Monster Champion Feedback

[caberonia]

I don't know what that means. there is a lot of different opinions in this 104 page thread. from where I sit, its the same reasons given for epics. they don't want it to interfere with their rewards and leveling progression and that I disagree why elite needs to not be challenging in heroics or epics.

I saw very few complaints about EE being too hard. The majority of complaints are HE HH and EH related, and IMO any complaint of EE being too hard is silly anyway its the top of the difficulty ladder. It SHOULD be where people go for a challenge.

But the question still stands.. why add a new system when there is an existing system to do what you want. It seems odd that in order to balance difficulty they would create an entirely new system rather than use the difficulty system thats in place. Did they just want to add this new system and used difficulty balance as a reason?

Has DDO code gotten to the point that its easier to add a new system than it is to adjust an existing one, and even if so How would they expect to balance random buffs on random monsters on 4 different difficulty levels while using the same code for all? I mean the whole situation just boggles the mind as far as i'm concerned.

[phillymiket]

I think this thread explains why not heroics better than I ever could.

Unfortunately this thread explains exactly why they aren't going to take it out for Heroics:

Separating out Champion settings on Heroic and Epic levels is something we may consider for the future, but will take additional development time if we pursue this path.

They aren't because they can't.

Heroic Elite and Epic Elite are tied together. Heroic Hard and Epic Hard are tied together.

Remove one and you remove the other. Adjust one and you adjust the other.

And if they can't remove a Heroic setting in toto, without borking Epic, they certainly can't add a checkbox.

Checkboxes and fine-tuning are "back to the drawing board" type ideas and therefore I don't think they will be coming any time soon.

I think we have what we have and this is what we have.

Any suggestions beyond "bring elite up a little" or "bring hard down a little" are impossible to implement at this time.

[caberonia]

Unfortunately this thread explains exactly why they aren't going to take it out for Heroics:



They aren't because they can't.

Heroic Elite and Epic Elite are tied together. Heroic Hard and Epic Hard are tied together.

Remove one and you remove the other. Adjust one and you adjust the other.

And if they can't remove a Heroic setting in toto, without borking Epic, they certainly can't add a checkbox.

Checkboxes and fine-tuning are "back to the drawing board" type ideas and therefore I don't think they will be coming any time soon.

I think we have what we have and this is what we have.

Any suggestions beyond "bring elite up a little" or "bring hard down a little" are impossible to implement at this time.

I think you're right however my question was more to the point of why was the system designed
A. In the first place when there is an existing system of balancing difficulties
B Without the intent of targeting and being able to balance each difficulty level seperately. If the old difficulty system is all connected then why design your new system to balance difficulty with the same flaw?

In what way does attempting to balance random buffs on random mobs Using a shared formula for heroic and epic make balancing difficulty levels easier or more precise? If anything the entire system made it harder to balance the existing difficulty levels. So there is something I'm not seeing that the devs see..

[Oxarhamar]

But upping the reward AND upping the difficulty would still make EN more rewarding, wouldn't it?

Is this actually a post about just increasing the reward and not even increasing the difficulty? :P

No it's a post about the champion rewards as a chance to make EH & EE worth running again.

I did not think champs before or after the nerf added much difficulty or challenge just some random chances to get one shoted or find a wall of HP.

Everything else was meh. Still it's obvious the difficulty was increased for some even in the nerf so where is the reward?

[Keladon]

Unfortunately this thread explains exactly why they aren't going to take it out for Heroics:



They aren't because they can't.

Heroic Elite and Epic Elite are tied together. Heroic Hard and Epic Hard are tied together.

Remove one and you remove the other. Adjust one and you adjust the other.

And if they can't remove a Heroic setting in toto, without borking Epic, they certainly can't add a checkbox.

Checkboxes and fine-tuning are "back to the drawing board" type ideas and therefore I don't think they will be coming any time soon.

I think we have what we have and this is what we have.

Any suggestions beyond "bring elite up a little" or "bring hard down a little" are impossible to implement at this time.

