Monster Champion Feedback

[Keladon]

I suppose that we will have to agree to disagree. I suppose that there will always be a rift between those that like to figure things out and those that prefer to mash buttons.

edit: nevermind, you're just trying to provoke people.

Bugs are not intended to challenge us and promote creative thinking, feel free to ask any dev that if you don't believe me.

[lendarker]

New player (well, kinda) story.

Background: Stumbled across DDO years ago, little time and not really being able to solo much turned me off, real life happened, and I forgot about it after spending money on 32pt builds, veteran status, warforged, and monk.

A few weeks ago, I returned. Got a little hooked again. Bought the expansions and the starter pack when they were on sale on Steam (75% off, yay).

Played, liked it, enjoyed doing quests on elite when my level had caught up with the level scaling of a quest. Then champions happened. And for the most part, it's okay. Every now and then, though, things like this happen:

I was playing "Durk's got a secret" Elite (so Quest Level 4) on a level 5 toon (Cl3/F1/R1) with Augment Summoning, the permahire cleric from the starter pack, a lvl 5 hireling cleric, and my trusty summoned scorpion. Maybe it's a bit gimped, I don't know. Usually the buffed-up hirelings do splendidly, and my main character is somewhat resilient and able to deal with most situations.

Meet the champion goblin shaman.

Cleared out the other mobs around the shaman (taking cover in the various niches) to get him alone, since champions are somewhat more durable than regular mobs. Hirelings storm at him, I choose to position myself behind him. Gobin Shaman casts lightning. Two hirelings plus one scorpion dead. Since I'm standing behind him, I'm still good. Goblin Shaman turns around, casts lightning. Player character dead.

Now, I appreciate a challenge. I appreciate that this game still has a learning curve, and that you have a few tools to tailer your character for the situation, like resist gear etc. - but the damage output these guys have seems to be just a TINY little bit over the top. Let them hit hard with their spells, like about 25-35% of the player's life at level. Give players a chance to react, use tactics, kite them, gang up on them to eliminate them as quickly as possible...but instakills have never been fun in any game I know, except perhaps some rare old-school adventures containing a number of exceptional deaths.

So, unless this is not for a first life player who enjoys a challenge and can deal well with everything else that the game has thrown at him so far (which is about on a starting out on Delera's Tomb level of progress), I'd say the balance for these critters is still a bit off.

On low levels, I'd say: 25-50% more life, and strongly limit the damage bonus they get (to perhaps half of what is possible now...hoping that'd be enough to survive a cast of that terror lightning at level 4/5 so one could step back and heal up).

[Merfyn]

The elitism of long term players in DDO is staggering. Because you had trouble playing Korthos years ago means my friends and I shouldn't be able to complete elite quests because of ridiculous inflated Champions? What kind of bizarre logic is that? Do you think new players need to be hazed as if they were joining some kind of exclusive fraternity?

Pretty much, judging by many of the comments...



What's vastly different <now> is that this game is in the "obsolescence" phase of older product life-cycle models. Back in the "good old days" most people didn't scorn n00bs because everyone was new, and the content was probably less familiar to all.

Again, these threads seem to have a lot more n00b-hostility than I've encountered in-game, where DDO still seems to have one of the friendliest communities I've encountered..

[count_spicoli]

New player (well, kinda) story.

Background: Stumbled across DDO years ago, little time and not really being able to solo much turned me off, real life happened, and I forgot about it after spending money on 32pt builds, veteran status, warforged, and monk.

A few weeks ago, I returned. Got a little hooked again. Bought the expansions and the starter pack when they were on sale on Steam (75% off, yay).

Played, liked it, enjoyed doing quests on elite when my level had caught up with the level scaling of a quest. Then champions happened. And for the most part, it's okay. Every now and then, though, things like this happen:

I was playing "Durk's got a secret" Elite (so Quest Level 4) on a level 5 toon (Cl3/F1/R1) with Augment Summoning, the permahire cleric from the starter pack, a lvl 5 hireling cleric, and my trusty summoned scorpion. Maybe it's a bit gimped, I don't know. Usually the buffed-up hirelings do splendidly, and my main character is somewhat resilient and able to deal with most situations.

Meet the champion goblin shaman.

