U24 Heart of Madness Items

[IronClan]

And there's like 3 of you. For the vast majority of the playerbase, TRing is endgame, and it makes sense to design the game around those people. I'm not sure what else to say. Turbine knows where its bread and butter is, and it isn't players like you.

The people who are still TR'ing aren't keeping this game afloat... apparently TR'ing as an "end game" is worth about 20% more player activity loss per year than a game that has no TR'ing such as LOTRO.

TR'ing might have been a great thing for people who don't have friends or don't mind being in different level ranges from their friends for long stretches of time, (or amazingly can coordinate times to play together) TR'ing might have helped prolong old content in DDO massively... but TR'ing it is safe to say; is not enough of an end game to keep players around. That is clear from both Developer first hand accounts (that got said developer fired) and the only scientific metric we have available to us, as the data shows that when we HAD a wide end game with 9 or 10 Raids and 20 or 30 S/S/S quests, the player base actually INCREASED OVER TIME... where as; two months after they started to obsolete this end game (MOTU) with a cap increase, the game suffered a massive loss of players and a steep attrition rate for the last 3 years.

You can discount the Data, you can Discount the words of a Developer, but if you discount both you're simply playing the Ostrich.

[MeliCat]

And there's like 3 of you. For the vast majority of the playerbase, TRing is endgame, and it makes sense to design the game around those people. I'm not sure what else to say. Turbine knows where its bread and butter is, and it isn't players like you.

I disagree with you and I disagree with anyone who says that TRing is end game. I disagree strongly.

Right now we are in a stupid spot where we are not 30. End game consists of 3 EE raids and that's it. Or EE soloing.

A really key question for any new player considering picking up DDO is "What is end game like?" or "What is the raiding scene like?" Lately that question has been totally ignored by Turbine. I suspect that they have lost potential players who've asked that question of DDO players and been told that the raiding scene is really really bad lately. It does not reflect well on DDO.

I reject utterly the concept that this game is all about TRing. TRing gives a tiny benefit past life and its a chance to use all your fun toys and a chance to use existing BTC gear on a different build if you want a change. It is *not* end game.

I would like to think that away in the background that Turbine are possibly thinking about level 30 and have good quality content and enough of it to start with coming up. There are plenty of players who refuse to TR (and some extremely good ones that have proved it is not necessary to play at the highest levels with no TR) who might try the game again. And some new players who might check out DDO if we have a strong and vital raid scene.

We ain't got that now to my mind.

[GeoffWatson]

So if they changed the minimum level of these items to 28, they'd then be considered "end game gear" and thus perfect?

Geoff.

[Oxarhamar]

So if they changed the minimum level of these items tot 28, they'd then be considered "end game gear" and thus perfect?

Geoff.

Not unless the gear was made to be useful at LVL 28

Not a single item looks interesting compared to what we have available at lower or higher levels.

[Vasax]

All I can say is I guess you have no clue how a DC caster works.......

Lvl 28 Shadowscale armor is very easy to make with very low mats compared to TF weapons.

Opting out of shadowscale armor loses you out on +1 Profane bonus to Spell DCs (which is equal to 2 int points) vs. gaining +4 insightful Int where +3 is available on googles.

You gain 1 int point but in all technicalities you lose out on one int point due to not have the profane DC on armor

Please stop making suggestions in areas you have no clue about.

Signed concerned citizen

Duh, didn't you know? Everything is about "stats" and the word "mythic", takes out all the required effort to make a decent item. Why not remove all the trash gear in this pack and add a % chance of getting the "Wand Bracelet", and in the quests add a % chance for "Wand Bracelet Enhancement Orbs" to drop, which increases a bracelets recharge per day by 1 and a very small % on EE for "Wand Bracelet Increase Orbs", which raise the max recharges per day to 1 of a total max of 15.

See, something like that, would make the pack a must run, must own, chest re-roll bonanza. But, then again, it's all about the "talent".

[FranOhmsford]

A really key question for any new player considering picking up DDO is "What is end game like?" or "What is the raiding scene like?"

I'd like to state that I for one didn't ask these questions when I came to DDO.

I had no interest whatsoever in whether there was an "End-Game" because having never played another MMO I didn't even know what an "End-Game was!

The same goes for a "Raiding Scene"!

