THF, SWF, and TWF

[Clemeit]

Two-handed fighting:
Bonus to speed (or glancing blows/off-hand attacks):
Adds glancing blows to attack sequence
+50% glancing blow damage
+9% glancing blow triggering weapon effect
Bonus to damage:
+10 melee power

Single-weapon fighting:
Bonus to speed (or glancing blows/off-hand attacks):
+30% combat style attack speed
Bonus to damage:
+10 melee power
+50% appropriate ability score to damage

Two-weapon fighting:
Bonus to speed (or glancing blows/off-hand attacks):
80% off-hand attack
Bonus to damage:
NONE

Is there a reason Two-weapon fighting is lacking? No melee power? No additional damage based on appropriate ability?

Rationale? Thoughts?

[Toro12]

Being able to hold a secondary effect weapon in your offhand that applies to your main weapon like stunning , deception, ect.
TWF was king for so long coupled with the problems they have with attack speed modifiers leads me to believe they just kicked the can down the road a bit on TWF getting it to scale better like they did with THF and the new hotness that is SWF.

Now think about us poor monks that don't even get the offhand weapon effects bonus from TWF.

[Grailhawk]

Being able to hold a secondary effect weapon in your offhand that applies to your main weapon like stunning , deception, ect.
TWF was king for so long coupled with the problems they have with attack speed modifiers leads me to believe they just kicked the can down the road a bit on TWF getting it to scale better like they did with THF and the new hotness that is SWF.

Now think about us poor monks that don't even get the offhand weapon effects bonus from TWF.

10% Alacrity, 100% off hand damage, and off hand double strike = to main hand double strike, handwrap monks are fine with out the extra effects, and I would trade effects for those bonues on a TWF any day.

[depositbox]

Two-handed fighting:
Bonus to speed (or glancing blows/off-hand attacks):
Adds glancing blows to attack sequence
+50% glancing blow damage
+9% glancing blow triggering weapon effect
Bonus to damage:
+50% stat modifier to damage
+20 melee power

ftfy

[Saekee]

TWF is especially effective for builds that add damage to both hands like envenomed blades and sneak attack damage. In fact, both sneak attack and envenomed blades got a huge buff, so that indirectly helps TWF

[Krelar]

Is there a reason Two-weapon fighting is lacking? No melee power? No additional damage based on appropriate ability?

Rationale? Thoughts?

Here's the reason we've been given. (There may have been others but this was the first I found)

Great feedback in this thread.

We are watching two weapon fighting closely for balance.

Some thoughts:

~ We buffed Tempest to significantly reduce the cooldowns on two key abilities. The Growing Storm's damage buff should have just under a 50% up time, and Dance of Death should have a bit more than 1/3 up time. With Dance of Death doing 5[W] and changing all base attacks to a 4 enemy AoE we want to see how that compares to glancing blows.

~ As we move more and more towards a system that scales with Melee Power, abilities which use on hit effects will grow in usefulness. The Paladin's light damage is an example. We also buffed Venomed Blades from Assassin to scale with 200% Melee Power. Two Weapon Fighting can generate the most on hit effects of any style.

Sev~

[Powerhungry]

.

Now think about us poor monks that don't even get the offhand weapon effects bonus from TWF.

Does this mean unarmed monks should not take the TWF feats? Is there any benefits?

[Psiandron]

Does this mean unarmed monks should not take the TWF feats? Is there any benefits?

Off-hand proc rate increases and off-hand double strikes

[Grailhawk]

Does this mean unarmed monks should not take the TWF feats? Is there any benefits?

What he is saying is that monks only equip one weapon even though they attack with 2 fists this means that they can not use the offhand slot to apply effects such as stunning or dragons edge that would apply to both hands. Its a very small price to pay for the perks unarmed gets (10% Alacrity, Full off hand Stat damage, and off hand double strike equal to main hand double strike).

Yes unarmed monks should take the TWF feats they increase your attack speed.

[Powerhungry]

ok thx- was hoping I didn't waste feats by taking the TWF line

[Monkey-Boy]

+X to damage scales better to TWFing than anything else.

I'm just wrapping off the third monk live on toon that is natively a tempest ranger, that toon also has 3 Arcane PLs or another +3 damage.

So that's +6 damage a swing. Add in melee power that about +10 a swing without blitzing or counting crit modifiers.

So that's +10 a swing, to both hands. If I were SWF/THFing it would be +11 or so, and TWFing still gets the most attacks.

