better

Ok, good smart*** response.

On a serious note:
In real life: Sure
In a fantasy game that's meant to be fun: No...

[Kaytis]

That's more exclamations than a Fran post! (I kid Fran!)

For reals tho, what Difficulty were you on? What was it that hit you?

In general tho, everyone needs to relax just a bit. Various game changes were implemented in the past and folks raised the pitchforks and a few weeks later it was business as usual. Anyone else remember shroud blades, flenser polar rays, -con spam in GoP, etc etc.

Just sit back and relax, this will all soon be but a happy memory.

Shroud blades and flenser Polar Rays were quietly toned down. That's why no one talks about it any more. The water works mandatory acid trap was basically turned off as far as I can tell. But the real damage these things caused before being fixed was really in dollar terms, not hit points. Pitchforks are needed when the health of the game is at stake.

[Thar]

house of broken chains. 16 champions out of 65 kills

[Albinosaurus]

Shroud blades and flenser Polar Rays were quietly toned down. That's why no one talks about it any more. The water works mandatory acid trap was basically turned off as far as I can tell. But the real damage these things caused before being fixed was really in dollar terms, not hit points. Pitchforks are needed when the health of the game is at stake.

QFT. Someone actually understands.

While I would prefer they just undo this change and remove champions completely, I wouldn't be opposed to some method of making them tolerable/justifiable, as I stated earlier in the thread (page 7). What WILL drive me away is leaving them as they are, or changes that don't include making the killing of these bastards worth my time. The entire game--most games, in fact--are driven by an effort->reward system, and these things require a lot more effort for NO reward. That simply will not work. And that's not even talking about the exclusionary implications others have mentioned already.

This was quite simply a gigantic blunder, and it requires attention ASAP. I would even posit that every hour that things are left like this are dollars falling out of DDO and into some other game.

[Qhualor]

Shroud blades and flenser Polar Rays were quietly toned down. That's why no one talks about it any more. The water works mandatory acid trap was basically turned off as far as I can tell. But the real damage these things caused before being fixed was really in dollar terms, not hit points. Pitchforks are needed when the health of the game is at stake.

Shroud blades were toned down from the what appears to be the same forum rage we are seeing now with Champions.

Flenser Polar Rays don't seem to be toned down to me. last time I ran Threnal a few months ago I almost died from 1 shot after opening the secret door. been like that every time I run that quest.

WW acid trap was nerfed hard. with 5 acid resist from ship I take minor damage.

the -10 to -20 con damage in heroic GOP still exists. just ran that quest on elite with a group 2 days ago and we all wiped twice at the last wave. reminds me of the Phase Spiders in Von 2 that 1 hit would make you completely helpless suffering a huge amount of Cha damage.

sometimes pitchforks are needed to get the devs attention when things are completely out of whack with the game and the attention should be addressed yesterday. I don't think pitchforks are necessary with the Champions because the devs are plenty aware of specific problems and are asking for as detailed feedback as possible to try to correct them. this kind of uproar though will definitely cause Champions to be changed in some way by next patch and maybe even the next one or two after that.

[phillymiket]

Every time they change a class, a race, a skill, enhancements, destinies... 2WF, classes.. etc.. I have been affected, EVERYONE has been affected personally. You roll with the punches and adapt to the new methods or you move along. The Sky is falling around here at LEAST once a year, you have been here long enough to see it. You know the initial wave of panic sets in and torches are grabbed, but in the end people will adjust and come out stronger/better/wiser.

You are correct the players are stronger than the used to be, that's what happens when you add epic levels to a system not designed for them (and yes there was power creep on top of it). This is just one step toward making the game appeal to MORE people... It is challenging for those looking for a challenge while leaving it easy for other that need that avenue.

Yes of course we all change and adapt when this and that changes.

But other changes have helped you.

