Sacred Vanguards (aka Revisiting S&B Paladins for New Players)

[unbongwah]

Have you tried a Vanguard Pally in Reaper on Lamaland?

Nope, sorry. If you do, lemme know how it goes.

[Kaisheng21]

How is this affected by U34?

[zachmandude]

Hey, Unbongwah, I just wanted to let you know that I've played this build (With my own tweaks to skills, feats/feat placement, etc) for a few months now. After gearing him out for the most part (just about perfect IMO) He's great. I freaking love stunning things. The glancing blows on my bastard swords (eSpinal Tap/Thunderforged) is ridiculous, and it's great to see the lines of damage that just can't keep up with how fast I'm attacking!

I'm currently sitting around 170+ PRR and I forget how much MRR, as well as 200%+ Fortification. The PRR/MRR Probably isn't the highest but it does make a large difference, and it's really nice to have.

UMD is great to have on this build. Being able to Resurrect a fellow party member helps out a bunch.

I'd like to point out that eSpinal Tap is a hidden jewel because of the sheer CON damage it can do (as well as raw physical). Plus...less CON means less Fortitude saves for your Stunning Shield and such! (I usually almost never use Stunning Shield because the 5% procs so often on Shield Bash!)

I really do love this build, and I've favorited it, and I've written it down for future reference (Just in case).

Again, I Just really wanted to thank you for laying out the guide. It helped me out a lot (Since I've been gone quite a few years. The whole "Bastard Swords get glancing blows/bonuses from THF" is new to me, among a few of the other Enhancement Tree changes.)

I VERY *RARELY* TR, but when Dragonborn comes out, I plan to TR my Paladin using the same build layout you've provided. (Again, with the few adjustments I've made)

Thanks again so much for laying out the guts of this build. It's great and a blast to play.

[EllisDee37]

UMD is great to have on this build. Being able to Resurrect a fellow party member helps out a bunch.

I believe paladins can scroll raise dead, resurrection, and even true resurrection without umd checks because they can be added to your spell book with the ML12 sacred defender core. This makes them "native" to paladins.

[zachmandude]

I never bother to check the requirements for scrolls usually. Especially on Paladins, so you're probably right. Still, being able to UMD other scrolls is nice. UMD always comes in handy

[EllisDee37]

I never bother to check the requirements for scrolls usually. Especially on Paladins, so you're probably right. Still, being able to UMD other scrolls is nice. UMD always comes in handy

For sure. Whole forests have been cut down to supply my paladin with his teleport, true seeing and greater heroism scrolls. (But he's in light armor so doesn't have to worry about ASF.)

[zachmandude]

Let's not forget Greater Restoration either! Always useful for when things go wrong. (At least it's useful for those who don't have DW, anyway.) I think that was the hardest part of leveling in my case. I never bothered to run the Splinterskull chain to grab another pair of the flesh render's goggles. (I have a pair, hidden somewhere with one of my characters). I definitely struggled with negative levels until I obtained Death Ward.

[unbongwah]

How is this affected by U34?

If you're asking, "How does it perform in Reaper mode?" the answer is "I dunno." I haven't played much DDO lately: not even tried Reaper yet. The self-healing nerf definitely hurts one of the big advantages of paladin vs fighter Vanguards, though.

The other big change is the nerf to racial action boosts - shared cooldown with class boosts so no more dual-boosting - but that affects all human builds not just this one. And you still get twice as many Melee / Ranged Power boosts than any other fleshy race (besides half-elf) for only 1 AP, so it's hard for me to feel too sorry about the change.

[Kaisheng21]

If you're asking, "How does it perform in Reaper mode?" the answer is "I dunno." I haven't played much DDO lately: not even tried Reaper yet. The self-healing nerf definitely hurts one of the big advantages of paladin vs fighter Vanguards, though.

The other big change is the nerf to racial action boosts - shared cooldown with class boosts so no more dual-boosting - but that affects all human builds not just this one. And you still get twice as many Melee / Ranged Power boosts than any other fleshy race (besides half-elf) for only 1 AP, so it's hard for me to feel too sorry about the change.

Yeah, the twinned boosts was what I was asking about. I was thinking about just taking whichever one boosted my damage the most.

[Shavron]

Just a question.
The spinal tab B.sword says that it does pierce damage.
Is this a bug and if it's not then taking IC:Slashing isn't optimal if i'm planing to use such a weapon?

