about update 25

[Postumus]

I think it's being a bit hyperbolic ....

How long have you been reading these forums? It's nothing BUT hyperbole 'round these parts.

[Hendrik]

The next next update.

(So excited about ToEE.)

Sev~

We all excited about ToEE!

Like HH you have another very unique opportunity here. Take full advantage of it! Please!

Any teasers you can share about ToEE?

Do you guys have an actual copy of the Module in the office you are looking at?

Do you need one?

[mkmcgw17]

Fragarach is a fun sword in the various literature... but if we're going for named swords like that though can we also get Memory, Sorrow & Thorn please?

Que the Music.Gotta get ready. Storm bringer's coming its time to die. Where's that CD its a Deep Purple morning. May as well hit the Rainbow too. Heh heh I'm old. Inhaling noise followed by cough.

[vengfarga]

They are between a rock and a hard place, Ranged is already an effective, end game EE viable play style. Furyshot Monkchers and Shuricannon builds already deal out massive damage via extreme proc rates of affixes, while they take little incoming damage due to kiting.

Meanwhile the melee focused players managed to get 120% MP halved... leaving the Dev's no room to give ranged power more than token increases or increases with some sorts of balance restrictions (like limited application of RP for example not applying it to Manyshot or 10kS) or some way to reduce the kiting advantage... Which will be viewed as nerfs.

I'm not surprised they are quiet about it, I suspect some of them are wishing it never got addressed in the first place.

How happy are you guys going to be with 10 or 15 RP? token amounts that leave the balance mostly where it currently is?

Happy with 10 -15 RP? No, wouldn't be happy ('n yes, I have read the whole thread.)
However, this 'ranged are already ming-tacular' attitude is simply not accurate. SOME ranged builds are pretty darned awesome right now ... but most are not 'n are in need of some love. As far as I can make out, our current Devs' master plan is to make as many builds viable as possible.

Ranged toons I see as in need of a big ol' boost:
* Xbow Arties
* Rog Mechs
* Pure (or nearly) ranged Rangers
* Pure (or nearly) bow kensai

Solution? Stack 'em up with Ranged Power ... but put it out of the reach of the heavily multi-classed 'uber-builds' that currently dominate range and don't need boosting.
+ For Arties - put it in T5 and Capstone, that commitment cancels other 'hardcore' options for many.
+ For Rgrs - T4,5 & Capstone of Deepwood Sniper - a pure (or nearly) Rgr will have the AP free to advance AA & DWS. An Elf AA wouldn't even have the option.
+ For Rogs - T4, 5 & Capstone - a huge AP investment in Xbows for multi-class and not useful to other pure rogs.
+ For Ftrs - Capstone. The kensai tree feels like it needs some love in general and I've never used it. Maybe a multi-selector between RP and Centred?

Possible new synergies from this? Prolly, Artie/Rog/Something ... but considering how similar they are, it's hardly an unreasonable mix.

[Mryal]

Our current plan is to have this for next update.

Sev~

Any class revamps on this update? Say, druids maybe? 3rd tree? Prioritize finishing up classes that dont yet have 3 trees maybe?

[Angelic-council]

I like the new idea in ToEE. It's what DDO needs right now. Most importantly, crafting. I would love to see more crafting mechanics. Just like thunder forge, except you can craft every piece of gear... and they should have set bonus.

[barecm]

Yep there is a lot of discontent that ranged can kite with reduced risk than melee and the TOP DPS ranged builds keep the other options from being buffed due to fear of making TOP builds more powerful.

I actually heard a player say in EE MOD the other day "My Paladin solo's EE faster and easier than my Monkcher ever did." This was a player I've known to run on a Monkcher since the enhancement pass.


While Monchers and Shuricannons may not need much help the rest of the classes could use a buff.

I've been running an EE on various full repeater Artificer hybrid builds (for different Pastlives) since U18 and majority of my ranged DPS comes from heavily multi-classing. I'm capable of holding my own soloing whatever but, only through extreme min/max, forced class splits, fine tuned gear, and lots of experiance with the type of build. enter the DC caster, Hold & Burst Nuker, Paladin, Swash, Monkcher, Cannon, Druid Wolf, even the l now less popular Centered Kensei with similar gear and the only thing I have left is my knowledge of how to play my build to its peak performance or just let these guys take the brunt of the Agro then pick things off of them.

