u24 (r2) Quests feedback

[Scrabbler]

Based on round 2 of Lammania u24 preview.


Summaries

• Three dungeons is too few for a pack; players will expect at least some kind of capstone, both for gameplay and to close up a story. The previous two Madness packs were 450 TP and had 3 basic dungeons + 1 capstone... that's about as minimal as a pack should be.
  
  
• Palace of Stone: Well, the terrain looks decent (not a rehash of other textures). But the combat is very lacking and the puzzles or weirdness-gameplay are completely absent. (These are the same problems as in the previous Orlassk dungeon, Lord Of Stone).
  
  
• Terminal Delirium: Aside from some big bugs, pretty good. But many people will be annoyed by the special requirements (which can be legitimately be unfair to some players)
  
  
• Fashion Madness: A nice starting concept, which fades to simplified repetition of older quests. Poor combat pacing, no traps puzzles or gameplay weirdness.
  
  
• Mask of Deception: Nice looking place, not enough enemy dialog, jerky item-retrieval mechanics.

[Scrabbler]

Palace- Blatant Problems

• From the main central platform, if you run directly towards one of the 3 doors you'll move faster than the walkway appears, getting in front of it, and then sealed inside when it forms.
  
  
• In the first battle of the Museum room, one of the stone enemies will frequently spawn stuck in a wall. It can't be targetted or attacked, although some spells can cause damage (eventually allowing you to progress).
  
  
• The rolling boulders use two LOD models for when they are nearby and far away. The low-detail model has a much smaller radius than the high-detail one, causing a bad transition.
  
  
• Hirelings think they can fight rolling boulders.

Palace Feedback

• The combat is really lacking in complexity and basic challenge. The standard enemy here is a CR 14 Animated Stone; it should be at least CR 18 on Heroic Normal.
  
  
• Rest Shrine: There are 3 sections you can do in any order, but only one of them has a shrine. So having foreknowledge to do that section first can be fairly important. It'd be better if the shrine was on the central starting platform, but only spawned after you had completed one of the 3 sections. (Unimportant)
  
  
• In the last boss fight, it's easy to separate the Daelkyrs from his minions just by standing on the far walls of the room; they don't aggro from the same distances.
  
  
• I can't even remember if the boss Daelkyr images have any special powers. Nothing noticeable... fighting them is probably easier than a red-named Medusa.
  
  
• There's nothing to do in here except kill every monster, push every button, and carry 3 keys when you come to them.
  
  
• Seeing that big gargoyle and then not getting to fight it was a disappointment.
  
  
• It's surprising that the Quarterstaffs held by the Medusai in here don't look the same as the Bone Crusher item found in here.
  
  
• The giant missed opportunity in both this dungeon and the other Orlassk quest is the lack of any weird combat requirements. In both cases you're dealing with a super-powerful insane being that doesn't want to put full effort into killing you. That's a fine excuse to have fights that involve weird fun conditions that wouldn't happen in a "realistic" battle.
  
  
• For examples, here are some of the fun weird things that could happen (all at the same time as fighting monsters)
  • Bowling with giant pins and boulders
  • A game of matching tile colors on the floor, chosen by which square you pulled the boss to.
  • An area with all lava floor, but you get wands that spawn large stones you can walk on. (They expire after ~3 minutes)
  • Big meteors fall from the ceiling, and you must break them with special rocks.
  • A purple worm (made of rock)
  • etc etc. Just 1-2 weird things like that would be good.

[Scrabbler]

Fashion- Blatant Problems

• The Philiarn Guard in the first room can attack you, even though nothing "weird" has happened yet.
  
  
• In the attack on the fashion show, monsters can easily cause Dungeon Alert. It should never be possible to get Dungeon Alert above green unless you leave monsters behind without killing them.
  
  
• If you leave the boss room, you can't get back in to complete. Most dungeons have the door open after a while with no players there (maybe healing the boss at the same time).

Fashion feedback

• After the fashion show is over, the rest of the dungeon is just like a weak rehash of bits of previous dungeons. You start in the Undermine room, move to tunnels of Fear Factory, and finish with the boss room of Missing. All of those pieces are simpler than their originals.
  
  
• To add variety and a sense of progression, I suggest adding a lot of minibosses. Maybe 5 of them... giant versions of Tharak dogs, Taken, Oozes, Flesh Golem, etc... all wearing a fancy hat.
  
  
• If you don't stay right by the runway, it's easy for some monsters to get lost out there in the big room. Hard to hunt them down in all that space. Probably monsters should visit Yaulthoon if they don't see anyone to fight.
  