[EllisDee37]

Just a question.
The spinal tab B.sword says that it does pierce damage.
Is this a bug and if it's not then taking IC:Slashing isn't optimal if i'm planing to use such a weapon?

Improved Critical: Slashing applies to all Bastard Swords regardless what type of damage they do.

Similarly, a quarterstaff melee build using sireth -- which does slashing and piercing damage -- would want to take Improved Critical: Bludgeoning because that's the feat that works for quarterstaffs.

[Shavron]

Thank you EllisDee37.
I never know that

[michaelsutherland]

Drawback to CKT is it renders Div Might useless. But I have theory-crafted ideas for CHA+INT-based builds using Harper (KtA) instead of DM.

FLAVOR BUILD INCOMING

PDK Sentinel of Helm
Paladin 20
Lawful Good Purple Dragon Knight


Stats
               36pt     Tome     Level Up
               ----     ----     --------
Strength        14       +4       4: CHA
Dexterity        8       +4       8: CHA
Constitution    16       +4      12: CHA
Intelligence    16       +4      16: CHA
Wisdom           8       +4      20: CHA
Charisma        16       +4      24: CHA
                                 28: CHA

Feats

 1        : Shield Mastery
 1 PDK    : Combat Expertise
 1 Deity  : Follower of: Helm
 3        : Two Handed Fighting
 6        : Empower Healing Spell OR Improved Shield Bash
 6 Deity  : Ever Watchful
 9        : Improved Critical: Slashing
12        : Improved Shield Mastery
15        : Improved Two Handed Fighting
18        : Greater Two Handed Fighting
21 Epic   : Overwhelming Critical
24 Epic   : Quicken Spell OR Bulwark of Defense
26 Destiny: Perfect Two Handed Fighting
27 Epic   : Epic Damage Reduction
28 Destiny: Elusive Target
29 Destiny: Deific Warding
30 Epic   : Epic Fortitude OR Shield Deflection
30 Legend : Scion of: Plane of Earth


Enhancements (80 AP)

Sacred Defender (41 AP)

Holy Bastion, Sacred Defense, Divine Righteousness, Redemption, Glorious Stand, Eternal Defender

Extra Lay On Hands III, Durable Defense III, Sacred Armor Mastery III
Instinctive Defense I, Bulwark Aura III, Sacred Shield Mastery III
Resistance Aura III, Tenacious Defense III
Reinforced Armor III, Swift Defense, Hardy Defense III
Reinforced Shield III, Harbored by Light III

Vanguard (21 AP)

To the Fore!, Shield Combat I, Vicious Shield I, Shield Combat II

Shield Smash III, Unbalancing Shove I
Stunning Shield III, Missile Shield II, Melee Power Boost III
Follow Up III, Fatal Bulwark

Knight of the Chalice (8 AP)

Slayer of Evil

Extra Turning II, Extra Smite II
Exalted Cleave III

Harper Agent (7 AP)

Agent of Good I

Harper Enchantment, Traveler's Toughness II
Know the Angles II

Purple Dragon Knight (3 AP)

Damage Boost

Cormyrean Knight Training


Destiny (24 AP)

Unyielding Sentinel

Commanding Presence I, Shield Prowess III
Block Energy III, Legendary Shield Mastery III
Renewal III, Endless Lay On Hands III
(none)
Hardened III, Strength of Vitality III
Undying Vanguard

Twists of Fate (35 fate points)

Wild Weapons (Tier 4 Fury)
Grim Precision (Tier 3 Shadowdancer)
Imp. Combat Expertise (Tier 2 Dreadnought)
Extra Action Boost (Tier 1 Dreadnought)
Rejuvenation Cocoon (Tier 1 Primal)

How did you do the Paladin part of this? I just TR'd a paladin to a PDK and I could not select deity feats, he pretty much just advanced as fighter?

[unbongwah]

How did you do the Paladin part of this? I just TR'd a paladin to a PDK and I could not select deity feats, he pretty much just advanced as fighter?

For Iconics, you always start in the default base class (fighter for PDK). However, when you talk to Eliminster, pick the "refuse training" option and you can leave Wheloon and go to Eveningstar to select your next 14 levels. So say you level ftr 1 / pal 14 as PDK. After that, if you want pure paladin, you do an LR +1 to change your first level from ftr to pal. If you leveled all the way to 15 as ftr, though, you're SOL unless you want to spring for LR +20 (or LR +5 x3) to switch to paladin.