Same thing with deadly, + of weapons, artifact bonus (Claw or Planar Focus), and the profane bonuses (Litany/Epic Litany). All scale better with TWFing than any other style.

(If I'm factually wrong please correct me)

[Monkey-Boy]

+X to damage scales better to TWFing than anything else.

I'm just wrapping off the third monk live on toon that is natively a tempest ranger, that toon also has 3 Arcane PLs or another +3 damage.

So that's +6 damage a swing. Add in melee power that about +10 a swing without blitzing or counting crit modifiers.

So that's +10 a swing, to both hands. If I were SWF/THFing it would be +11 or so, and TWFing still gets the most attacks.

Same thing with deadly, + of weapons, artifact bonus (Claw or Planar Focus), and the profane bonuses (Litany/Epic Litany). All scale better with TWFing than any other style.

(If I'm factually wrong please correct me)

Quoting myself, because I'm wrong as hell.

Been doing a bunch of DPS tests between a bunch of different toons, and TWFing is garbage. It's needs something, it's so far behind SWFing there's no reason to bother playing this game on a TWFer.

Did SWFing even get that stat bonus correct?

[HedgeHogShadow]

Quoting myself, because I'm wrong as hell.

Been doing a bunch of DPS tests between a bunch of different toons, and TWFing is garbage. It's needs something, it's so far behind SWFing there's no reason to bother playing this game on a TWFer.

Did SWFing even get that stat bonus correct?

I agree TWF is behind, and it should not be. I think an offhand weapon should be more dangerous than an orb. But, I have a question; Why doesn't my red-slot augment proc if it is in my off hand? Are there more effects that are just negated if they are in the offhand?

[Monkey-Boy]

I think an offhand weapon should be more dangerous than an orb.

This is possibly the most aggravating part of the current DDO meta game, that I could do more damage by NOT using my second weapon. And it's not by a little, it's by a ton.

Who thought this was a good idea when rolling this out?

[Ayseifn]

This is possibly the most aggravating part of the current DDO meta game, that I could do more damage by NOT using my second weapon. And it's not by a little, it's by a ton.

Who thought this was a good idea when rolling this out?

The main issues I have with TWF is that there's no AoE unless I spend a ton of AP in Tempest, cleaves are a DPS loss, the while moving attack animation is horrible and the range on them is too small.

So without even looking at the DPS side of things it loses on the fun factor, especially with how many mobs are in quests these days. It used to be fun getting into position early, knowing the mob AI well enough as to when and where they'd move so you'd be standing still and delivering full DPS with the standing attack animations when they got there but it's just too easy these days to grab a two hander and swing. Glances while moving, cleaves actually up DPS(for most builds), better range and hit a lot of monster to boot.

[Monkey-Boy]

The main issues I have with TWF is that there's no AoE unless I spend a ton of AP in Tempest, cleaves are a DPS loss, the while moving attack animation is horrible and the range on them is too small.

Our tests have all been single-target so this isn't even a factor. SWFing and Vanguard blows TWFing out of the water.

[Ayseifn]

Our tests have all been single-target so this isn't even a factor. SWFing and Vanguard blows TWFing out of the water.

Care to post the details? Love to read the break downs.

[Monkey-Boy]

Care to post the details? Love to read the break downs.

Timed beatdowns of the first optional boss in EE Cabal, he has about 150k HP with 6 person scaling and we can see his actual HP and divide by time to kill. SWFing toons are breaking 4k DPS, no TWFer has broken 3k DPS.

[Ayseifn]

Timed beatdowns of the first optional boss in EE Cabal, he has about 150k HP with 6 person scaling and we can see his actual HP and divide by time to kill. SWFing toons are breaking 4k DPS, no TWFer has broken 3k DPS.

What were the builds/gear? Mainly want to know if the TWFers had good TF weapons and enough deception if a SA monster.

[Monkey-Boy]

What were the builds/gear? Mainly want to know if the TWFers had good TF weapons and enough deception if a SA monster.

More details will be posted shortly after we refine the tests a little better. So far highest DPS for TWFing was a Ranger 18/Rogue 1/Fighter 1 with both Deception and Improved deception so it was getting most of the sneak attack (blitzing and boosted was over 100). it clocked in around 2900ish DPS.

I would like to see a 20 Rogue, but nobody plays them anymore

Best total was a SWFing pally that broke 4k.

All toons were maxed out gear-wise, and had many, many PLs.

In one case, the SAME TOON (paladin) LR'd and changed from TWFing to SWFing and gained 1000 DPS.