Can Champions be changed on a difficulty basis or are they more global? Can Champion settings be changed ONLY on EE?
?

Yes, this is something that is eventually possible, though not as easily done right now as the changes this week. This is something we're likely to consider for the future, but will probably not happen Very Very Soon (unlike the first round of changes).

This statement doesn't make it sound that hard to seperate Heroic from Elite. The first changes were done without any downtime at all, so this will probably take a hotfix but looks far from impossible to do.
Also the "likely to consider" bit gives me hope they might actually do something like that, same with "not very very soon", indicating it will probably not take that long.
Or at least that's what I hope that all means.

[Oxarhamar]

Most of the quests prior to the release of the epic orchard quests do not give the same loot on EN as on EH or EE. There was already a lot of incentive to run those quests at EH or EE, but if you don't already have the better gear, you'd be probably out of luck in being able to run them if the Champions get made stronger again, especially if you don't have multiple lives under your belt.

This would further split the community into the "haves" and "have-nots". Then is always the favor issue. You can't get the favor you need on EN.

Favor is a one & done deal no more favor comes from a quest once you've run it on highest difficulty = no repeat incentives .

As for tiered loot I would love that to return as well as tradable loot. So sick of BTA garbage.

When you say most of the quests your speaking of quests from over a year ago every update this year has dropped the same loot on all difficulties.

[phillymiket]

This statement doesn't make it sound that hard to seperate Heroic from Elite. The first changes were done without any downtime at all, so this will probably take a hotfix but looks far from impossible to do.
Also the "likely to consider" bit gives me hope they might actually do something like that, same with "not very very soon", indicating it will probably not take that long.
Or at least that's what I hope that all means.

I'm hoping that's the case. :-)

I'm hoping that what the Devs take away from this thread is that their players have a vast range of gear, skill, experience, intentions and opinions, and that only by them being able to fine-tune this system will they have any hope of offering the challenge, progression and reward that is needed to retain any player be they on Korthos or running EE.

We'll see.
Things get started, then they get left kind of half done.
Maybe this is different.

Oh forgot to post this - another 7x HP Champ

Misery's Peak HE on starter island



600+ HP would take a whole lot of Burning Hands to take down ;-D

[slarden]

I just don't get it. Maybe someone can explain it.
Why add a new randomized convoluted system and apply it across the board to heroic and epic hard and elites.. when you could have simply upped the difficulty in EE using the system thats already in place for the desired increase in challenge and would not have had half the uproar in the community?

If they had simply added champs to EE or used the pre-existing difficulty system to up EE almost no one would have complained. Yet here we are..

I think they were trying to add some randomness to otherwise static dungeons.

They should have definitely started small in scope and focused on where most of the difficulty complaints were - EE higher level quests.

[slarden]

we all know the game is played with entitlement and Path of Least Resistance for better rewards. optional wont be used much and we all know that.

I wasn't saying that casualization was the only thing that led to population decline. there are other factors involved, but the trend since MOTU has been casualization, VIPS paying for both expansions and P2W as the leading reasons why. there are also a lot of in between stuff that happens every update. we always see someone disagreeing with the changes to the game and say they cancelled their sub and leave.

True, it was enlightening that many of the same people that are arguing in favor of leaving the existing champion buggy behavior as it was when U24 was released - are also saying that they wouldn't run with champions if there was a checkbox to opt out. The path of least resistance isn't limited to casual players.

"More challenge" arguments are all about making EE more exclusive like the old epics were. The old epic system was used by a very small percentage of players and most were choosing the easiest epics to get their 20 tokens for TR. One thing the difficulty system in epics did is give people a chance to learn the content at easier difficulties and step up to higher difficulties. Even before the last few updates when some easy-button builds were added, a much higher percentage of people were running EE than ran the old epics.

The days of such exclusivity will never return because it's bad for the game to make a large percentage of the player base feel like they can't succeed at the highest levels. Also, secrets are more freely shared post-U14 than they were pre-U14. I doubt either trend will reverse.