In fact it took quite a bit of persuasion by people to get me to even download DDO as at that time I had absolutely NO interest in playing a Computer Game version of D&D!
In fact I thought it was going to be Rubbish and was more than prepared to give it an hour at most then tell those people that it was rubbish and delete it from my computer!

Yet here I am - 4 years later - having barely missed a single day playing this game!

And I've still NOT seen any End-Game - I'd played maybe 2 Epic quests pre MotU!

I now have multiple 2nd and 3rd Lifers and 1 5th life Character.

And I still don't give a Monkey's about the "End-Game" or "Raiding Scene" for myself!
HOWEVER:
I do care about the longevity of this game and having NEITHER of those currently is significantly reducing that!

[MeliCat]

I'd like to state that I for one didn't ask these questions when I came to DDO.

I had no interest whatsoever in whether there was an "End-Game" because having never played another MMO I didn't even know what an "End-Game was!

The same goes for a "Raiding Scene"!

In fact it took quite a bit of persuasion by people to get me to even download DDO as at that time I had absolutely NO interest in playing a Computer Game version of D&D!
In fact I thought it was going to be Rubbish and was more than prepared to give it an hour at most then tell those people that it was rubbish and delete it from my computer!

Yet here I am - 4 years later - having barely missed a single day playing this game!

And I've still NOT seen any End-Game - I'd played maybe 2 Epic quests pre MotU!

I now have multiple 2nd and 3rd Lifers and 1 5th life Character.

And I still don't give a Monkey's about the "End-Game" or "Raiding Scene" for myself!
HOWEVER:
I do care about the longevity of this game and having NEITHER of those currently is significantly reducing that!

Ok... I should add "A key question for anyplayer [who has any sort of online gaming/ MMO history]"

Agreed that different people have different things they enjoy in DDO.

*However* if DDO is going to be taken at all seriously in the MMO space, you can't totally ignore this question.

There are too many people who *loathe* TRing. As in REALLY hate it. It is not something they do. They play the game to get to cap, they play at cap. That is the game that they play.

Personally I really enjoy TRing and mucking around at lowbie land and in-between. But I very much feel for those who detest it. And I am exasperated by people who are so ignorant to think that TRing is all there is and all that matters, who totally ignore what is a really basic thing with any persistent world game - you need an end game.

[FranOhmsford]

Ok... I should add "A key question for anyplayer [who has any sort of online gaming/ MMO history]"

Agreed that different people have different things they enjoy in DDO.

*However* if DDO is going to be taken at all seriously in the MMO space, you can't totally ignore this question.

There are too many people who *loathe* TRing. As in REALLY hate it. It is not something they do. They play the game to get to cap, they play at cap. That is the game that they play.

Personally I really enjoy TRing and mucking around at lowbie land and in-between. But I very much feel for those who detest it. And I am exasperated by people who are so ignorant to think that TRing is all there is and all that matters, who totally ignore what is a really basic thing with any persistent world game - you need an end game.

Even those who loathe TRing - If they're interested in playing an End-Game they will do so at least TWICE!

I'm with you that DDO needs an End-Game {I don't care about it that much myself BUT it's good for the longevity of the game!}.
I agree that that End-Game needs to be about Raids and Grouping!

However:

DDO has a TR System that separates it from every other MMO out there - A System that is truly amazing!
No it's NOT a good Substitute for an End-Game BUT it has its place and should be looked after!

[valarmorghuliis]

And I've still NOT seen any End-Game - I'd played maybe 2 Epic quests pre MotU!

I now have multiple 2nd and 3rd Lifers and 1 5th life Character.

Out of curiosity what do you spend all your in game time doing if you aren't on a tr binge and you don't play anything that you consider endgame? Not picking... I'm honestly curious

[FranOhmsford]

Out of curiosity what do you spend all your in game time doing if you aren't on a tr binge and you don't play anything that you consider endgame? Not picking... I'm honestly curious

28 Characters on Cannith {not one under Lvl 12 1st life - 1 5th lifer, multiple 2nd and 3rd lifers}
13 on Sarlona {not one under Lvl 15 1st life - 2 3rd lifers, multiple 2nd lifers}
7 on Khyber {not one under Lvl 12 1st life}
1 on Argo {Lvl 21 Bladeforged}
1 on Orien {OK this one was basically made for the Card Event and I only log on to roll the weekly Gold Dice}
AND THAT'S JUST ON MY MAIN ACCOUNT!

