Monster Champion Feedback

[Qhualor]

Right now I think the heroic part is quite fine with the changes. I didn't checked the epic, maybe in a few weeks.

Earlier I wrote 'no thanks' to the 'Tomb of the Tormented'. We couldn't resist to do it anyway, but as suspected:



It took aditional 40 min and countless rats to take him out in this already exhausting quest

now this I agree needs adjustment. either give the rat a bigger power boost to take on the Champions or make it so there are no Champion worgs in the maze. this is no fault of the players not being able to handle the Champions and makes a frustrating and boring quest even worse.

[Keladon]

I wish people would STOP saying that players left because of this or that or are leaving because of this or that...you DON'T know. NO ONE knows not even DDO 100%. People leave for a lot of reasons so stop acting like you KNOW its because of lag or because the game is to hard or to easy. Make an educated guess but stop attacking other people because they disagree with you.

Actually.. when players say they're leaving because of champions, you pretty much know why they left..
And when there's a new Update with the biggest feature being champions, followed by players leaving, well.. ofcourse, like you said it's an educated guess but it's a pretty good one.

edit: doesn't ddo also have exit surveys? Those should give Turbine an idea why people cancel their sub.

[Augon]

This is not so much an example of a defect in the Champions as it is an exaggeration of the defects in this quest. If anything, this is perhaps the BEST named quest in the entire game.

[Sehenry03]

Actually.. when players say they're leaving because of champions, you pretty much know why they left..
And when there's a new Update with the biggest feature being champions, followed by players leaving, well.. ofcourse, like you said it's an educated guess but it's a pretty good one.

edit: doesn't ddo also have exit surveys? Those should give Turbine an idea why people cancel their sub.

Actually...no we don't. You NOR I know how many people truly left the game after this update. I DO know that a few of the people who said they are done and quit and will never come back...I have seen on Sarlona still playing. Does that mean 98% left? 50%? 10%? We DON'T know. People get mad and say things all the time. So your point is moot since just because they SAY they are quitting in no way means they DID quit. And after all the hype and ****ed off people and how they ranted...I am willing to bet most stayed if not all (which we don't know that's just my guess) and that after the champion nerf they aren't bothered by them now but they will NEVER get on the forums and say "ok I said I was quitting but I really didn't".

That's why I ask people to stop quoting things they DON'T know. "Stick with the facts its easier to remember" to quote one of my favorite characters from one of my favorite T.V. shows (Kudos to anyone that can name him =))

All this **** about I know whole guilds leaving or I know 10 people who left the first 10 seconds...really? Do ya really? Because I don't see any difference in game other then I have more new people sending me tells asking me for help or questions in the last 2 weeks then the last 2 months.

I have more people jumping into my LFM when I post it and I have no shortage of LFM's to join if I want to jump in one. Is this because I am on Sarlona? is it because I post on the forums telling new players to send me a tell for help? is it because people like the new update? We DON'T know and most likely we never really will.

[Sehenry03]

This is not so much an example of a defect in the Champions as it is an exaggeration of the defects in this quest. If anything, this is perhaps the BEST named quest in the entire game.

I will admit...I will NEVER run this quest til they fix champions for this kind of quest. I already hate this quest with a passion but champions makes this one part a nightmare if you get unlucky. On the flip side a guildy got a rat with the huge dps boost in one of his mazes...****ed me off!!!

[JOTMON]

Right now I think the heroic part is quite fine with the changes. I didn't checked the epic, maybe in a few weeks.

Earlier I wrote 'no thanks' to the 'Tomb of the Tormented'. We couldn't resist to do it anyway, but as suspected:



It took aditional 40 min and countless rats to take him out in this already exhausting quest

This is a good example of how just adding blanket random champions causes problems.

[Scrabbler]

It took aditional 40 min and countless rats to take him out in this already exhausting quest

Of course, the true design error here is that you need to fight the champion with rats at all. The correct way to complete the maze is to move the rat in between the patrol paths of the monsters, without it ever being spotted.

But it was always too delicate to do that, and with the aggro changes over the years it might be impossible now. But the fact that players ever decided the best approach was to just hurl rats into a battle of attrition until the patrols were worn down should've been a signal for the devs to adjust that dungeon, way back within the 1-2 weeks after it launched.