Cleared out the other mobs around the shaman (taking cover in the various niches) to get him alone, since champions are somewhat more durable than regular mobs. Hirelings storm at him, I choose to position myself behind him. Gobin Shaman casts lightning. Two hirelings plus one scorpion dead. Since I'm standing behind him, I'm still good. Goblin Shaman turns around, casts lightning. Player character dead.

Now, I appreciate a challenge. I appreciate that this game still has a learning curve, and that you have a few tools to tailer your character for the situation, like resist gear etc. - but the damage output these guys have seems to be just a TINY little bit over the top. Let them hit hard with their spells, like about 25-35% of the player's life at level. Give players a chance to react, use tactics, kite them, gang up on them to eliminate them as quickly as possible...but instakills have never been fun in any game I know, except perhaps some rare old-school adventures containing a number of exceptional deaths.

So, unless this is not for a first life player who enjoys a challenge and can deal well with everything else that the game has thrown at him so far (which is about on a starting out on Delera's Tomb level of progress), I'd say the balance for these critters is still a bit off.

On low levels, I'd say: 25-50% more life, and strongly limit the damage bonus they get (to perhaps half of what is possible now...hoping that'd be enough to survive a cast of that terror lightning at level 4/5 so one could step back and heal up).

Hope you don't take offense to this but you shouldn't be in elite at all. You played a little here and there and you want to just jump in and smack elite up. So I have played consistently for 5 years and have a toon with max gear and I'm running in a group with 5 others like me. We don't get one shot because our hp is double yours. We also work together to neutralize the crown. Right now for me and my 5 really experienced player buddies the game is way too easy. The first run of the crowns changed all that and made the game fun for us again. Why can't the really experienced players have 1 setting g that is fun for them while the rest can have 3 all to themselves.
That seems fair to me.

ps. I have some toons that is I would only run on hard or lower for the most part because they are not elite built. And I'm ok with that.

[Thlargir]

If you're so good at the game and have been playing for years, why are you still so worried about content intended for brand new players? Do you spend a lot of time running Korthos and Harbor quests? Shouldn't you be running raids, or crafting gear, or doing other high level things?

The elitism of long term players in DDO is staggering. Because you had trouble playing Korthos years ago means my friends and I shouldn't be able to complete elite quests because of ridiculous inflated Champions? What kind of bizarre logic is that? Do you think new players need to be hazed as if they were joining some kind of exclusive fraternity?

In answer to your first question I play Korthos/Harbour once per life on TRs, and as a permadeath character. I have never claimed to be "so good at the game", I am simply trying to point out that the game allowed for four different levels of difficulty to cater to different levels of experience and gear. However, over time the playerbase has migrated to running only elite. Thus, those four levels have become one.

The devs are trying (in a relatively easy to implement, global mechanism) to re-establish the spectra of difficulties. Perhaps they would have produced a more acceptable result if they had renamed casual->normal, renamed normal->hard, renamed hard->elite, renamed elite->uber when they introduced champions.

I have never had any requirements for any LFM I put up (if that is what you mean by hazing), and if you look at my post history you will see that I have vehemently objected to such.

[MissPerfect]

The non-vip unlock mechanism for difficulty tells the tale just fine, as does the corresponding XP requirements to level up. First-life characters have to run a quest on normal first (barring opener), second-lifers can start with hard, and third(+)-lifers can start with elite.

New players need to take advantage of the difficulty system to learn "how not to suck at DDO". This is not hazing, nor is it elitism; it is common sense. No one is entitled to roflstomp through any elite quest, but everyone has the opportunity to learn how to do just that... someday.

I like the nerfed version of champions on Hard, but I want the original version of champions back on Elite, please.

[count_spicoli]

The devs are trying (in a relatively easy to implement, global mechanism) to re-establish the spectra of difficulties. Perhaps they would have produced a more acceptable result if they had renamed casual->normal, renamed normal->hard, renamed hard->elite, renamed elite->uber when they introduced champions.

.

+1 that is a great idea. Wish the devs would have thought of that. Of course you will still have some claim that they should be able to solo uber with terrible characters.