  
• Monsters here drop empty collectible bags.
  
  
• Sometimes the specators won't leave.
  
  
• Sometimes a fashion model will fight the monsters in unarmed combat.
  
  
• The Elder Flesh Render at the end of the courtyard attack isn't very big. He has room to be twice normal height (easily).
  
  
• Fashion Madness should include an armor glamer item as a reward. Or a bikini-skirt Outfit. Or something fashion-oriented.
  
  
• I strongly suggest adding a few Drop-On-Exit named robes around the tunnels. Those items would have colorful effects, and provide immunity to several crowd control attacks of Chaos Beholders. Of course those items would be extremely colorful, so that players are encouraged to put on a fashion show of their own during the boss fight.

[Scrabbler]

Mask of Deception

• If the White Mask were an item in your inventory, players wouldn't be tempted to recall and re-enter in order to win quickly and easily (at the cost of an XP penalty).
  
  
• Re-entering or Dimension-Dooring would work if killing the Archwizard wasn't a required objective.
  
  
• Since killing the Archwizard is a required objective, it should be listed under the required objectives.
  
  
• The narration for meeting the Archwizard can still play if he's already been killed.
  
  
• When you complete the quest, the final treasure chest spawns behind you out of view.
  
  
• It looks bad to use perpendicular map edges in forest areas.
  
  
• The Dimensional Anchor makes sense, although it's odd the effect doesn't extend out very far.
  
  
• It would be neat if players wearing the white mask would get bonus extra aggro from every cultist.
  
• Players should be able to keep some of those special masks and daggers for their own use. But it's understandable you'd want to save those for a later adventure.
  
  
• It'd be fun if an enemy wizard in the courtyard could summon a phantasmal dragon. That'd give players another fun dragon battle, without "really" meeting a dragon in the story.
  
  
• It'd be fun if players had an opportunity to attack an extra-hard enemy leader who was not in the way of completing the objective (like what happens in the Drow city)
  
  
• That's a hilarious amount of inflation on beer prices. The cultist's security protocols are also comical.

[Scrabbler]

Terminal Delirium- Blatant Problems

• If you die and rez, you lose Stone / Eye mode and can't get it back until you touch the entry door.
  
  
• More than once, chunks of text refer to the "planes of Xoriat, Eberron, and Khyber". Eberron and Khyber aren't separate planes; they are sections of the same plane (along with Siberys).
  
  
• Players in Stone mode aren't immune to Petrification attacks. There's even narration in a miniboss fight (Indara) that claims you're immune.

Terminal Delirium Feedback

• On the plus side, this is the only 1 of the 3 new quests that includes any weird gameplay.
  
  
• When the choice is between DR 10/Adamantine and 25 Spellpower, that's not a choice. Only one of those is at all helpful.
  The Stone/Eye choice could be more intersting if they had other effects, like immunity to petrification, a chance to absorb beholder rays, +4 bludgeon meleepower, prr, Spot, etc.
  
  
• After a mirror / balloon / tile mode is removed, you don't get your stone/eye graphic back (although the buff stays).

Ballooning:

• Looking straight up / down works poorly with this chasecam setup, so situations which depend on that are less enjoyable.
  
  
• Being a little bit fatter and wobbly doesn't make someone think "He looks like a balloon". Maybe try a balloon shape over your head (like a pumpkin mask)
  
  
• In the balloon section, it's often helpful to use a pet / hireling to turn the rerouting switches. Because hirelings teleport to you, they can get up there without being in balloon mode, so they can quickly run around the corner and do a valve before you reach it yourself.
  
  
• These Green Rafter Keys seem pointless. Are they only for people with 6 strength?
  
  
• The Balloon navigation would be more fun if it used quasi-hitpoints instead of real hitpoints (and real death). Example of how that would work:
  When you get Balloon Mode, it gives you 10 stacks of Balloon essence. The hp damage from trap blades is greatly reduced, but hitting a blade drains 1d4 Balloon essence. When Balloon essence is gone, there's a POP animation and you teleport back to the start. That way would mean that people can't rely on hitpoints, healing, or reflex to get through the balloon traps... they have to do it "right", in a way thats the same for all kinds of character. And messing up doesn't cost a death penalty for you or XP penalty for the party. (I don't recommend taking the time to make this change)

Mirror

• The mirror debuff is really harsh on melee characters. A Champion Gargoyle can hit for 600 damage... non-Epic. At least there aren't Beholders in this little room.
  
  
• It's a real good thing that your Reflection NPC doesn't die at zero hp, and can tank the monsters indefinitely.
  
