Monster Champion Feedback

[Thlargir]

I don't think they do - unless you honestly think casual is good for anyone who has solved the "how do I move my guy?" question, or that Normal will challenge and retain a player, or that a person in Starter Gear on Started Island would think fighting a 600+ HP undead constitutes fun times.

Clearly, if this happens at all, then it is a bug.

If the Devs "don't envision new players playing on Hard or Elite" then they don't understand what happens in this game at all and haven't, apparently, even looked at the LFMs for the last few years.

Perhaps they see this as a problem?

I applaud the effort of trying to do something as a cure but I honestly think the current Champion system violates the "first do no harm" theory of curing stuff.

Any change is going to provoke rage quit threats, always has, always will.

Champions can be good and we should keep them but they don't belong everywhere.
Not in rat mazes,
Not for Coyle or against Coyle.
Not on Starter Island.

If you are not equipped for a quest on elite, you should not be running that quest on elite.

There are glaring and obvious flaws in this system that are likely to affect people who will never come to the forums to complain but simply click "uninstall" and try one of the other 6 F2P games they were going to try before picking one to stick with.

Though true I would hazard that for the great majority of folks in this category they do not even get to see a champion. Heck, they cannot even open hard/elite!

So no. There is still not four viable difficulty levels. LFMs are still foe Elite. The game is still unbalanced. Not addressed.
Good start though.
Take what is good, change what is bad, try again, keep trying, eventually the game gets fixed.

But I guess you are right. They tried. That's something and gives me hope.

Only time will tell as to whether these changes open up the spread of LFMs, but as you identify, they are thinking about it. As to whether the game is unbalanced I suppose that depends on what you think balance is...

[phillymiket]

Clearly, if this happens at all, then it is a bug.

It is a bug. Devs have said so. They tried to fix, said they fixed. Didn't. doesn't matter if it's a bug anyway. It exists.

Perhaps they see this as a problem?

Well I asked Sev and he said "We don't envision..." so no they don't seem to think it's a problem.

Any change is going to provoke rage quit threats, always has, always will.

Blanket statement. Can justify any change good or bad. Changes must help the game more than hurt.

If you are not equipped for a quest on elite, you should not be running that quest on elite.

How does "being equipped" help you when your rat is facing a Champion warg? Should the rat get some PDK PLs maybe?

Though true I would hazard that for the great majority of folks in this category they do not even get to see a champion. Heck, they cannot even open hard/elite!

No a f2p can't open Elite unless they dare to actually try to group up.
Plus, isn't the goal to get people to Sub? Why would you if Elite seems unplayable?
Did you stick to Normal when you started?
Not me, I did Normal then tried Hard then tried Elite, back when the game was harder.
I did this by learning from my mistakes.
I was able to do that because the quest wasn't Random it was Planned.
I could go back into that room with the casters that killed me and do something different.
How does a new player learn from a Random Champion walking over and one-shotting the crystal over and over on Korthos? You can't.

Only time will tell as to whether these changes open up the spread of LFMs, but as you identify, they are thinking about it. As to whether the game is unbalanced I suppose that depends on what you think balance is...

Yes the benefit has a long term pay-off and a short-term cost, if it even exists.
But we can just ride it out because DDO is tripping over players at the moment, I guess. ;-)

...and anyone can see the game is unbalanced.

Who thinks it's balanced?... Beuler?

[Thlargir]

Hmm, well, to use that approach would be an exploit... so some people could be reluctant, or unaware of how it's done.

Given that there are forum posts that provide details, the wiki does the same, the fact that the mechanic has existed since day one, and the obvious nature of firing through an open grating floor seem to indicate that this a tactic rather than an exploit?

[Thlargir]

Well I asked Sev and he said "We don't envision..." so no they don't seem to think it's a problem.

That is the point I was making - currently most everyone runs elite only. That is a problem. The Devs don't envision new players running elite, and that is how it should be.

[MisterCanoeHead]

If the goal of introducing Champions was to further reduce new player retention then I think Turbine has done a great job.

I fail to see why having 600 HP monsters that can one shot a new player in starter areas (Korthos/Harbor) is a good thing.