I agree with this to a point. I have been running ranged since I started playing at launch. I have to say that ranged combat is in a lot better shape than it used to be. Howerver, I do disagree with most folks when it comes to the risk reward statements. All toons can kite... melee and ranged. Spell casters do much more damage with even better defenses than bow users. Ranged combat is still the bane of DDO programmers for whatever reason you want to believe. The bottom line is that it is not nearly as affective as melee and spell casting and needs help. In particular, the ranger class, Shiradi ED, and Deepwood Enhancements.

[Spekdah_NZ]

It's not helpful when everyone talks about different stuff.

Permanent ranged builds there are currently are typically:
1. Monkcher - any split with 10k Stars, Manyshot and IPS that uses a bow
Current state: Absolutely fine, arguably OP in terms of burst DPS (Boss-Killer).

2. Shuriken Thrower - High Dex, Doubleshot, Shuriken Expertise, 10k Stars
Current state: Absolutely fine, one of the best trash-killers due to high attack rate + mortal fear and very good DPS beside that.

3. Pure Ranger, ranged combat only
Current state: Still bad, was always bad and I personally don't see the point in making it viable, the DDO ranger model of mainly TWF + ranged combat as a tool is completely fine IMO.

4. Artificers
Current state: I have no idea, I never played one. From what I've seen from others their ranged damage is in need of help.


I think instead of putting unneeded ranged power for everyone out there, they should continue with their class balance and give ranged power to the classes that actually need it.
Monkchers and shuriken throwers certainly don't need more power.

When I first started to play DDO, I tried to build the classic Fighter/Rogue with ranged SA damage. I realised how bad it was just switching to a 2 handed weapon. Be nice if this classic build was viable and not sub par.

[poltt48]

So what class is getting updated in U25? I am guessing a ranged class since they putting out ranged power but witch one arti or ranger. Arti by far needs more work then ranger but have a feeling going to be ranger getting upgraded so monkchers can be more powerful.

[AbyssalMage]

Ranged toons I see as in need of a big ol' boost:
* Xbow Arties
* Rog Mechs
* Pure (or nearly) ranged Rangers
* Pure (or nearly) bow kensai

Although I agree with you, Rog Mech's just sounds funny to me
A nearly pure ranged Ranger is a Tempest Trapmonkey
Please no, Kensai drives me crazy. Let them have their melee fun. But for "balance" I will go for it

Solution? Stack 'em up with Ranged Power ... but put it out of the reach of the heavily multi-classed 'uber-builds' that currently dominate range and don't need boosting.
+ For Arties - put it in T5 and Capstone, that commitment cancels other 'hardcore' options for many.
+ For Rgrs - T4,5 & Capstone of Deepwood Sniper - a pure (or nearly) Rgr will have the AP free to advance AA & DWS. An Elf AA wouldn't even have the option.
+ For Rogs - T4, 5 & Capstone - a huge AP investment in Xbows for multi-class and not useful to other pure rogs.
+ For Ftrs - Capstone. The kensai tree feels like it needs some love in general and I've never used it. Maybe a multi-selector between RP and Centred?

Possible new synergies from this? Prolly, Artie/Rog/Something ... but considering how similar they are, it's hardly an unreasonable mix.

Placing anything in T5 offers no solution; that only requires character level 12 and 5 class levels(?). If you are looking at making people commit while giving noticeable power without unbalancing, it needs to be placed in Cores, period. Cores 1, 3 (10 points?), and 6 (20 points?) are very easy to unlock and work with easy splashing. The remaining 3 cores is where the power should be added. You can't have a 12 monk/12 Ranger so placing a theoretical 100 range power in the 4th (level 12) or 5th (level 18) core in both tree's ensures no player could take both. Placing them in the lower cores or any T4/T5 enhancement guarantees you have a balance issue.