[phillymiket]

Hope you don't take offense to this but you shouldn't be in elite at all. You played a little here and there and you want to just jump in and smack elite up. So I have played consistently for 5 years and have a toon with max gear and I'm running in a group with 5 others like me. We don't get one shot because our hp is double yours. We also work together to neutralize the crown. Right now for me and my 5 really experienced player buddies the game is way too easy. The first run of the crowns changed all that and made the game fun for us again. Why can't the really experienced players have 1 setting g that is fun for them while the rest can have 3 all to themselves.
That seems fair to me.

ps. I have some toons that is I would only run on hard or lower for the most part because they are not elite built. And I'm ok with that.

What you are not recognizing is that the starter areas of any game should be fundamentally different.

You want a new player to see possibilities not road blocks.
Let them run some Elite with the Vets on Korthos to see what grouping is like!
The Vets can tell them that "Elite gets harder later".
They'll know anyway because that's the way all games are because it works.

Let the Champions come when they start doing the House quests.
Better they quit after they bought a shared bank and STK pack then before. Right?

or we can all get hung up on the word "Elite" so much so that we forget about words like "new player retention" or "surviving to see another few years".

In answer to your first question I play Korthos/Harbour once per life on TRs, and as a permadeath character. I have never claimed to be "so good at the game", I am simply trying to point out that the game allowed for four different levels of difficulty to cater to different levels of experience and gear. However, over time the playerbase has migrated to running only elite. Thus, those four levels have become one.

Cart before horse.

You want to eliminate new players from being able to play Hard and Elite in the hopes that it changes LFMs that are 95%+ posted by Vets?

How will that happen?

The Vet's will still run Elite. I am.

Will new players suddenly rise up to form a new Nation forged in Liberty and post their own LFMs?

Maybe, but it would be a first. I sure wouldn't stake my whole deal on it if I owned this thing.

Not a sound strategy. Again you get the cost up front (new players leaving) and maybe get a positive change much later.

It's especially baffling seeing as the Devs have been doing the opposite for so many updates now.

That is, going for the benefit up front of selling new content by adding OP 'must have' gear etc than suffering the consequences later with imbalance, which is where we are now.

The devs are trying (in a relatively easy to implement, global mechanism) to re-establish the spectra of difficulties. Perhaps they would have produced a more acceptable result if they had renamed casual->normal, renamed normal->hard, renamed hard->elite, renamed elite->uber when they introduced champions.

BINGO!

WINNER!

That is, if you mean get rid of casual and have four settngs scaled from what is now Normal up.

1)What is now Normal 2) What is now Hard pre Champ 3) What is now Elite 4) The "new elite" which is Elite now but harder with Champions added. (call the setting whatever you want, name Norm and Elite doesn't matter.)

That gives new guy Normal and he/she can move up to Hard.

It makes sense and is not Bizzaro like how it is now with Super Nerf > Nerf > Much harder > Much much hader.

[kmoustakas]

I really like champions and I don't mind the added difficulty they present.

However, I don't understand non-champion orange-named bosses surrounded by champion trash. Maybe make the code so that if an orange or red name is there make him the champion instead? Or make all orange named bosses champions on epic elite instead of random trash mobs?

[redoubt]

Zombies and Skeletons I think should be eligible for certain 'champion' buffs. After all, the necro or priest who made them could have put some extra juice into them. But nothing 'tactics' based. Mostly procs or resists/absorbs.

If we are going to have champions, I'd like to see them as "Champions" and not just buffed mobs. Put these buffs on mobs that are "intelligent" and would become leaders within the groups of mobs.

They are a good idea poorly implemented while also being redundant since they already existed from the 1st day DDO launched..

1) Quests already have "named" mobs that randomly spawn in them, these mobs have (supposedly) been properly calibrated to the difficulty of the dungeon and give some kind of XP and/or loot appropriate to thier level (at least at the time they were made.. now 99% of of it junk since you get better loot from "random chest trash".. IE. DIFFERENT ISSUE ENTIRELY).
2) "Champions" power does not scale appropriately to SOME monsters. There are instances where I see a champion crown and proceed to cut that monster down like its not even there.. and then there are times when a champion monster one shots me.. complete lack of consistency in power.
3) "Champions" can RUIN ESCORT QUESTS.. Yep.. had a champ ONE SHOT Brawnpits in "A Small Problem" during the escort phase.. just straight up full HP to dead.. completing a quest should be about Preparedness and tactics.. not about whether you are going to win/loose the champion lottery.
4) BUGS - While its funny seeing non-combat NPCS be champions, some of the other bugs are just bad.. for instance the ever present champion that spawns with only 1/10th of its max health.. I have seen at least 30+ of those over the last few days. (I'm sure there are more bugs in the system that I haven't even noticed)
5) Consistency.. again. when I go into a level 8 Quest on Elite, I am expecting to be fighting level 10'ish monsters, monsters that I can plan for, that I know will have X abilities that can be countered with Y gear/tactic. Champions completely toss that out. Now your one and only plan is "Bring more heals" or "be super over powered due to TR's + twink gear".