I realize that some players have been playing this game for nearly a decade and find low level content too easy. The question I have is; Why is Turbine altering low level content to better suit long term players? Shouldn't those players be playing high level content? Isn't low level contents main objective to get new players hooked into the game? They should leave the heroic levels alone.

Maybe Turbine should introduce a 5 fifth difficulty level in heroics that is only available to players who have TR'ed. They could increase the spawn rate of Champions in it and leave the other 4 setting as they were. I can honestly say that the Elite difficulty level was already challenging for a group of new players before the update and is now nearly impossible unless you join a group of TR'ed players.

Very few new players want to join a group of TR'ed players that rush through content for the hundredth time and finding other new players to group with is already difficult. The introduction of Champions has only made it worse.

[Thlargir]

How does "being equipped" help you when your rat is facing a Champion warg? Should the rat get some PDK PLs maybe?

See other forum threads, or the wiki, or experiment...

[Keladon]

Given that there are forum posts that provide details, the wiki does the same, the fact that the mechanic has existed since day one, and the obvious nature of firing through an open grating floor seem to indicate that this a tactic rather than an exploit?

Just because it's been around forever, doesn't mean it's WAI.

That seems to apply to a lot of things in DDO

And having to use exploits because of ANOTHER broken feature is even worse if you ask me.

[phillymiket]

See other forum threads, or the wiki, or experiment...

Ok fine.

I guess in your view, Champion wargs is exactly what the Devs envisioned and in no way constitutes a bug or flaw.

And BTW, I suppose all the Devs efforts to stop players from killing the wargs, like by stopping BBs from killing them, means nothing.

They must have intended us to not use BBs but instead blast them with our rune-arms ;-)

If you don't see any flaws with the system then that's how you see it.

I prefer to think you just don't want to budge an inch and are therefore justifying silly elements of Champions with such 'work arounds'.

But I've been wrong about people before, won't be the first time :-)

Work-arounds are nice, but they don't help on Starter Island where people don't know that a Wizard is better off with a great ax.

All they know is whats plain to see - this game is either stupid easy or stupid random.

[Thlargir]

No a f2p can't open Elite unless they dare to actually try to group up.
Plus, isn't the goal to get people to Sub? Why would you if Elite seems unplayable?
Did you stick to Normal when you started?
Not me, I did Normal then tried Hard then tried Elite, back when the game was harder.
I did this by learning from my mistakes.
I was able to do that because the quest wasn't Random it was Planned.
I could go back into that room with the casters that killed me and do something different.
How does a new player learn from a Random Champion walking over and one-shotting the crystal over and over on Korthos? You can't.

Elite is something to strive for, not to be handed over on a silver platter for anteing up.

You appear to be saying that you like the idea of sleep walking through the quests as they are always the same, predictable. The first incarnation of Champions changed that to the extent that you had to at least look to see who was wearing a crown. New version, not so much.

When I started I ran Normal (as that was all I could open) to learn. I was never able to complete Cannith Crystal elite on a level 1 low dps character, and that was just fine. I went back later and made amends.

[Monkey-Boy]

I realize that some players have been playing this game for nearly a decade and find low level content too easy. The question I have is; Why is Turbine altering low level content to better suit long term players? Shouldn't those players be playing high level content? Isn't low level contents main objective to get new players hooked into the game? They should leave the heroic levels alone.

If we had an end-game this wouldn't be an issue.

[phillymiket]

The question I have is; Why is Turbine altering low level content to better suit long term players? Shouldn't those players be playing high level content? Isn't low level contents main objective to get new players hooked into the game? They should leave the heroic levels alone..

This is it exactly^^^^

Sorry to be deceptive but.... You kind of want to create the illusion of a game that someone can master and get into at the start.

That's why every other game has awesome starter gear and easy mobs in the Starter Area.

I don't see that as tricking someone into the game but more keeping them in place until they have invested some time to familiarize themselves and maybe tossed a few bucks our way.

DDO now has some Bizzaro World theory of having bad gear and making the player feel impotent at the start of their game experience.

Who does that?

Elite is something to strive for, not to be handed over on a silver platter for anteing up.