"Oh noes! I can roll up a zippy super-bard!", 'Lordsy! Now I feel the need to TR into indestructable Paladin! What will I do!", "PRR and MRR? oh save me cruel fate!"

Except for minor little things, such as Holy Sword or Nerfing obviously not WAI destinies etc, etc whens the last time something not wholly positive was intentionally changed for players? TWF nerf?

What I was asking you was, "how would you feel about your gear getting nerfed", which would clearly negatively impact your game - as this difficulty bump might impact others - not "how would you feel about some minor and probably good thing to change as it often does"?

That being said, to be clear, I like Champions. I'm AFK from fighting some right now.

I just worry that the implementation (all Heroic and Epic Hard and Elite at all levels) might be too drastic and might drive away some of the precious few still here.

How about...starting at level 12?

...just Elite maybe?

...an added new Champion level of play?

...make them 10% less cool?

...half the spawn?

...not have all predictably equipped with can of whoop az and true seeing?

But if it is, it is. i'm fine with it.

I'm not saying getting one shotted is cool, or too many are spawning. Minor adjustments should always be made in any new system, i'm just saying - Dont just blindly give into anyone that wants to turn it off because they want to run hard and elite quests as the NORMAL EASY.

I 100% agree.
It's just that I still can run Elite.
DC > Champion.
New guy =/= DC
Therefore New Guy takes the hit.
New guy isn't the issue.
It's the OP Vets that run the EE stuff in their sleep, they still will just not as fast.

[Thar]

I'm not saying getting one shotted is cool, or too many are spawning. Minor adjustments should always be made in any new system, i'm just saying - Dont just blindly give into anyone that wants to turn it off because they want to run hard and elite quests as the NORMAL EASY.

And don't blindly give into anyone that whines that things were too easy. EH/EE should not be something only 1% of the population can run. Expecially when turbine points for favor and favor rewards are part of the process. As the game continues on, unless there is a server merger, short man and imperfectly balanced groups have to be expected and accounted for. How many full pugs do you see? and waiting an hour for a 20 min quest isn't fun. it's stupid.

I ran EE prior, during and will continue to do so as after playing this game since beta i am able and entitled to but if I'm not making realistic progress as a point of time vs xp then i'll go do something else as in another game. I will not waste my time.

[Uska]

hard to tell, but that looks like the Beholder area of Von3.

73 Champions would mean about an ~75% spawn rate as there are just over 100 mobs from the beginning to that quest.

Perhaps you exaggerate a bit?

and since there are no mini bosses in Von3 (all the named are Red, Not orange) there would not be any chests.

The named beholders in von 3 would be mini bosses and if champion should give an extra chest.

[stoerm]

I've only run low level quests after the update. STK was no longer an easy walkthrough due to the champions, and I had to actually be careful with my multi-TR.

Good job!

[Braegan]

Shroud blades and flenser Polar Rays were quietly toned down. That's why no one talks about it any more. The water works mandatory acid trap was basically turned off as far as I can tell. But the real damage these things caused before being fixed was really in dollar terms, not hit points. Pitchforks are needed when the health of the game is at stake.

As well I am sure champs will see some tweaking. Also, I am positive folks will better handle them in time. It's been a single day! Of course a new change should present some difficulty on day 1!

The combination of tweaking and players getting used to the champs in general will make this a laughable occurrence making some of these posters think in a few weeks "Why was I so worked up over this, it's easy now?"

I understand all to well the concern of the games health. But if folks are willing to quit on the 1st day of a change without even giving it time to get used to or whatever, then they were going to quit anyway due to this change or another. The only constant in an mmo is that it changes, if it doesn't it becomes a dinosaur.

[mna]

house of broken chains. 16 champions out of 65 kills

That's still less than the 5 out of 12 in elite Cannith Crystal, yes, the level 1 quest...


Makes for "interesting" protect-the-NPC quests, this does indeed. Except when you get lucky and the NPC to be protected is the champion... (can that actually happen?)