Good points.

Enquiring minds would like to know why you did not kill the worg before you have the rat run the maze (if soloing) or simultaneously with a party member running the rat through the maze (if in a group)?

Cleric, rogue, paladin, fighter, barbarian and a monk go into Tomb of the tormented. How do they kill the wargs again? (Or substitute in a ranger maybe?)

[axel15810]

Devs, are you sure the initial spawn rates weren't bugged?

I know you said the elite spawn rate was only reduced from 12% to 9% but it seems like way way more than that. Same with the damage boost. Are you sure it was reduced by only 25%? Again, it feels like way more than that. Champs don't seem to hit much harder than normal mobs.

And after further play I even moreso feel the nerf was way too much. I don't even notice the champions now. The difficulty is pretty much exactly what it was pre-update 24. Really missing the original champions.

The vast majority of Epic Elite still presents little challenge to the average public PUG. I PUG almost exclusively and it's rare that I'm in a group that wipes in an EE quest. And I don't even play a top tier build.

The only exception being a couple of the endgame quests like Ghosts of Perdition and What Goes Up. And of course the endgame raids on epic elite like Deathwyrm, Fire Peaks and Mark of Death. I'd also include the new Terminal Delerium quest. But that's about it.

[MisterCanoeHead]

Hope you don't take offense to this but you shouldn't be in elite at all. You played a little here and there and you want to just jump in and smack elite up. So I have played consistently for 5 years and have a toon with max gear and I'm running in a group with 5 others like me. We don't get one shot because our hp is double yours. We also work together to neutralize the crown. Right now for me and my 5 really experienced player buddies the game is way too easy. The first run of the crowns changed all that and made the game fun for us again. Why can't the really experienced players have 1 setting g that is fun for them while the rest can have 3 all to themselves.
That seems fair to me.

ps. I have some toons that is I would only run on hard or lower for the most part because they are not elite built. And I'm ok with that.

If you and your 5 really awesome friends find the Korthos and Harbor quests too easy why aren't you playing epic levels? Do you like showing off to new players? Do you just like complaining about how awesome you are?

I still don't understand why so many "elite" players in this game are demanding that the low level quests be made harder for their epic toons.

Go play epic if you're awesome. Laughing at new players and calling them "noobs" while bragging about how you can run through elite Korthos is about as lame as it gets.

[phillymiket]

Devs, are you sure the initial spawn rates weren't bugged?

I know you said the elite spawn rate was only reduced from 12% to 9% but it seems like way way more than that. Same with the damage boost. Are you sure it was reduced by only 25%? Again, it feels like way more than that. Champs don't seem to hit much harder than normal mobs.

And after further play I even moreso feel the nerf was way too much. I don't even notice the champions now. The difficulty is pretty much exactly what it was pre-update 24. Really missing the original champions.

Agreed. Spawn rate is way down, not just a little.

Plus I'd like to see the AVERAGE Champ in EPIC hit harder/be tougher (and eliminate those rare wing-nut mobs that hit super hard out of the blue.)

Epic was nerfed too hard.

[Enoach]

...
You want to eliminate new players from being able to play Hard and Elite in the hopes that it changes LFMs that are 95%+ posted by Vets?

How will that happen?

...

The only way to change the LFM paradigm is for the players to shed the social stigma that has caused them to personally choose to run content on a specific difficulty.

When Bravery Bonus was added to DDO it was intended to solve the XP earning issue that multi-life characters where running into by granting a bonus for running a more difficult level. However, much like any tool it became miss-used but not by Turbine by the player base itself. The forums are full of people only run elite and you won't get anyone for any other difficulty type posts. But that is not the reality. Any new player coming to the forums would think DDO players are not nice people, however, most have commented that this it is not reflected in the game itself.