[JOTMON]

Endgame can't actually be created right now, with level 30 looming. People seem to forget that we're approaching that. If they create some mega-grindy 'endgame' now, the same people demanding it will just abandon it and declare it 'worthless' the moment level 30 hits.

Now, once we have 30.../then/ an 'endgame' can be forged. Though it probably won't be as expansive as some people want. But we need to let the devs lay the groundwork, instead of howling at them for something that the game is simply not prepared for yet, and that would be 'ruined' by the upcoming cap increase anyway.

Patience, people.

Why not, people will run endgame content even if endgame levels are not here... haven't you ever under level run content?
Base items are generally lower level and upgraded to higher level.. could be done here..

[Augon]

I am certainly no veteran, but I'm also not a newbie. I've been playing for about 2 1/2 years. I have found the Champions have added some challenge to quests that had begun to coast through. Nothing like a 600hp ghoul to slow your mad dash through Misery's Peak, no doubt about that. I've had some bad experiences with the Champions. A group from my guild ran Outbreak last week and the Champion Primal Wisps were wicked with their Chain Lightening. In another quest in that same chain when you have to kill bears in caves, our rogue snuck ahead to examine the champion bears to determine what their buffs were ahead of time. I soloed Cabal for One yesterday, by far the easies of the flagging quests in Gianthold, and it seemed every Loremaster in the quest was a Champion. I didn't die, but I did have to replace my hire once because she ran out of XP way too fast.
I do see what folks are talking about as far the difficulty these champions add to the game.

Champions are a challenge, but adjusting your strategy and learning from your failures is part of the game. To me if the game is made where I can never fail or struggle, that's when I'll leave. If I go into a quest and am not sure if I will succeed, that adds to the fun. The Champions are a bit of randomness, not just where they will appear but what exactly can they do if they do appear. A really bad random roll that builds an unstoppable Champion is part of the risk, I guess. But usually, I've been able to get through the ones I've come accross. For example the example given of the Ghoul with 600hp in Misery Peak would burn up a lot of spell points for a soloing wiz, but honestly there are tons of shrines in that quest so you can replenish easy enough. And if you die and totally fail the quest, don't look at it as a waste, look at it as you have learned one more way to NOT kill a champion. Repair, re-buff, and head back in!

Personally, as for all the whiners saying, "that's it! I'm quitting", I wish you would. Please quit the game, delete your account in game and on the forums and please just go away. Don't feel the need to leave a flame post to let us know. We don't really care. I've heard it said that WOW stands for World of Whiners, maybe you can find a home there. Don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about the folks voicing their dislike about the champions. I don't care if folks disagree with me and say so. If you don't like them, say you don't like them. But the folks who are always trying to threaten to leave so they can push Turbine into doing things there way remind of spoil brats in the grocery pitching a temper tantrum to get their mom to buy them a new toy.

I like the addition of Champions. If there is a need to add extra loot because of the addition of the champions, I really wish it wasn't just more vendor trash. Honestly why do we need more gems? I think it would be cool for them to drop rare items from across the game. For example, perhaps a Champion in Lords of Dust was working on a Green Steel great axe and drops a Glistening Pebble. Or maybe one in Spinner of Shadows was working on an Epic upgrade and drops a scroll. No need for a whole new system and no real desire for another chest of junk, just drop some of the stuff we are already looking for.

[fmalfeas]

Why not, people will run endgame content even if endgame levels are not here... haven't you ever under level run content?
Base items are generally lower level and upgraded to higher level.. could be done here..

Myself, yes. Frequently. Keeping me out of Harbinger of Madness is pretty much impossible.

But I'm speaking in a much, much broader sense than 'me'. Look at how many people refuse to run something until they're exactly 2 levels over it, so it's as easy as possible with maximum reward.

[Sehenry03]

I like the addition of Champions. If there is a need to add extra loot because of the addition of the champions, I really wish it wasn't just more vendor trash. Honestly why do we need more gems? I think it would be cool for them to drop rare items from across the game. For example, perhaps a Champion in Lords of Dust was working on a Green Steel great axe and drops a Glistening Pebble. Or maybe one in Spinner of Shadows was working on an Epic upgrade and drops a scroll. No need for a whole new system and no real desire for another chest of junk, just drop some of the stuff we are already looking for.