  
• The decorative tapestries and even walls are a big problem for fighting inside the reflection room. They go between you and the chasecam, so you can't see the monsters or even yourself. There's whole sections of the room (like behind the bed) where I can't go because I'll be blind.

Tiles

• The tile section is the only part with no weird penalties to your combat ability, and it also contains the fewest and weakest monsters. That's not good.
  
  
• It's pretty surprising that attacking the Cannith Crystal (if you can't use Charisma) doesn't let it fight back. I had expected it to morph into a Warforged Monk with a shiny blue skin.
  
  
• Ghost of Knizzleknack has no immunity to critical hits. All ghosts should be immune to critical hits.
  
  
• Ghost of Knizzleknack has an anti-magic field. Knizzleknack never had an anti-magic field when alive, so it is strange that he'd gain it in death.
  
  
• Interestingly, Ghost of Knizzleknack can give you negative levels both from a ray and from biting. The bite has a saving throw, though, so it'll almost never work.
  
  
• Aside from negative levels, Ghost of Knizzleknack has very little ability to hurt anyone- and there's no other monster in the area.
  
  
• Slightly disappointing that the bonus room is still there, but has nothing in it. (There could at least be a trap or a message)

Dancing

• The concept and appearance of a dance battle is good.
  
  
• The granting of 1-2 bonus chests for finishing before thresholds doesn't work out, because the dance battle is so extremely unbalanced. Depending on your kinds of characters, the battle is almost always super-easy or nearly unbeatable.
  
  
• I strongly suggest letting players click on the dance tiles to randomly activate /dance or /dance2. Not only is that a better user-interface in general, but it will also allow hirelings and wolves to help dance.
  
  
• It's not apparent that you need to open the objectives panel to see the Humiliation score. Most groups will have an easy time and don't need to see the Humiliation number... the main function of seeing it is to learn that you're in a bad way and have basically no chance to win.
  
  
• It is bad to have more monsters on Hard/Elite. They already have better stats, and that should be enough.
  
  
• I very strongly suggest that each time they score a Humiliation kill, one of the dancing monsters changes behavior and becomes willing to spend time fighting instead of dancing (only if attacked). This is to create an escape valve for players who lack the specific abilities needed to win the dance battle. I understand that anyone can win the dance easily if you grab a Bard Hireling, but you shouldn't have to.
  
  
• It would be a lot of work to make a truly good dance battle system, and I don't recommend making that investment. But let's talk about the problem a little. If you have a long-term mass CC effect then the challenge is 100% trivial. That can be done by any Bard, and many Wizards or Clerics as well. Without long-term CC, you need to get AOE effects that can kill a line of 6 monsters at the same time. Many players can do that, but many can't. If you only do damage to one creature at a time, then you need to kill each in under 1.5 seconds in order to have a chance... and that'd still be a slow slog to the finish.
  
  
• Yeah sorry, I'm muting it every time. Maybe the Mimic's voice should be changed to squeaky gibberish. I could almost imagine you getting in trouble for it.
  
  
• I think there are better-looking animations the Beholders could use to dance. Maybe the one where they extend the eyestalks in a ring and puff out one at a time.
  
  
• The Medusa dancers would look better if 30-50% of them used the older Medusa skin texture, which was human flesh instead of lizard scales.
  
  
• The Medusai won't attack, but the Beholders will. That's probably because Beholders have reactive eye rays that trigger when someone damages them (such as the Alpha Strike below 20% hp). They can even cast AMF on a single person.

[Seikojin]

Not trying to steal thunder, just cross linking so feedback is shared.

[Scrabbler]

Fashion:

• Yeah, it's quite annoying having to hunt down monsters standing at far-flung parts of the courtyard. They should be attacking me, not hiding around the grounds. It can take 8 minutes to get them all.
  
  Perhaps if the monsters can't see an opponent, they should strut the catwalk.

Terminal Delirium:

• Your mirror image holds weapons while doing emotes. You do not hold weapons during those same emotes.

Palace of Stone:

• The end boss is a Human. He should be an Evil Outsider.

[Scrabbler]

Mask of Deception

• On Epic Normal, Mask of Deception is CR 30. I did it with a new level 20 Barb, using level 11-14 items, without spending any ED points, and not using the Cracking Attack cheat. I also never equipped a mask to hide from enemies.
  
  It wasn't particularly challenging to finish like that; I just had to make sure to avoid fighting more than 5-8 guys at once, and to kill the boss without his friends around. I know this problem with imbalanced difficulty isn't due specifically to the contents of a single dungeon, but it's something to keep in mind.