Deepwood Sniper currently is more powerful on a pure/nearly Ranger (15 Ranger/5 X). I know people get all excited about Slayer Arrows but a guildy recently converted me to DWS and the sustained DPS is noticeable; especially with the HP bloated NPC's of EE. Burst DPS is better in AA (or any deep splash, especially if you also have 10k stars). Its a trade-off. Not sure Turbine wants to mess with that.

There will always be players looking for the best synergy. As soon as the revamp for AC PRR/MRR was revealed, players were already figuring out how to abuse the system. Turbine even placed artificial caps on MRR because they (almost) realized the Pandora's Box they were releasing.

[barecm]

Our current plan is to have this for next update.

Sev~

Still expecting the ranged/ranger pass for Update 25.... I hope this is not pushed back yet again.

[barecm]

Can we get an answer on U25 and the ranged pass?

[Sharktopus]

Deepwood Sniper currently is more powerful on a pure/nearly Ranger (15 Ranger/5 X). I know people get all excited about Slayer Arrows but a guildy recently converted me to DWS and the sustained DPS is noticeable; especially with the HP bloated NPC's of EE. Burst DPS is better in AA (or any deep splash, especially if you also have 10k stars). Its a trade-off. Not sure Turbine wants to mess with that.

This. Have a friend who plays a deepwoods kensei (12rgr/8ftr) who keeps pace with any of my monkcher builds. Very raid capable against bosses. And he tends to stand still and deliver a lot of killing blows while I hop around like a lizard on speed. He's missing 10K, but has something like 50% rolling double shot. He goes far enough into AA to pick up some DR beaters and force arrows. Unbridled fury with sniper shot is just as good, if not better than slayer shot, if you're picking one or the other.

Can we get an answer on U25 and the ranged pass?

From what I've pieced together, the pass won't be a blanket for all ranged combat. As it stands right now, Heavy repeater >* heroic, where as bow use sucks til about lvl 16 and doesn't really shine without destinies. Repeaters tend to fall off in epics unless the player really knows what they're doing, where bow users rule the roost.

What I'm thinking is the ranged pass will be more to bring xbow and longbow in line with each other, rather than just adding or removing raw damage from one or the other.

[horriblescarz]

Our current plan is to have this for next update.

Sev~

i hope the mech tree will get ranged power also.

[barecm]

Well disappointed again. Ranger gets bumped for rogue. So, the rift continues between ranged combat and everyone else.

[IronClan]

Furyshot is still OP and Monkcher still one of the best builds in the game.

I often wonder if these ranged players are deliberately trying to deceive the Developers, or just completely unaware of the real game?

[slarden]

Furyshot is still OP and Monkcher still one of the best builds in the game.

I often wonder if these ranged players are deliberately trying to deceive the Developers, or just completely unaware of the real game?

There are ranged builds that suck really bad too such as 20 AA ranger. It's possible to buff ranged-focus rangers without buffing monkchers, but first Turbine has to accept that the AA tree shouldn't even count as a class tree because it's fully available to 3 races with 0 ranger levels.

[slarden]

Well disappointed again. Ranger gets bumped for rogue. So, the rift continues between ranged combat and everyone else.

To be fair, they were simply choosing between 2 sub-par builds and ranger is immensely more complicated to deal with because of the racial AA tree and they have to be careful about improving some builds that already really good.

Rogue is just easier to deal with at the moment and there isn't an abundance with over-powered builds using rogue levels.

[Wipey]

Then maybe people should play ranged builds that work ?
What's the "ideal" here anyway. Pure ranger in shiradi with 200 prr and Manyshot toggle farting 4 arrows all the time ? Preferrably with damage compared to "in your face" melees ?
I personally would never trade "melee plus ranged" gameplay on a ranger.

Or it's the same complaint as "hey my 12/6/2 Toaster shiradi is so bad at instakilling".

[slarden]

Then maybe people should play ranged builds that work ?
What's the "ideal" here anyway. Pure ranger in shiradi with 200 prr and Manyshot toggle farting 4 arrows all the time ? Preferrably with damage compared to "in your face" melees ?
I personally would never trade "melee plus ranged" gameplay on a ranger.

Or it's the same complaint as "hey my 12/6/2 Toaster shiradi is so bad at instakilling".

I think that is their complaint - they are forced to play ranged builds that work since 20 AA ranger sucks so bad in comparison.