[Davohn]

Just came back to game after an almost 5 year layoff and find that all my toons are seriously flawed. I am trying to make something out of what I have and this seems like a viable build but it may be better to go a different direction.

So the question is... Will this build (Vanguard S&B) work with an existing Level 20 Lawfull Good Drow Paladin and if so what changes if any should be made?

Presently my pally is a TWF that made use of rapiers and short swords but in todays game it is seriously lacking. This could be gear related and my own lack of understanding of the game as it is now but either way I could really use some help. I am looking at doing an LR and purchasing a Supreme Tome of +5 or better and making this toon something I can take to level 30 and use for farming gear for my other toons that also need updating.

Any help or build suggestions would be appreciated and since I am totally lost with the newer content of character building with the new feats and ehancement trees a complete progession layout would be very nice to have so I don't go and gimp the build somewhere along the way.

Thanks in advance to anyone that can help and also a BIG Thank You to both EllisDee & Unbongwah for all you guys do.

Davohn

[unbongwah]

Presently my pally is a TWF that made use of rapiers and short swords but in todays game it is seriously lacking.

First off, check my drow paladin thread. In what ways do you find your pally to be lacking? What do you want to improve? Because if the first thing out of your mouth is "needs moar DPS!" - well, maybe you shouldn't be looking at pallies at all.

[Davohn]

First off, check my drow paladin thread. In what ways do you find your pally to be lacking? What do you want to improve? Because if the first thing out of your mouth is "needs moar DPS!" - well, maybe you shouldn't be looking at pallies at all.

Nope the DPS is fine it is the ability to survive one hit deaths that seems to be the biggest issue. As I stated it may be my lack of understanding game mechanics in todays game or just gear issues. My present build is similar to your TWF build but I am sure I have taken the wrong feats or enhancements and gimped him so I can reconfigure those from your build and see how it helps.

I was also wondering how to get or increase if any aoe with melee. (ie. glancing blows etc)

Several people have suggested the S&B version but I didn't know if it was a viable build for a Drow.

[Whitering]

Nope the DPS is fine it is the ability to survive one hit deaths that seems to be the biggest issue. As I stated it may be my lack of understanding game mechanics in todays game or just gear issues. My present build is similar to your TWF build but I am sure I have taken the wrong feats or enhancements and gimped him so I can reconfigure those from your build and see how it helps.

I was also wondering how to get or increase if any aoe with melee. (ie. glancing blows etc)

Several people have suggested the S&B version but I didn't know if it was a viable build for a Drow.

Are you in Reaper? They do a lot of damage and you have to super boost physical and magical resistance. A terrific armor for the middle sections of the 1-20 run (which is level 14), is the Black Dragon Scale armor. If you are doing TWF or THF then the White Dragon armor is likely better for defense, but Black Dragon is great for Offense.

[michaelsutherland]

Hey, Unbongwah, I just wanted to let you know that I've played this build (With my own tweaks to skills, feats/feat placement, etc) for a few months now. After gearing him out for the most part (just about perfect IMO) He's great. I freaking love stunning things. The glancing blows on my bastard swords (eSpinal Tap/Thunderforged) is ridiculous, and it's great to see the lines of damage that just can't keep up with how fast I'm attacking!

I'm currently sitting around 170+ PRR and I forget how much MRR, as well as 200%+ Fortification. The PRR/MRR Probably isn't the highest but it does make a large difference, and it's really nice to have.

UMD is great to have on this build. Being able to Resurrect a fellow party member helps out a bunch.

I'd like to point out that eSpinal Tap is a hidden jewel because of the sheer CON damage it can do (as well as raw physical). Plus...less CON means less Fortitude saves for your Stunning Shield and such! (I usually almost never use Stunning Shield because the 5% procs so often on Shield Bash!)

I really do love this build, and I've favorited it, and I've written it down for future reference (Just in case).

Again, I Just really wanted to thank you for laying out the guide. It helped me out a lot (Since I've been gone quite a few years. The whole "Bastard Swords get glancing blows/bonuses from THF" is new to me, among a few of the other Enhancement Tree changes.)

I VERY *RARELY* TR, but when Dragonborn comes out, I plan to TR my Paladin using the same build layout you've provided. (Again, with the few adjustments I've made)

Thanks again so much for laying out the guts of this build. It's great and a blast to play.