It is up to the player base to change how it social reacts in the game. The addition of champions (while still needing tweaks) is a way to encourage this change. However, each player needs to also change how they look at the system as well.

[Thlargir]

If we are going to have champions, I'd like to see them as "Champions" and not just buffed mobs. Put these buffs on mobs that are "intelligent" and would become leaders within the groups of mobs.

You can imagine certain buffs being appropriate to certain types of mob. The genetically mutant gray ooze who is also immune to acid, or the huge pudding doing double damage.

By the way, if a crowned pudding splits are the sub-puddings crowned also, and do they inherit the original puddings buffs?

[Thlargir]

cleric, rogue, paladin, fighter, barbarian and a monk go into tomb of the tormented. How do they kill the wargs again? (or substitute in a ranger maybe?)

umd

[Monkey-Boy]

One thing I saw that was kinda funny was in Elite Collaborator (Korthos bar quest) I'm low level swinging a starter rapier (I don't twink at low levels) and a champion had the damage reduction of damage type piercing so that if I didn't have 3 monk PLs and 3 Enchant weapons PLs I would have done zero damage to it.

of course it wasn't an issue for me as I had the PLS, or I could have pulled out a different weapon type.

But would a new player have been completely stuck by this?

Yeah, there's that tired old (and incorrect) argument that "new players don't run elite" but still, this is spillover from trying to add challenge at higher levels that has the potential to break lower levels.

Just something for the devs to chew on.

[lendarker]

Hope you don't take offense to this but you shouldn't be in elite at all. You played a little here and there and you want to just jump in and smack elite up. So I have played consistently for 5 years and have a toon with max gear and I'm running in a group with 5 others like me. We don't get one shot because our hp is double yours. We also work together to neutralize the crown. Right now for me and my 5 really experienced player buddies the game is way too easy. The first run of the crowns changed all that and made the game fun for us again. Why can't the really experienced players have 1 setting g that is fun for them while the rest can have 3 all to themselves.
That seems fair to me.

ps. I have some toons that is I would only run on hard or lower for the most part because they are not elite built. And I'm ok with that.

Hope you don't take offense to this, but I said I run everything else fine solo on Elite. Some quests I come back for later when it seems I can't quite punch it, yet, and I have no problem at all with difficulty. I have a problem with getting a purely random kick in the nuts. Next run that goblin shaman isn't a champion and I breeze through. So, basically, except for the purely random chance of encountering some completely out-of-sync-with-the-rest-of-the-quest champion, I'm DEALING with Elite. Solo. As a new player. That, in itself, may be a problem. Maybe Elite truly has become too easy. This is not the way to solve that problem, though.All it does is introduce a *TOTALLY* random gear/hp check.

To be honest, I agree with your sentiment that probably a much better way to go about it would have been a fourth difficulty where each and every mob were a champion. As an experienced and bored gamer, I can imagine I'd find that fun to tackle, and something to TR over and over for, to squeeze that last bit of power out of my main character (which already sounds more appealing than just creating several different characters).

If you put in mobs like this, don't make them hard by giving them one-shot damage and loads of hp. Make them hard by giving them loads of hp, and maybe even one-shot-damage, but with a gameplay mechanic a player can exploit to dodge it. Or fail it and die. Let players become more skilled, instead of requiring 17 past lives and +6 tomes to all stats as well as top crafter bind on account hand-me-down gear that doubles your hp from 90 to 180 so a 120 hp hit isn't an instant death.

Edit: For example, say said goblin shaman has 2 spells available (just to keep it simple). One is an instant/short cast area spell dealing a moderate amount of damage to everybody around him. The other deals 100-150 damage, but has a three second charge-up. In this case, as soon as he begins charging up his "death lightning bolt of hero slaying", players can run for cover, and come back to fight when that charge has been spent.

What I'm saying is...why not introduce some interesting mechanics instead of just brute force?


Edit 2: btw. I'm a premium player on my first life, so I already "work my way up" to Elite through normal and hard for each quest. It's not like I sub, open everything up on Elite and expect loot to fall from the sky.