Most likely the champion system will weed out some EE soloers and that is it and most likely those players will move on to a different game or hobby. I don't think the champions will significantly impact EE groups - I noticed champions alot more when soloing than I did in a full party.

The issue of "What do I do when I am at cap and want to stay there?" still exists. The TR systems are great, but some people want to move right on to an end game when they reach cap. Or they completed the lifes they planned and want to move on to end game. These groups continue to be left out of the design decisions. The most obvious way to increase character power is through TRs especially knowing full well the level cap will be raised to 30 and make most of our existing gear obsolete.

[Aletys]

Favor is a one & done deal no more favor comes from a quest once you've run it on highest difficulty = no repeat incentives .

As for tiered loot I would love that to return as well as tradable loot. So sick of BTA garbage.

When you say most of the quests your speaking of quests from over a year ago every update this year has dropped the same loot on all difficulties.

Some favor can only be obtained on epic levels, eg: not all quests which give PDK favor are available on heroic. You can't get enough PDK favor to upgrade CitW weapons or to buy certain armors by only running on EN. Further, you say that you don't get more favor from a quest one you've run it on the highest difficulty. That's very true, but assumes everyone has already run it on the highest difficulty, and that they never TR (which causes you to lose all favor). Both assumptions are incorrect. The champion system as originally implemented would have made getting a decent amount of favor very, very difficult for players who have not already acquired the better gear. Those who are in favor of the champion system sound as if they already have their gear, and don't really care about those who don't.

The majority of the quests in the game were made prior to the past year, so yes, that is indeed most of the quests in the game. That is also where the gear needed to make it from level 1 to level 24 falls (and to a great degree to level 27). So saying that every update this year has dropped the same loot on all difficulties is really not relevant. Unless, of course, you never TR, just ETR, and you already have the gear you need.

[fmalfeas]

The issue of "What do I do when I am at cap and want to stay there?" still exists. The TR systems are great, but some people want to move right on to an end game when they reach cap. Or they completed the lifes they planned and want to move on to end game. These groups continue to be left out of the design decisions. The most obvious way to increase character power is through TRs especially knowing full well the level cap will be raised to 30 and make most of our existing gear obsolete.

Endgame can't actually be created right now, with level 30 looming. People seem to forget that we're approaching that. If they create some mega-grindy 'endgame' now, the same people demanding it will just abandon it and declare it 'worthless' the moment level 30 hits.

Now, once we have 30.../then/ an 'endgame' can be forged. Though it probably won't be as expansive as some people want. But we need to let the devs lay the groundwork, instead of howling at them for something that the game is simply not prepared for yet, and that would be 'ruined' by the upcoming cap increase anyway.

Patience, people.

[Scrabbler]

Endgame can't actually be created right now, with level 30 looming.

Yeah um, that's not true. At all. Any endgame design work they do is irrelevant to if the level limit is 28, 30, or even 10. Up until the half-baked TR system was added, they had a sane endgame design that kept working no matter what the level cap.

Plus, level 30 is not "looming". If they're smart, they'll give up on 30 and leave it at wherever it is (28).

[slarden]

Endgame can't actually be created right now, with level 30 looming. People seem to forget that we're approaching that. If they create some mega-grindy 'endgame' now, the same people demanding it will just abandon it and declare it 'worthless' the moment level 30 hits.

Now, once we have 30.../then/ an 'endgame' can be forged. Though it probably won't be as expansive as some people want. But we need to let the devs lay the groundwork, instead of howling at them for something that the game is simply not prepared for yet, and that would be 'ruined' by the upcoming cap increase anyway.

Patience, people.

"Howling" is certainly an extreme exaggeration.

Whether the devs are ready for an end game or not - many players have been ready for quite some time. That's not a howl or complaint - just an observation.

[slarden]

Yeah um, that's not true. At all. Any endgame design work they do is irrelevant to if the level limit is 28, 30, or even 10. Up until the half-baked TR system was added, they had a sane endgame design that kept working no matter what the level cap.