SO i am curious,, whats the gear set up you have?

[Talonas1971]

EDIT: this post has been updated for U29.

Update 23 really buffed up paladins: Turbine introduced the Vanguard PrE, improved KotC and Sacred Defender, and upgraded the Holy Sword spell, making it one of the best DPS bonuses in DDO. There's never been a better time to play a classic S&B pally. This thread supplants my Sacred Defender builds; rather than retread everything I said there, I'll just spotlight some of the key changes lately. This thread will be devoted to pure pallies for the Vanguard capstone and the extra lvl 4 spell slots (Zeal, Holy Sword, CSW, Death Ward).

The main goals of any DDO tank build have always been good DPS, good survivability, and enough threat to hold onto mob aggro. U23 has really improved the DPS of paladins in general and S&B pallies in particular (thanks to Vanguard), while keeping the survivability and tanking capabilities they've always had. U23 also improved the defensive benefits of medium & heavy armor by improving PRR and adding MRR; in particular, MRR means you no longer have to feel pigeon-holed into having Evasion to get good protection from Reflex-based spell damage. EDIT: the U28 balance changes eliminated armor MRR, which makes other sources of MRR more important.

Now, all of that being said, my recommendation is that you are still better off using 2H weapons to start and switch to S&B later on. Why? Partly because the DPS bonuses for 2H weapons are pretty front-loaded: +1.5x STR mod to dmg; higher base weapon dmg; +10 dmg from Power Atk (after BAB 5+) vs +5 to 1H weapons. Partly because there are a number of good low-lvl 2H weapons to use, esp. Carnifex. And partly because you have few APs to spend early on, so it's better to split them between two PrEs (KotC and SD) rather than all three. And partly because Vanguard is a backloaded PrE, IMO, which doesn't start hitting its potential until lvl 12.

So this build presumes you use 2H weapons thru lvl 11, then switch to S&B and tier-5 Vanguard at lvl 12. For an example of a S&B pally starting from lvl 1, see ED37's VG pally thread. Or just rearrange the feat order & Enhancements yourself.

Sacred Vanguard (U29)
Paladin 20
Lawful Good Human


Stats
               28pt     32pt     Level Up
               ----     ----     --------
Strength        16       16       4: STR
Dexterity        8        8       8: STR
Constitution    14       16      12: STR
Intelligence    10       10      16: STR
Wisdom           8        8      20: STR
Charisma        16       16      24: STR
                                 28: STR

Skills
          1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
         ------------------------------------------------------------
Intim     4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Concent   2  2     2     2     2     2     2     2     2     2     2  22
UMD       2     1     1     1     1     1     1     1     1     1     11
Tumble    1                                                            1
         ------------------------------------------------------------
         12  3  3  3  3  3  3  3  3  3  3  3  3  3  3  3  3  3  3  3


Feats

 1        : Power Attack
 1 Human  : Two Handed Fighting
 1 Deity  : Follower of: Sovereign Host
 3        : Force of Personality
 6        : Improved Two Handed Fighting
 6 Deity  : Unyielding Sovereignty
 9        : Improved Critical: Slashing
12        : Greater Two Handed Fighting
12 Swap   : Exotic Weapon: Bastard Sword replaces Force of Personality
15        : Shield Mastery
18        : Improved Shield Mastery
21 Epic   : Overwhelming Critical
24 Epic   : Empower Healing Spell
26 Destiny: Guardian Angel OR Perfect Two Handed Fighting
27 Epic   : Epic Damage Reduction OR Stunning Blow
28 Destiny: Elusive Target OR Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
29 Destiny: Deific Warding OR Dire Charge
30 Epic   : Quicken Spell OR Improved Shield Bash
30 Legend : Scion of: Plane of Water OR Arborea


Spells


Cure Light Wounds, Divine Favor, Protection from Evil, Bless
Resist Energy, Angelskin, Remove Paralysis, <Any>
Cure Moderate Wounds, Prayer, Magic Circle Against Evil, Dispel Magic
Holy Sword, Zeal, Cure Serious Wounds, Death Ward


Enhancements (80 AP)

Vanguard (41 AP)

To the Fore!, Shield Combat I, Vicious Shield I, Shield Combat II, Vicious Shield II, Shield Champion
Shield Specialization, Shield Smash III
Shield Specialization, Stunning Shield III, Missile Shield III, Melee Power Boost III
Shield Specialization, Follow Up III, Fatal Bulwark, Shield Riposte III
(none)
Shield to the Face, Disorienting Smash II, Shield Charge III, Armored Strength