You appear to be saying that you like the idea of sleep walking through the quests as they are always the same, predictable. The first incarnation of Champions changed that to the extent that you had to at least look to see who was wearing a crown. New version, not so much.

When I started I ran Normal (as that was all I could open) to learn. I was never able to complete Cannith Crystal elite on a level 1 low dps character, and that was just fine. I went back later and made amends.

At later levels I agree with you.

DDO ELite Korthos/Harbor solo is not "handed on a silver platter". It's still challenging.

I may appear to want sleepwalking to you but I don't.

I just don't want to sink the ship to make some point that doesn't even apply to Korthos.

You maybe different but I tried Hard and Elite and joined groups. It happens.

Would i have Sub'ed as things stand?

I doubt it.

[Thlargir]

Just because it's been around forever, doesn't mean it's WAI.

True, however, you ignore:

1) Un-nuked Forum threads with the info,
2) the wiki which has info, and
3) the obvious reality of sound (and other effects) not being blocked by an open mesh grating.

[MisterCanoeHead]

If we had an end-game this wouldn't be an issue.

So this game has been in Beta for 8+ years? What is the point in leveling a character if there is no goal to attain at the end?

[Keladon]

True, however, you ignore:

1) Un-nuked Forum threads with the info,
2) the wiki which has info, and
3) the obvious reality of sound (and other effects) not being blocked by an open mesh grating.

1 & 2 - If they had to 'nuke' everything that has info about things that are not WAI, they would have to hire more staff. This isn't hurting the community like duping, but if they had an easy fix, we probably would have seen it by now.
3 - Reality.. really? You're using the 'realistic' argument?

[Thlargir]

I guess in your view, Champion wargs is exactly what the Devs envisioned and in no way constitutes a bug or flaw.

Not at all, I just don't see it as game breaking the way you do. I will give you that it is probably an unintended consequence, but there are ways around it. And if a player is not equipped appropriately (or partying with someone who is) then they should probably not be running elite.

[Thlargir]

3 - Reality.. really? You're using the 'realistic' argument?

Well in all honesty that is why a tried my Verge the first time in that quest. I have to admit that I was a little surprised when it actually worked, but then I thought "how clever of them".

[Monkey-Boy]

So this game has been in Beta for 8+ years? What is the point in leveling a character if there is no goal to attain at the end?

There really isn't any, this game is the most "emperor's new clothes" game ever created. There is little point to the TRing at this point.

Many of us hang around in hoping there will be an end-game come the level 30 cap. Will we see it?

[Keladon]

Not at all, I just don't see it as game breaking the way you do. I will give you that it is probably an unintended consequence, but there are ways around it. And if a player is not equipped appropriately (or partying with someone who is) then they should probably not be running elite.

I wish I had this "I don't mind if it's broken as long as I can work around it" attitude. But I actually like things to work correctly, so I don't have to find a way around them.

Bugs and flawed features should be fixed even if I can find a way around them, which I shouldn't have to in the first place.

[Thlargir]

I wish I had this "I don't mind if it's broken as long as I can work around it" attitude. But I actually like things to work correctly, so I don't have to find a way around them.

I suppose that we will have to agree to disagree. I suppose that there will always be a rift between those that like to figure things out and those that prefer to mash buttons.

[MisterCanoeHead]

Elite is something to strive for, not to be handed over on a silver platter for anteing up.

You appear to be saying that you like the idea of sleep walking through the quests as they are always the same, predictable. The first incarnation of Champions changed that to the extent that you had to at least look to see who was wearing a crown. New version, not so much.

When I started I ran Normal (as that was all I could open) to learn. I was never able to complete Cannith Crystal elite on a level 1 low dps character, and that was just fine. I went back later and made amends.

If you're so good at the game and have been playing for years, why are you still so worried about content intended for brand new players? Do you spend a lot of time running Korthos and Harbor quests? Shouldn't you be running raids, or crafting gear, or doing other high level things?

The elitism of long term players in DDO is staggering. Because you had trouble playing Korthos years ago means my friends and I shouldn't be able to complete elite quests because of ridiculous inflated Champions? What kind of bizarre logic is that? Do you think new players need to be hazed as if they were joining some kind of exclusive fraternity?