This is a neat idea to. On top of champion mobs having random damage or defense add random drops like this. Nothing OP just something different. Again its random and that's what makes it neat.

I don't WANT to be able to know what champions to prepare for before a quest. I WANT them random and unpredictable and TOUGH. If I am a fire sorc and I only spec fire then its my own dumbass fault for only prepping fire spells and I run into a fire immune mob. Sure I know as an Ice Spec I will have an easy time in Taming the Flames...holy **** did that fire elly just shoot a niacs at me and my cold spells are doing 25% less damage??? Guess what it was random and now I have to THINK how to finish this quest not just easy mode through. Wow that miini boss just dropped a GS dagger blank...while I may never use it...its different so that's fun.

[Keladon]

Actually...no we don't. You NOR I know how many people truly left the game after this update.

I never spoke about numbers at all.

That's why I ask people to stop quoting things they DON'T know. "Stick with the facts its easier to remember" to quote one of my favorite characters from one of my favorite T.V. shows (Kudos to anyone that can name him =))

All this **** about I know whole guilds leaving or I know 10 people who left the first 10 seconds...really? Do ya really? Because I don't see any difference in game other then I have more new people sending me tells asking me for help or questions in the last 2 weeks then the last 2 months.

I have more people jumping into my LFM when I post it and I have no shortage of LFM's to join if I want to jump in one. Is this because I am on Sarlona? is it because I post on the forums telling new players to send me a tell for help? is it because people like the new update? We DON'T know and most likely we never really will.

Like I said: exit surveys.
Also if someone says he cancelled his sub, I'm going to believe him. That does not mean he stopped playing either (this is still a f2p game).

If I see people who say they'll leave and they don't come online on my friends list anymore, well..
Noone says they'll never come back, but they did stop playing. And that's a fact.
The same goes for guildmates, people who have been online everyday, said they were leaving because of champions and I haven't seen since.

Maybe you should listen to your own quote

A lot of people leave for reasons unknown, but don't pretend like that applies to everyone, you know **** well it doesn't.

[Sehenry03]

I never spoke about numbers at all.



Like I said: exit surveys.
Also if someone says he cancelled his sub, I'm going to believe him. That does not mean he stopped playing either (this is still a f2p game).

If I see people who say they'll leave and they don't come online on my friends list anymore, well..
Noone says they'll never come back, but they did stop playing. And that's a fact.
The same goes for guildmates, people who have been online everyday, said they were leaving because of champions and I haven't seen since.

Maybe you should listen to your own quote

A lot of people leave for reasons unknown, but don't pretend like that applies to everyone, you know **** well it doesn't.

Everything you said is pretty much true...

All I am saying is that not EVERYONE that SAID they were quitting...actually did. We don't know. I KNOW some never left. Never. They stayed in game. That's only some.

As far as numbers...I never said you gave numbers but you did say A LOT of people quit and you don't know that. You are simply going off the people who SAID they were quitting which we already know is an unknowable number for us. Some did but some didn't.

I can SAY anything I want but it certainly doesn't mean I actually did it. This is an MMO. Every player in the game that types they are a supermodel is supposed to be believed? LOL that's your reasoning...they said it so I believe it.

I wasn't talking about you when I posted. You are still here and playing and trying to improve the game. You just took what I said personally and thought I was referring to you apparently.

I am simply saying NONE of us know how many people left or will leave and NONE of us know if it was truly champions that caused it. yes they can say it was the champions but what if they had already decided to quit and simply used champions as the excuse to flame on here? Again we DON'T know. You can believe everything that everyone posts but I personally believe you are smarter then that argument. Your posts tend to be well thought out but the numbers game is where people should stop trying to use there own skewed system.

[phillymiket]

Actually...no we don't. You NOR I know how many people truly left the game after this update.

No we don't know but we can apply common sense.

Common sense tells us that by first introducing Champions as quite difficult you will anger some people who can no longer play the game as it is. Given a large enough population, some of those people will leave.
Common sense also tells us that if you then dramatically roll back those changes some of the people who were excited by the change, only to have it removed, will also leave, given a large enough population.