Also: I've ended up deleting a number of characters - One even made it to Lvl 16 {and NOT using a Stone or Iconic}!

[valarmorghuliis]

28 Characters on Cannith {not one under Lvl 12 1st life - 1 5th lifer, multiple 2nd and 3rd lifers}
13 on Sarlona {not one under Lvl 15 1st life - 2 3rd lifers, multiple 2nd lifers}
7 on Khyber {not one under Lvl 12 1st life}
1 on Argo {Lvl 21 Bladeforged}
1 on Orien {OK this one was basically made for the Card Event and I only log on to roll the weekly Gold Dice}
AND THAT'S JUST ON MY MAIN ACCOUNT!

Also: I've ended up deleting a number of characters - One even made it to Lvl 16 {and NOT using a Stone or Iconic}!

Gotcha.
I used to be a bit of an altaholic back when raid timer resets weren't on the ah for 15k plat and it made more sense to have a bunch of characters if you played a lot.
These days I just play 6 or 7 on Thelanis (4 or 5 at cap at any given time)
AND WHEN I WANT TO TRY A NEW BUILD OR VARIATION I JUST TR SOMEONE!

Also: I've been told that I can be unintentionally abrasive - So I decided to make you feel more comfortable by following your formatting (I'm NOT sure why we are shouting though)!

[noinfo]

I disagree with you and I disagree with anyone who says that TRing is end game. I disagree strongly.

Right now we are in a stupid spot where we are not 30. End game consists of 3 EE raids and that's it. Or EE soloing.

A really key question for any new player considering picking up DDO is "What is end game like?" or "What is the raiding scene like?" Lately that question has been totally ignored by Turbine. I suspect that they have lost potential players who've asked that question of DDO players and been told that the raiding scene is really really bad lately. It does not reflect well on DDO.

I reject utterly the concept that this game is all about TRing. TRing gives a tiny benefit past life and its a chance to use all your fun toys and a chance to use existing BTC gear on a different build if you want a change. It is *not* end game.

I would like to think that away in the background that Turbine are possibly thinking about level 30 and have good quality content and enough of it to start with coming up. There are plenty of players who refuse to TR (and some extremely good ones that have proved it is not necessary to play at the highest levels with no TR) who might try the game again. And some new players who might check out DDO if we have a strong and vital raid scene.

We ain't got that now to my mind.

Unfortunately while the power increase is small increments it is power that can only be achieved though TR and therefore there will always be a bleed from any perceived end game while this is still needed (perceived or otherwise)

I am not saying as many like to on the forums that a first life toon can't be extremely powerful and is only a small % behind a multi life equally geared and played toon but I am saying that under the current model of TR that there will be a continued bleed of characters to TR as many of them feel stagnant at end game after TR due to no character growth that can be experienced with the TR and ER models.

The current issues for any end game will be:

1. People want characters to gain in power even if slightly
2. Turbine wants to continue a level 1+ game for the benefit of new players and the fact many people prefer that level of play

Proposed solutions

1. In addition to TR allow for "Ancestoring" ie run up another toon and have it retired as an ancestor for the primary toon. Everything is consumed btc gear and all. Level needed for it to be decided as multi TR required more xp than a first life but this is less of an issue when you consider the gear a multi life TR carries with them. This gives the 'new' players less of a power balance reduction, increases the 'challenge' many ask for, though allows those who would like to continue TR to do so. Players can keep their mains at cap if they wish knowing that they can increase its power through levelling others. Don't like the current life of it? now you can delete or park and level another while you get over burn out.

2. Remove the collection of fate points from ETR. Gain past lives, but have actual xp for fate points from earned at cap.

3. Allocate a free feat slot at 3 for completionist. However there should be a reward for those progressing or who want to only specialise in their chosen class. 3x in class should unlock +2 to their class stat and that stats skills that can also be used. Eg 3x fighter lives equals +2 to strength and strength based skills at level 3, only one such feat can be slotted at 3.

Until something like this happens any attempt at creating and end game will only result in a splinter group rather than a community approach.

