THF, SWF, and TWF

[Clemeit]

Two-handed fighting:
Bonus to speed (or glancing blows/off-hand attacks):
Adds glancing blows to attack sequence
+50% glancing blow damage
+9% glancing blow triggering weapon effect
Bonus to damage:
+10 melee power

Single-weapon fighting:
Bonus to speed (or glancing blows/off-hand attacks):
+30% combat style attack speed
Bonus to damage:
+10 melee power
+50% appropriate ability score to damage

Two-weapon fighting:
Bonus to speed (or glancing blows/off-hand attacks):
80% off-hand attack
Bonus to damage:
NONE

Is there a reason Two-weapon fighting is lacking? No melee power? No additional damage based on appropriate ability?

Rationale? Thoughts?

[Toro12]

Being able to hold a secondary effect weapon in your offhand that applies to your main weapon like stunning , deception, ect.
TWF was king for so long coupled with the problems they have with attack speed modifiers leads me to believe they just kicked the can down the road a bit on TWF getting it to scale better like they did with THF and the new hotness that is SWF.

Now think about us poor monks that don't even get the offhand weapon effects bonus from TWF.

[Grailhawk]

Being able to hold a secondary effect weapon in your offhand that applies to your main weapon like stunning , deception, ect.
TWF was king for so long coupled with the problems they have with attack speed modifiers leads me to believe they just kicked the can down the road a bit on TWF getting it to scale better like they did with THF and the new hotness that is SWF.

Now think about us poor monks that don't even get the offhand weapon effects bonus from TWF.

10% Alacrity, 100% off hand damage, and off hand double strike = to main hand double strike, handwrap monks are fine with out the extra effects, and I would trade effects for those bonues on a TWF any day.

[Dalsheel]

off hand double strike = to main hand double strike

Who told you that? There is no way this is true. I'm playing pure monks ever since monk class came out, I would have noticed such a huge boost.

Can we have a DEV comment on this please?

Also, you forgot to mention unarmed monks have the worst critical profile in the game and NO WAY to improve it, you know, like everyone else does nowadays. Pulverizer (works even with Bows if Morphic Arrows secondary imbue is active), Celestial Champion, Swashbuckling, Keen Edge, Ninja Spy capstone, Holy Sword (even works with bows ffs) and maybe a few more abilities I'm forgetting atm... none of these works on handwraps.

Two Weapon Fighting needs to be updated. Shield Fighting and Single Weapon Fighting outDPSing Two Weapon Fighting is a joke, and needs fixxed A.S.A.P.

Oh, and btw, there's no ability pre-req for either S&B or SWF like there is for 2HF and 2WF allowing for even more MIN/MAXing. How about that?

[Grailhawk]

Who told you

Any time I proced a death touch x4 back in the day that's the only way that could work.

[Lurzifer]

I beat that 4k dps from your single weapon pally any day with my twf barb.

Come at me bro :P

[Powerhungry]

.

Now think about us poor monks that don't even get the offhand weapon effects bonus from TWF.

Does this mean unarmed monks should not take the TWF feats? Is there any benefits?

[Psiandron]

Does this mean unarmed monks should not take the TWF feats? Is there any benefits?

Off-hand proc rate increases and off-hand double strikes

[Grailhawk]

Does this mean unarmed monks should not take the TWF feats? Is there any benefits?

What he is saying is that monks only equip one weapon even though they attack with 2 fists this means that they can not use the offhand slot to apply effects such as stunning or dragons edge that would apply to both hands. Its a very small price to pay for the perks unarmed gets (10% Alacrity, Full off hand Stat damage, and off hand double strike equal to main hand double strike).

Yes unarmed monks should take the TWF feats they increase your attack speed.

[Powerhungry]

ok thx- was hoping I didn't waste feats by taking the TWF line

[Monkey-Boy]

+X to damage scales better to TWFing than anything else.

I'm just wrapping off the third monk live on toon that is natively a tempest ranger, that toon also has 3 Arcane PLs or another +3 damage.

So that's +6 damage a swing. Add in melee power that about +10 a swing without blitzing or counting crit modifiers.

So that's +10 a swing, to both hands. If I were SWF/THFing it would be +11 or so, and TWFing still gets the most attacks.

Same thing with deadly, + of weapons, artifact bonus (Claw or Planar Focus), and the profane bonuses (Litany/Epic Litany). All scale better with TWFing than any other style.

(If I'm factually wrong please correct me)

[Monkey-Boy]

+X to damage scales better to TWFing than anything else.

I'm just wrapping off the third monk live on toon that is natively a tempest ranger, that toon also has 3 Arcane PLs or another +3 damage.