Plus, level 30 is not "looming". If they're smart, they'll give up on 30 and leave it at wherever it is (28).

This! I would rather see the level cap stay at 28 for an extended time so they can start focusing on end game.

[Floggs]

If it was your intention to stop people from playing solo , you win.

I quit.

[Wh070aa]

New idea.

You make new difficulty, above elite, that has all monsters as champions, and that is scaled as raid (12 players, no change for shortmaning, or just maximum available scaling so less work), before the champion bonuses.
Have it same rewards as elite for all reasons, exempt extra champion chests. Maybe add some new baubles for champion chests, or mythic items can drop there with extremely small chance.

Then remove champions from other difficulties, maybe leave them in epic elite or something.

This way its both challenging, rewarding, and not punishing. You can still run elite quests, and get gear, favor and stuff and you can still challenge yourself with 1 shot death champions, for some reward.

Also inflate damage and hp by 400% on the difficulty, so people can enjoy it more.

I am completely serous about this. We need the extreme challenge for veterans, so they stop whining, and we don't need to punish newer players, and lock them put of getting good rewards, and fast leveling.

[Oxarhamar]

Some favor can only be obtained on epic levels, eg: not all quests which give PDK favor are available on heroic. You can't get enough PDK favor to upgrade CitW weapons or to buy certain armors by only running on EN. Further, you say that you don't get more favor from a quest one you've run it on the highest difficulty. That's very true, but assumes everyone has already run it on the highest difficulty, and that they never TR (which causes you to lose all favor). Both assumptions are incorrect. The champion system as originally implemented would have made getting a decent amount of favor very, very difficult for players who have not already acquired the better gear. Those who are in favor of the champion system sound as if they already have their gear, and don't really care about those who don't.

The majority of the quests in the game were made prior to the past year, so yes, that is indeed most of the quests in the game. That is also where the gear needed to make it from level 1 to level 24 falls (and to a great degree to level 27). So saying that every update this year has dropped the same loot on all difficulties is really not relevant. Unless, of course, you never TR, just ETR, and you already have the gear you need.

It's completely relivent to the current game where there is little to no incentive to repeat Quests on EE.

Those older quests had a gear incentive the newer content has none.

TR to reset your favor is irrelivent so there is only incentive to run a EE quest once per life for favor if it doesn't have a Herioc equivilent.

What I am talking about is an incentive to run EE after bravery bonus meaning it's already been run once for favor. There is no incentive to return.

EE once had an incentive for some quests through tradable Tiered loot that has been scraped. Champions could take up the slack if they had a proper reward system.

I'm neither for nor against the exsistance of Champions in Epic levels. I did not find them challenging. I did find random Gaint meat bags of HP to be annoying but, that's not challenge and I did find a few instances where a champion might one shot a player but, that's wasn't very challenging either no more challenging than when Shiradi was giving adrenaline at random to mobs. What I want is a reason to face them instead of just invis by or choosing a different difficulty. make them worth bothering with.

[Edwardt]

Unfortunately this thread explains exactly why they aren't going to take it out for Heroics:

[...]

They aren't because they can't.

Checkboxes and fine-tuning are "back to the drawing board" type ideas and therefore I don't think they will be coming any time soon.

I think we have what we have and this is what we have.

Right now I think the heroic part is quite fine with the changes. I didn't checked the epic, maybe in a few weeks.

Earlier I wrote 'no thanks' to the 'Tomb of the Tormented'. We couldn't resist to do it anyway, but as suspected:

jpg[/IMG] worg champ with 720 hp and extra damage

It took aditional 40 min and countless rats to take him out in this already exhausting quest

[Sehenry03]

98% of those arguments are moot if speaking of only EE. Which still begs the question why roll this across Heroics and EH when EE is where the greatest challenge should be anyway. And why not use the pre-existing difficulty system? Why add a new system when there is a already a system in place for what you are wanting to accomplish.

Well the Dev's already stated that they have further plans for champions and that system. I am guessing this is just 1 implementation with it and that it is more of a test to see how it does before they go further with the plans they had.