So we can't know how many left but we can know some did.

Why this was so stupid in my book, is because of the way the possible out-comes would logically take place.
Best case DDO gains people slowly over time. There is no scenario where DDO gains many people over-night because of Champions.
Worst case DDO loses many people over-night.

This change begged for caution and restraint.
Seeing as the reward by it's very nature is slow to arrive and the price of failure potentially could arrive quickly, then common sense dictated taking a small step to test the waters before jumping in.

[Keladon]

Everything you said is pretty much true...

All I am saying is that not EVERYONE that SAID they were quitting...actually did. We don't know. I KNOW some never left. Never. They stayed in game. That's only some.

As far as numbers...I never said you gave numbers but you did say A LOT of people quit and you don't know that. You are simply going off the people who SAID they were quitting which we already know is an unknowable number for us. Some did but some didn't.

I can SAY anything I want but it certainly doesn't mean I actually did it. This is an MMO. Every player in the game that types they are a supermodel is supposed to be believed? LOL that's your reasoning...they said it so I believe it.

I wasn't talking about you when I posted. You are still here and playing and trying to improve the game. You just took what I said personally and thought I was referring to you apparently.

I am simply saying NONE of us know how many people left or will leave and NONE of us know if it was truly champions that caused it. yes they can say it was the champions but what if they had already decided to quit and simply used champions as the excuse to flame on here? Again we DON'T know. You can believe everything that everyone posts but I personally believe you are smarter then that argument. Your posts tend to be well thought out but the numbers game is where people should stop trying to use there own skewed system.

What's wrong with using "a lot"? It's not incorrect at all, it's subjective, sure, but not incorrect.

I also didn't take it personal at all, but you were adressing "a lot" (yes, there it is again) of people who were going by facts and not just what they heard.
What you're saying is based on the assumption that everybody lies (including the following bit).

"I can SAY anything I want but it certainly doesn't mean I actually did it. This is an MMO. Every player in the game that types they are a supermodel is supposed to be believed? LOL that's your reasoning...they said it so I believe it."
I'm pretty sure you know why that's a bad argument.

And yes, I'm still here, I'm someone who fights for something I like, even if that just means having a discussion on forums like this.
But leaving is however a matter of when, not if, if they keep champions in their current state.
For a game that's been released for almost 10 years now, I still feel like a beta tester too often. I know games have bugs, but there's a big difference between bugs and flawed/broken features, I don't like feeling like a guinea pig.

edit: the post above mine explains far better how I feel. Well said phillymiket.

[Sehenry03]

No we don't know but we can apply common sense.

Common sense tells us that by first introducing Champions as quite difficult you will anger some people who can no longer play the game as it is. Given a large enough population, some of those people will leave.
Common sense also tells us that if you then dramatically roll back those changes some of the people who were excited by the change, only to have it removed, will also leave, given a large enough population.

So we can't know how many left but we can know some did.

Why this was so stupid in my book, is because of the way the possible out-comes would logically take place.
Best case DDO gains people slowly over time. There is no scenario where DDO gains many people over-night because of Champions.
Worst case DDO loses many people over-night.

This change begged for caution and restraint.
Seeing as the reward by it's very nature is slow to arrive and the price of failure potentially could arrive quickly, then common sense dictated taking a small step to test the waters before jumping in.

Again what you said here makes sense. The only thing you didn't mention is IF we lost people how many were already in the process of wanting to leave?

I would argue that just by introducing a tough monster it will make people leave. In time that might be true but common sense also implies that people that were already enjoying the game ran into a wall with the champions they would post it on the forums (which happened) but would continue to play to see how it plays out.

The new WoW expansion is a LOT tougher then the last 4 expansions they have had. They did not lose people and in fact they had an uptick in sub's as people came back because the game was dumbed down after WotLK. So we need to play this out and see what happens.

I still maintain that 99% of the people who supposedly ragequit were already planning on leaving soon and just champions as the excuse so they had a reason to come on here and vent their frustrations.

[Sehenry03]

What's wrong with using "a lot"? It's not incorrect at all, it's subjective, sure, but not incorrect.

I also didn't take it personal at all, but you were adressing "a lot" (yes, there it is again) of people who were going by facts and not just what they heard.
What you're saying is based on the assumption that everybody lies (including the following bit).