So that's +6 damage a swing. Add in melee power that about +10 a swing without blitzing or counting crit modifiers.

So that's +10 a swing, to both hands. If I were SWF/THFing it would be +11 or so, and TWFing still gets the most attacks.

Same thing with deadly, + of weapons, artifact bonus (Claw or Planar Focus), and the profane bonuses (Litany/Epic Litany). All scale better with TWFing than any other style.

(If I'm factually wrong please correct me)

Quoting myself, because I'm wrong as hell.

Been doing a bunch of DPS tests between a bunch of different toons, and TWFing is garbage. It's needs something, it's so far behind SWFing there's no reason to bother playing this game on a TWFer.

Did SWFing even get that stat bonus correct?

[HedgeHogShadow]

Quoting myself, because I'm wrong as hell.

Been doing a bunch of DPS tests between a bunch of different toons, and TWFing is garbage. It's needs something, it's so far behind SWFing there's no reason to bother playing this game on a TWFer.

Did SWFing even get that stat bonus correct?

I agree TWF is behind, and it should not be. I think an offhand weapon should be more dangerous than an orb. But, I have a question; Why doesn't my red-slot augment proc if it is in my off hand? Are there more effects that are just negated if they are in the offhand?

[depositbox]

Two-handed fighting:
Bonus to speed (or glancing blows/off-hand attacks):
Adds glancing blows to attack sequence
+50% glancing blow damage
+9% glancing blow triggering weapon effect
Bonus to damage:
+50% stat modifier to damage
+20 melee power

ftfy

[Saekee]

TWF is especially effective for builds that add damage to both hands like envenomed blades and sneak attack damage. In fact, both sneak attack and envenomed blades got a huge buff, so that indirectly helps TWF

[Krelar]

Is there a reason Two-weapon fighting is lacking? No melee power? No additional damage based on appropriate ability?

Rationale? Thoughts?

Here's the reason we've been given. (There may have been others but this was the first I found)

Great feedback in this thread.

We are watching two weapon fighting closely for balance.

Some thoughts:

~ We buffed Tempest to significantly reduce the cooldowns on two key abilities. The Growing Storm's damage buff should have just under a 50% up time, and Dance of Death should have a bit more than 1/3 up time. With Dance of Death doing 5[W] and changing all base attacks to a 4 enemy AoE we want to see how that compares to glancing blows.

~ As we move more and more towards a system that scales with Melee Power, abilities which use on hit effects will grow in usefulness. The Paladin's light damage is an example. We also buffed Venomed Blades from Assassin to scale with 200% Melee Power. Two Weapon Fighting can generate the most on hit effects of any style.

Sev~

[SealedInSong]

Two-handed fighting:
Bonus to speed (or glancing blows/off-hand attacks):
Adds glancing blows to attack sequence
+50% glancing blow damage
+9% glancing blow triggering weapon effect
Bonus to damage:
+50% stat modifier to damage
+20 melee power

Single-weapon fighting:
Bonus to speed (or glancing blows/off-hand attacks):
+30% combat style attack speed
Bonus to damage:
+10 melee power
+50% appropriate ability score to damage
Greatly synergizes with doublestrike
Can equip offhand orb

Two-weapon fighting:
Bonus to speed (or glancing blows/off-hand attacks):
80% off-hand attack
Bonus to damage:
NONE
Benefits high bonus damage dice such as Sneak Attack
Secondary effects in offhand apply to mainhand


***

Above was compiled with what others have written and my own sense of the merits.

I think the general player consensus is, yes, TWF has some uses for pure/near pure rogues, but beyond that, it's now mostly flavor for tempest rangers. I find that a little sad, but there was a time when TWF was king, as many remember.

My note to the devs would be...BUFF TWF this way:
give it a melee tiered power boost like other fighting styles
sprinkle enhancement trees and epic destinies with a few more TWF perks, on the lines of tempest or Balanced Attacks (Primal Avatar)

I'm sure there are DDO players out there with better ideas, though.

[Monkey-Boy]

I'm sure there are DDO players out there with better ideas, though.

I'm thinking it would be best of SWFing/Vanguard received some hefty nerfs.

For one if the damage bonus on my SWFing pally is correct there is no way in hell the modifier was changed 1.5 Stat damage from 2x Stat. Was this actually changed?

Probably what'd be best is to remove the 30%/20% speed bonuses.

Though Severlin said they'd prefer not to balance stuff with nerfs, but when my pally gains 1000 DPS by replacing his off-hand weapon with an orb the system is horribly broken.

SWFing is putting out 30% more single-target DPS than TWFing when all things are equal (in this case, the same toon just LR'd). Is Turbine going to buff TWFing 30% to make up for this nonsense?