Knight of the Chalice (23 AP)

Slayer of Evil, Courage of Heaven, Slayer of Evil II, Improved Courage of Heaven
Extra Turning II, Extra Smite II
Divine Might III, Exalted Cleave III
Improved Restoration I, Divine Sacrifice I, Exalted Smite I
Empowered Smite

Sacred Defender (13 AP)

Holy Bastion, Sacred Defense
Extra Lay On Hands III, Durable Defense III
Inciting Defense II
Tenacious Defense III

Human (3 AP)

Damage Boost
Improved Recovery

Leveling Guide

Hum0 Damage Boost; Hum1 Improved Recovery; SD0 Holy Bastion
SD1 Extra Lay On Hands I, II, III; (Bank 1 AP)
SD1 Durable Defense I; SD0 Sacred Defense; SD1 Durable Defense II, III; SD2 Inciting Defense I
SD2 Inciting Defense II; SD3 Tenacious Defense I, II, III
KoC0 Slayer of Evil; KoC1 Extra Smite I, II; KoC1 Extra Turning I
KoC1 Extra Turning II; KoC0 Courage of Heaven; KoC2 Exalted Cleave I, II
KoC2 Exalted Cleave III; KoC2 Divine Might I
KoC2 Divine Might II, III
KoC3 Exalted Smite I; KoC3 Divine Sacrifice I; KoC0 Slayer of Evil II; KoC3 Improved Restoration I
KoC4 Empowered Smite; KoC4 Censure Demons; KoC4 Passion I
KoC3 Vigor of Life; KoC2 Melee Power Boost I, II
Reset Knight of the Chalice

Vanguard: To the Fore!, Shield Combat I, Vicious Shield I, Shield Combat II
Shield Specialization, Shield Smash III
Shield Specialization, Stunning Shield III, Missile Shield III, Melee Power Boost III
Shield Specialization, Follow Up III, Fatal Bulwark, Shield Riposte III
(none)
Armored Strength
Van5 Shield to the Face; Van5 Shield Charge I, II
Van5 Shield Charge III; Van5 Disorienting Smash I, II; KoC0 Slayer of Evil
KoC1 Extra Smite I, II; KoC1 Extra Turning I, II
KoC2 Exalted Cleave I, II, III; KoC0 Courage of Heaven
KoC2 Divine Might I, II
Van0 Vicious Shield II; KoC3 Divine Sacrifice I; KoC3 Exalted Smite I
KoC0 Slayer of Evil II; KoC2 Divine Might III; KoC3 Improved Restoration I
Van0 Shield Champion; KoC4 Empowered Smite; KoC0 Improved Courage of Heaven


Destiny (24 AP)

Divine Crusader

Endless Turning III, Interrogation, Purge the Wicked
Consecration III
Sacred Ground, Blessed Blades
No Regret, Crusade
Castigation, Heavenly Presence, Celestial Champion
Strike Down

Twists of Fate (18 fate points)

Grim Precision (Tier 3 Shadowdancer)
Legendary Shield Mastery (Tier 2 Sentinel)
Rejuvenation Cocoon (Tier 1 Primal)
Legendary Tactics (Tier 1 Dreadnought)

If you have a +2 INT tome at lvl 7, max Concentration and put remaining pts into Balance or Heal.

Epic feats: as you can see, I listed a lot of options, which will largely depend on whether you want to emphasize DPS or survivability; I list the survivability option first, DPS option second. As for your Scion choice: Arborea is the no-brainer DPS boost (+2 Enhancement bonus, +20 Melee Power); while Plane of Water is +20 MRR and +2d20 cold dmg, so it adds both survivability & DPS, but downside is needing to slot Glaciation gear (you can reach approx. 500 Glaciation Spellpower in current endgame, so approx. 125 cold dmg per hit).

The listed Twists are a best-case scenario and presumes you've leveled almost all of your EDs. But the only must-have IMO is Legendary Shield Mastery for the extra doublestrike & PRR; so fill in the rest as you see fit while leveling.

I'm a completely new player. Ive been able to figure most of my questions about this build out myself, but one thing is baffling me. I am trying to use your enhancement advice to the T, but I'm losing my mind trying to find "durable defense" in the SD tree? I swear its not there. Did they change the name? This is driving me crazy.