[Oxarhamar]

Unfortunately while the power increase is small increments it is power that can only be achieved though TR and therefore there will always be a bleed from any perceived end game while this is still needed (perceived or otherwise)

I am not saying as many like to on the forums that a first life toon can't be extremely powerful and is only a small % behind a multi life equally geared and played toon but I am saying that under the current model of TR that there will be a continued bleed of characters to TR as many of them feel stagnant at end game after TR due to no character growth that can be experienced with the TR and ER models.

The current issues for any end game will be:

1. People want characters to gain in power even if slightly
2. Turbine wants to continue a level 1+ game for the benefit of new players and the fact many people prefer that level of play

Proposed solutions

1. In addition to TR allow for "Ancestoring" ie run up another toon and have it retired as an ancestor for the primary toon. Everything is consumed btc gear and all. Level needed for it to be decided as multi TR required more xp than a first life but this is less of an issue when you consider the gear a multi life TR carries with them. This gives the 'new' players less of a power balance reduction, increases the 'challenge' many ask for, though allows those who would like to continue TR to do so. Players can keep their mains at cap if they wish knowing that they can increase its power through levelling others. Don't like the current life of it? now you can delete or park and level another while you get over burn out.

2. Remove the collection of fate points from ETR. Gain past lives, but have actual xp for fate points from earned at cap.

3. Allocate a free feat slot at 3 for completionist. However there should be a reward for those progressing or who want to only specialise in their chosen class. 3x in class should unlock +2 to their class stat and that stats skills that can also be used. Eg 3x fighter lives equals +2 to strength and strength based skills at level 3, only one such feat can be slotted at 3.

Until something like this happens any attempt at creating and end game will only result in a splinter group rather than a community approach.

Going to have to say No to all ideas here.

[noinfo]

Going to have to say No to all ideas here.

And there is nothing wrong with your opinion that you must say "No", because that is your opinion. But if there is a flaw in my reasoning and proposal I would like to hear it. Otherwise if its just how you "feel" that's ok too, though perhaps this thread is not the place for the discussion.

[Oxarhamar]

And there is nothing wrong with your opinion that you must say "No", because that is your opinion. But if there is a flaw in my reasoning and proposal I would like to hear it. Otherwise if its just how you "feel" that's ok too, though perhaps this thread is not the place for the discussion.

1> Ancestoring its been proposed before and its not well liked, as well as highly exploitable. Players with umpteen alts they have sitting around can instantly have umpteen past lives. (idea like this has been discussed before)

2. Separating fate points from ETR to cap will not do anything for this "so called" endgame unless you want endgame to be Zerging more High XP quests for fate points.

3. I do think that completionist should get a free feat slot at lvl 3 but, so should every TR of any class that can only be slotted with Past life feats.

[noinfo]

1> Ancestoring its been proposed before and its not well liked, as well as highly exploitable. Players with umpteen alts they have sitting around can instantly have umpteen past lives. (idea like this has been discussed before)

2. Separating fate points from ETR to cap will not do anything for this "so called" endgame unless you want endgame to be Zerging more High XP quests for fate points.

3. I do think that completionist should get a free feat slot at lvl 3 but, so should every TR of any class that can only be slotted with Past life feats.

1. Yep Ancestoring has been proposed before and was not "well received" by "some" to say anything else is very subjective as by others it was well received. I would like to know how you could use the term exploitable in this context? Are you claiming that the people with these alts did not play them to that level that they cheated somehow and gained some advantage? A player with umpteen alts could "cash them in" and end up with umpteen past lives, can you explain how this is different to playing a single character over and over again with every piece of btc gear rare and raid? As far as the game goes its not, as far as its concerned each TR is a new entity with the same name and gear transferred via cache. The difference is in peoples mindsets. The only thing to compare here is the xp cost of one vs the other and to consider why their is an increase in xp between lives in the first place, which in part was to balance out the power accumulated by the character in previous lives vs the content being played first life toons don't have that to have to balance. Don't get me wrong I think the early adopters of TR had it much harder than today, but then on balance TR lives made up for a higher percentage of power than now.
The only debate that needs to happen with this is:
A. is 1st life xp a fair transfer as they had to gear as they levelled and are giving up that btc gear and tomes etc, no carry over. Or do they need to level further into epic to compensate for it?
B. for those concerned about "instant" completionist, and think this should be an issue, how long should each life be timegated like TR timers?
C. Lorewise its a wash, Reincarnation and Bloodline inheritance have all been used as plot devices in fantasy. Bloodline is probably stronger in DnD

2. Yes this is exactly right, instead of zerging at other levels they will zerg at end game, no matter how you want to spin it players are always going to zerg so I am not sure of the relevance of that. Yes it will get them to play at end game, how they play will be based on their own style.