"I can SAY anything I want but it certainly doesn't mean I actually did it. This is an MMO. Every player in the game that types they are a supermodel is supposed to be believed? LOL that's your reasoning...they said it so I believe it."
I'm pretty sure you know why that's a bad argument.

And yes, I'm still here, I'm someone who fights for something I like, even if that just means having a discussion on forums like this.
But leaving is however a matter of when, not if, if they keep champions in their current state.
For a game that's been released for almost 10 years now, I still feel like a beta tester too often. I know games have bugs, but there's a big difference between bugs and flawed/broken features, I don't like feeling like a guinea pig.

Well not everyone lies but I certainly don't take everything I read on the internet as truth =)

Everything you said here is pretty accurate and I would agree with most of it.

The guinea pig thing I totally understand...the problem is that DDO IS a small MMO now and the test server is WAY underutilized. With so few people actually using it its not really fair to say they should have done a lot more testing because it WAS there for testing we just chose not to get involved. We had weeks (although they could have given it a few months) to try it out and give feedback but VERY few people actually did. I personally did not.

[Keladon]

The new WoW expansion is a LOT tougher then the last 4 expansions they have had. They did not lose people and in fact they had an uptick in sub's as people came back because the game was dumbed down after WotLK. So we need to play this out and see what happens.

People came back because there was a new expansion, period.

The guinea pig thing I totally understand...the problem is that DDO IS a small MMO now and the test server is WAY underutilized. With so few people actually using it its not really fair to say they should have done a lot more testing because it WAS there for testing we just chose not to get involved. We had weeks (although they could have given it a few months) to try it out and give feedback but VERY few people actually did. I personally did not.

Agreed, that is one of the issues, I never tested champions on Lama either.
Maybe they should have done a trial run of champions on the live server? Just throwing an idea out here, I know it's probably horrible

[phillymiket]

Again what you said here makes sense. The only thing you didn't mention is IF we lost people how many were already in the process of wanting to leave?

I would argue that just by introducing a tough monster it will make people leave. In time that might be true but common sense also implies that people that were already enjoying the game ran into a wall with the champions they would post it on the forums (which happened) but would continue to play to see how it plays out.

The new WoW expansion is a LOT tougher then the last 4 expansions they have had. They did not lose people and in fact they had an uptick in sub's as people came back because the game was dumbed down after WotLK. So we need to play this out and see what happens.

I still maintain that 99% of the people who supposedly ragequit were already planning on leaving soon and just champions as the excuse so they had a reason to come on here and vent their frustrations.

I don't know about WoW but it seems to me that making an expansion tougher is a smart way to start to bump up the game difficulty.

It shows they have a plan and are thinking of long-term, real changes, not quick-fixes.

DDO could have done that. They still could.

Make the next pack, and all future packs, harder, then go back an adjust the old content, quest by quest, until you have a challenging game again.

But we went for a few lines of code and a few random tables for mob buffs applied broadly across the whole game as our fix.

I guess our solution is better in terms of cheapness.

As someone who has run businesses, a customer/client "on the edge" can be brought back.
Strangely enough, a customer who has had the worst experience, if you handle the situation properly, can turn into one of your most loyal clients!
Even more than someone who has had only "regular" experiences.
Any manager who says "oh, they were going to leave anyway" as an excuse for fumbling the handling of an angry customer is a bad manager indeed.

So no, fatalism has no place in a business. DDO makes their own bed.

Whether any individual actually stops using your business when they say they won't come back isn't the point.
The point is that you have conditions causing those feelings and inspiring the threat.
For every person vocal about something there is a dozen silently feeling the same thing.
So maybe for you, a non-share holder, it's easy to just roll the dice and say "meh, they'll be back", but for a person with interests, it's really best to take people on their word when they say they'll never spend another penny here.

[doucefeuille]

I love DDO, I first played 8 years ago! and I have no powered toon, I just make new toons no TR, no craft, no run to power, no epic etc.

I understand that champions are a very good thing for some players who want surprises and challenge, according to their own power, for those who have a powered toon, gear, knowledge etc. It's the perfect solution for them. I understand.