And as to doing more testing on Lammania...no that's not gonna work here. To few players actually use Lammania to get ANY kind of accurate readings from so they have to put it on live at some point and then fix it as they go along.

I wish people would STOP saying that players left because of this or that or are leaving because of this or that...you DON'T know. NO ONE knows not even DDO 100%. People leave for a lot of reasons so stop acting like you KNOW its because of lag or because the game is to hard or to easy. Make an educated guess but stop attacking other people because they disagree with you.

And as for the word "entitlement"? It accurately describes WAY to many people who feel that they should be able to complete Elite quests with minimal gear and/or skill. I don't CARE if its Heroic or Epic...Elite is still ELITE. it implies ultimate difficulty only achievable by the few who have the best gear/skill to do it. Stop feeling like DDO owes you free elite completion for free favor/TP's. They don't. It should be HARD...no SUPER hard to achieve. Yes they should up hard difficulty using common sense for the people that want a better challenge then normal but ELITE is not owed to you just because it was easy in the past. You don't leave something broken...you find it and fix it. It needs to be fixed. It doesn't matter how many past lives you want. They are optional. Don't say you NEED past lives to compete. You aren't competing with anyone. You should be working with them. PL's are a crutch at times because people think they NEED them to make a build viable. Gear is important. Skill is important. PL's are a luxury that makes your life easier but is in NO way required. I know a lot of First/Second lifers that do just fine in raids. You want the ultimate commando godlike build that lets you kill the person next to you with your hair? Great but its not a necessity. You could take a first life toon playing Ginger's druid build and it is quite viable to do well in raids at any level.

And get off the check box idea. You want a quest with no check box? Fine do it Turbine but remove any favor/TP's they get if that box is not checked.

You wanna leave because you don't like the fact champions are added? Fine its your account (but can I have your stuff?) you are the one that makes ALL decisions with it. OR...and hear me out...OR you join a LOT of well geared vets who are MORE then willing to help as needed to GET you the gear needed to solo your own Elite quests. Earn that distinction instead of feeling you are owed it. I have been grouping with a new player who has an Arty and a semi vet who is new to my server and I have been getting them tons of favor/TP's/gear while I TR my druid a few times. I am more then happy to invite them and they can have any gear that drops. The great thing is...if I am not on they don't mind playing Normal or Hard...they don't feel they are "entitled" for free Elite completion.

I see very few TRUE newer players complaining about champs. I see mainly Vet's that are upset because the game isn't easy mode (although it is again with the nerfs to champions). Stop saying new players hate this system and will leave. You DON'T know. I DON'T know. All I know is that the ones I am playing with right now could care LESS about the champions. They learned to kill them first and the monk is learning to trip them. Whats sad is that the new players are learning how to handle them better then the vet's because the vets feel the game should still be the same easy mode walk through.

Now again...if ANYONE is on Sarlona. And you are close to level of my Druid who is currently 8 or my Arty who is currently 6 send me a tell. Send a tell to anyone on my sig and I will happily help you to get yourself geared for Elites including how to deal with the champions on elite.

If you are gonna quit the game because you are mad..then quit and leave the boards so the rest of us can help Turbine make this system as good as a lot of us think it can be.

I will be on tonight around 7pm PST for anyone who is in the 5-8 range on Sarlona. I will be running the Bloody Crypt as well as the rest of my saga 3bc quests and ANYONE in that level range is welcome =)

[phillymiket]

Right now I think the heroic part is quite fine with the changes. I didn't checked the epic, maybe in a few weeks.

Earlier I wrote 'no thanks' to the 'Tomb of the Tormented'. We couldn't resist to do it anyway, but as suspected:



It took aditional 40 min and countless rats to take him out in this already exhausting quest

What is disturbing about this whole thing isn't as much the Champions when they work.

Working Chaampions are fine. It's stuff like that rat or the 600+ HP Korthos denizens.

It shows a "Who cares if we break some stuff, we are doing it anyway" attitude that explains why this game is so broken.