3. Am not really disagreeing.

[Oxarhamar]

1. Yep Ancestoring has been proposed before and was not "well received" by "some" to say anything else is very subjective as by others it was well received. I would like to know how you could use the term exploitable in this context? Are you claiming that the people with these alts did not play them to that level that they cheated somehow and gained some advantage? A player with umpteen alts could "cash them in" and end up with umpteen past lives, can you explain how this is different to playing a single character over and over again with every piece of btc gear rare and raid? As far as the game goes its not, as far as its concerned each TR is a new entity with the same name and gear transferred via cache. The difference is in peoples mindsets. The only thing to compare here is the xp cost of one vs the other and to consider why their is an increase in xp between lives in the first place, which in part was to balance out the power accumulated by the character in previous lives vs the content being played first life toons don't have that to have to balance. Don't get me wrong I think the early adopters of TR had it much harder than today, but then on balance TR lives made up for a higher percentage of power than now.
The only debate that needs to happen with this is:
A. is 1st life xp a fair transfer as they had to gear as they levelled and are giving up that btc gear and tomes etc, no carry over. Or do they need to level further into epic to compensate for it?
B. for those concerned about "instant" completionist, and think this should be an issue, how long should each life be timegated like TR timers?
C. Lorewise its a wash, Reincarnation and Bloodline inheritance have all been used as plot devices in fantasy. Bloodline is probably stronger in DnD

2. Yes this is exactly right, instead of zerging at other levels they will zerg at end game, no matter how you want to spin it players are always going to zerg so I am not sure of the relevance of that. Yes it will get them to play at end game, how they play will be based on their own style.

3. Am not really disagreeing.

Players sure did play their alts but, they did not TR they should not be given the benefits of TR for alts.
as far as exploiting ancestry it wouldn't be difficult to run up easy first life characters using BTA gear repeatedly faster than TRING even if you must take the 1st lifer to 28 the XP is far to easy to come by in easy zergable quests once you hit Epic. TR works fine

there is no need for this


Zerging for XP at 28 is no more endgame than TR or ETR

[depositbox]

Sigh...

Yes, TF is supposed to be better. However, this doesn't change the fact that it is simply a mediocre item. What's the point of actually going for the mythic version? So you can level from 26-28? Whoop tee doo.





Yea, this is why releasing CR26 content is a doomed endeavor. Nobody uses gear from all those packs you just named except if they are constantly on the hamster wheel, in which case it doesn't matter anyway.

Agreed. I had hoped turbine would have caught on to how older items were made to specifically cater to niche builds with unique abilities that only certain prestige classes could get the most use from. But, instead we get 11 stat, insightful 4, exceptional 2, profane 2, dc +6. Largely why any items they release will be considered trash by most players unless the items have more power creep to obsolete the older items. Which is something that isnt good for the game, content longevity or players time investment and motivation. Any items released MUST be creatively designed and not universal stat inflated pieces that outclass the ones before them. Please, devs. We need this unless you plan to obsolete Thunderforged and Necro 4 gear- which have in turn obsoleted everything before them.

[Oxarhamar]

Agreed. I had hoped turbine would have caught on to how older items were made to specifically cater to niche builds with unique abilities that only certain prestige classes could get the most use from. But, instead we get 11 stat, insightful 4, exceptional 2, profane 2, dc +6. Largely why any items they release will be considered trash by most players unless the items have more power creep to obsolete the older items. Which is something that isnt good for the game, content longevity or players time investment and motivation. Any items released MUST be creatively designed and not universal stat inflated pieces that outclass the ones before them. Please, devs. We need this unless you plan to obsolete Thunderforged and Necro 4 gear- which have in turn obsoleted everything before them.

except for the niche builds that are still using some of the rare stuff that has come from as far back as MOTU or EEGH and just hasn't had any replacements.

U23 was most Melee creep.

Not sure what we would call U24 stuff besides mostly useless.

[lyrecono]

after getting so many past lives, why should i make room for these btc items for etr-ing?
feels kinda ok for people who don't want to raid i guess