But there is no need to add a new difficulty for NEW players/toons nor surprise.
If you do the quest for the first time or if you've done it several months ago, you will be still surprised. No need for a champion who can one-shoot/2-shoot you and the party, no need for an extra challenge when you play permadeath. And all players need to run elite for the favor. Doing more quests in normal? You will have the reward very late as normal only gives 1/3 favor. At this point it's better to buy bags/bank/quest than having a VIP subs to open directly HE. Favor is not only fo free-TP it's also for bags and bank, one of the most important point in every game. Favor is for 32pts toons, acces to some items etc. Being not able to reach enough favor for a new/casual/permadeath-like player is not good to help them reaching the end-game and join the cohort of vets/powered-toons. And additionaly for those new/casual/permadeath-like players a quest in normal have no challenge, they have right to challenge too. And actually with champ, HH can be harder than HE pre-champ and HH with champ is not too much challenging for traps for ewample, even 2 lvl higher.

I want to thanks those vets who understand and those who propose to help to new players/toons (with or without understanding). But I dislike grouping with people who know the game well. They run because they know here the hall is empty and suddenly stop because they know here there is a trap... no need for spot skill, they are prepared just before the ambush etc. So they play too differently than I like playing, and their playing style shows me what would happen in the quest before it actually happens. I like taking my time, looking over a corner without beeing noticed by the mobs, counting them before going in fight etc.
there is also a difference of power and i feel like I'm doing nothing, just trying to follow... I learn nothing as they do all the work... it's not a funny way to play

I know, it's just MY way to play, but I know several players who prefer playing easy mode with a powered toon, some other prefer playing permadeath, some prefer playing with challenge, some prefer to craft etc.
So many differences, and each playing style need to be understood by others. Here it seems not. casual/new/permadeath-like, seems to understood, they have not claim to remove champ or to nerf them. They just ask to keep their game without champs, and let champs for the others who want CM. lots of solution was proposed by them. But lots in favor with champs are just patronizing... why??? they pay the same, they have same right and they never want to take back your toy. why do not admit they have a diffrent way to play?

Lots of people are calling for a thick box with/without champ. I do not know if it's a good way, some said there will be 2 factions of players, 2 opposed community in the game. But in fact there are already 2 communities; champ vs no champ, powered vs new/permadeath-like/casual, they are opposed here because pre-champ they already had a different way to play. But champ are just for one of these communities.
We saw lot of new players saying that champ hurt their way to play. Because they are new/permadeath-like/casual players! And the most of the people disagree with those players just CANNOT remember when they just began the game, because they now play a different game in the game. They reach a goal and they want to use it, they are right but it doesn't mean that the others players are wrong!

In the last 2 days, we saw just a few "new" players writing here, why? they said they left the game, so it's not incredible to think they have really left if they do not give their voice here.
Champ are not designed for new/permadeathlike/casual players and they have to play with them or stop playing.
Why paying for a game we do not enjoy? There are new/casual/permadeath-like VIP players, I was one. I've canceled. I still play, but since I played I have enough to buy quest pack, no need to pay a VIP to play. Since champ I cannot play the way I was used too for 8 years.

Some of you are saying that the game became easier and easier in the last 5 years.
first point : Ok, the game became easier, but for new toons it's not so easy has they think. It's soooo easy because they know the game well and have lots of TR/stuff etc. I have seen players playing always in normal before champ and been afraid of going in elite...
second point : the game beacame easier in the last 5 years. FIVE YEARS. And suddenly the game reverts the difficulty in just ONE DAY.
Third point, it's normal for an old game to become easier in the first levels especially, to attract new players and allow them to reach the end-game. The champ miss that goal.

First, champ were liked by one part of the community and disliked by the other part. Turbine tried to make everybody pleased and failed with the nerf. Now; the part who likes champ find them too weak and the part who dislikes them does not want to play anymore until they would be removed... everybody looses.

The community is already divided, the champ are here and there is no return way.
To save the new/permadeathlike/casual player, if you do not want/can to add a thick box, just give them a dedicated server without champ.
Give us our sand box so we can keep enjoy playing the game as it was, we will not disturb you anymore, we will continue to pay VIP account to turbine, and when some of us would find more challenge, they will migrate.