[phillymiket]

The only way to change the LFM paradigm is for the players to shed the social stigma that has caused them to personally choose to run content on a specific difficulty.

I disagree.
It's not the 'stigma' of running Normal that is the issue.
It's that, with little exception, Vets post LFMs, new people join LFMs.
Therefore, modifying new players experience won't change LFMs one little bit.
You have to make Vets want to run Normal, which won't happen because of rewards.
Result: New person has a limited or potentially negative experience.
A game wants new people to have a broad and positive experience, that is, if you have sense, both of survival and common.

When Bravery Bonus was added to DDO it was intended to solve the XP earning issue that multi-life characters where running into by granting a bonus for running a more difficult level.

It was a quick-fix that traded a temporary solution for a lack of content, a problem that would solve it self in time, in exchange for hopelessly skewing the LFMs toward Elite and shooting themselves in the foot by making it unnecissary to buy many of the pack to be able to cap.

However, much like any tool it became miss-used but not by Turbine by the player base itself.

I disagree.
The players did what any reasonable person would expect them to do - run the one that gives the super huge bonus! :-D
What should players have done instead?

The forums are full of people only run elite and you won't get anyone for any other difficulty type posts. But that is not the reality. Any new player coming to the forums would think DDO players are not nice people, however, most have commented that this it is not reflected in the game itself.

It is up to the player base to change how it social reacts in the game. The addition of champions (while still needing tweaks) is a way to encourage this change. However, each player needs to also change how they look at the system as well.

I guess we can agree there.
But I just think it's foolish to stake your business on a change that has never happened, shows no sign of happening, has no real reason for happening.
But we can hope.

[Sehenry03]

Ok so a question to everyone posting here...and I mean this with no sarcasm...

How many of you have actually played with new players in the last week?

I am not saying I speak for all new players...but here is a basic breakdown of the last few days of questing with Ziffin my TR Druid

I was lvl 10 when champs were introduced and I hit 20 and I TR'ed. Now when I TR'ed it was after the nerf to Champs.

I got my stuff and immediately posted in harbor and korthos "Running all Korthos quests on Elite if any lvls 1-3 want to join". I had 2 people join. 1 was an arty the other a fighter. The fighter moved here from another server but had only played a few days before that. The Arty was on for the first time. I helped the Arty understand his class(didn't know they were a good trapper) and gave both of them some lowbie stuff to get going. We did all Korthos and all the lvl 2 quests on Elite also. I told them I moved along fast but if they wanted me to explain anything just ask. Both kept up just fine (the arty caught on quick and did well). We were all lvl 4 when done and I called it a night. Oh I also told them to talk to Bathory Horde for possible guild so they could get ship buffs and more help.

Next day I got back on at lvl 4. I had the Arty send me a tell right away and I invited him again. Also got a monk who was lvl 4 to join my LFM and the fighter sent me a msg but he was lvl 8 as he had played with his guild all night. The arty, monk and my druid then did all lvl 3 quests and lvl 4 quests again on Elite and again I moved right along. The monk died a few times but did well and kept up pretty good. The arty I found out rerolled to get trapping skills and to redo his stats and that's why he was lvl 4 still when I got on. All the quests went fine and they especially loved Proof is in the Poison and we actually did that one with no deaths while people died in easier ones. I also had a cleric join...name is Diminished who was pretty new and he was able to do the f2p quests only.

Next day the monk and the cleric joined again. The arty said hi but was in a guild group so he was good. We did all 5 and 6 quests again on elite. A few deaths but no biggie. I would get a hireling trapper for a few quests. The cleric did well enough but he couldn't join for the p2p quests.

Last night we did all lvl 7 quests...the monk joined again. We had 1 other vet join and 2 newish players join and ran a lot of content again on Elite.

I mention all this because out of ALL the people I grouped with...not a single one cared about the champs. Not one. One didn't even know what the crown above the head meant...and then they understood what I was walking about when I said a champion caster was approaching and everyone zerged the caster. The monk got good at tripping champs. Again not one single complaint. The monk and the arty both said when I wasn't there they simply soloed normal and hard quests.

So how many actually talk to new players about this stuff? I see a lot of people keep saying the new players hate it but the ones I have grouped with could care less.

Please be HONEST with your answer to plz.