Sacred Vanguards (aka Revisiting S&B Paladins for New Players)

[Shavron]

In my experience, Shield Charge (Tier IV) in Heroic levels is okay, but not that great. However, once you get the capstone and you have a chance to stun any opponent that you shield bash, Shield Charge (Tier IV) becomes pretty cool Also, I'm not a big fan of the tier V ability because you usually end up past your enemies, though it can be helpful I end up spending my APs elsewhere.

This is 100% true....Shield Charge in Devil assault when first time did it today proved amazing.
You get like 5 mobs and with 1 click 2 or 3 of them are stunned.

This become my best skill so far after smite and and shield smash which have a very low cool down timer.

[unbongwah]

I've added a simple b.sword vs d.axe DPS comparison to the second post.

[Ralmeth]

So now i'm only 1 level to become 23 and with it comes the choice of another feat.
At 21 i took OC now i don't know what to take?

Also i've realized that most of my damage comes from my shield bashes for some reason.
If i crit with a +5 weapon i was using at most will be 200 damage.
With the shield it's over 400.

Maybe the weapon i'm using sucks i don't know but really shield bash is amazing.

This depends...what other feats do you have? As for your other question regarding your shield bash % that sounds like a bug, but I've not come across it myself.

[unbongwah]

I've finally updated my first post with a U29 build including leveling guide. I'm sticking with my original suggestion of "level with 2H weapons until 12, then switch to S&B." For an example of a S&B pally from lvl 1, see ED37's thread.

EDIT: here are the original builds archived for posterity.

Here's what the build would look like at lvl 12 as a THF KotC build:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.23.01
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 12 Lawful Good Human Female
(12 Paladin) 
Hit Points: 179
Spell Points: 140 
BAB: 12\12\17\22
Fortitude: 14
Reflex: 7
Will: 11

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 12)
Strength             16                    19
Dexterity             8                     8
Constitution         14                    14
Intelligence         10                    10
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma             16                    16

Level 1 (Paladin)
Feat: (Deity) Follower of the Sovereign Host
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Feat: (Human Bonus) Two Handed Fighting


Level 2 (Paladin)


Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Force of Personality


Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 5 (Paladin)


Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Human - Human Versatility: Damage Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Human - Improved Recovery (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Slayer of Evil I (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Courage of Heaven (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Slayer of Evil II (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Turning (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Turning (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Turning (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Smite (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Divine Might (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Divine Might (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Exalted Cleave (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Exalted Cleave (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Exalted Cleave (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Divine Sacrifice (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Holy Bastion (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Sacred Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Extra Lay on Hands (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Extra Lay on Hands (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Extra Lay on Hands (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Durable Defense (Rank 1)


Level 7 (Paladin)


Level 8 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 9 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 10 (Paladin)


Level 11 (Paladin)


Level 12 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Improved Courage of Heaven (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Divine Might (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Action Boost: Melee/Ranged Power (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Action Boost: Melee/Ranged Power (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Vigor of Life (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Exalted Smite (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Vigor of Life (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Empowered Smite (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Avenging Cleave (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Avenging Cleave (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Durable Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Durable Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Resilient Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Resilient Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Tenacious Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Tenacious Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Tenacious Defense (Rank 3)

And here's what it looks like at lvl 20, after swapping FoP feat for b.sword and switching to S&B Vanguard:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.23.01
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Good Human Female
(20 Paladin) 
Hit Points: 280
Spell Points: 260 
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 18
Reflex: 9
Will: 9

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    21
Dexterity             8                     8
Constitution         14                    14
Intelligence         10                    10
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma             16                    16

Level 1 (Paladin)
Feat: (Deity) Follower of the Sovereign Host
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Feat: (Human Bonus) Two Handed Fighting


Level 2 (Paladin)


Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword


Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 5 (Paladin)


Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting


Level 7 (Paladin)


Level 8 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 9 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 10 (Paladin)


Level 11 (Paladin)


Level 12 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting


Level 13 (Paladin)


Level 14 (Paladin)


Level 15 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Shield Mastery


Level 16 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 17 (Paladin)


Level 18 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Mastery


Level 19 (Paladin)


Level 20 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Human - Human Versatility: Damage Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Human - Improved Recovery (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - To the Fore! (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Shield Combat (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Vicious Shield (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Shield Combat II (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Vicious Shield II (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Shield Champion (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Shield Specialization I (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Shield Smash (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Shield Smash (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Shield Smash (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Brutality (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Brutality (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Brutality (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Stunning Shield (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Stunning Shield (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Stunning Shield (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Missile Shield (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Missile Shield (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Missile Shield (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Action Boost: Melee Power (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Action Boost: Melee Power (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Action Boost: Melee Power (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Follow Up (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Follow Up (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Follow Up (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Fatal Bulwark (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Shield Charge (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Shield Charge (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Shield Charge (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Shield to the Face (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Disorienting Smash (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Disorienting Smash (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Disorienting Smash (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Shield Rush (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Shield Rush (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Shield Rush (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Armored Strength (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Holy Bastion (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Sacred Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Extra Lay on Hands (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Extra Lay on Hands (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Extra Lay on Hands (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Durable Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Durable Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Durable Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Resilient Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Resilient Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Tenacious Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Tenacious Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Tenacious Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Slayer of Evil I (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Courage of Heaven (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Turning (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Turning (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Turning (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Smite (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Divine Might (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Divine Might (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Divine Might (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Exalted Cleave (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Exalted Cleave (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Exalted Cleave (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Divine Sacrifice (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Vigor of Life (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Exalted Smite (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Empowered Smite (Rank 1)

Skills: definitely max Intimidate; I would also max Concentration and either UMD or Heal. If you take a +2 INT tome at lvl 7, the extra skill pts can go into Balance.

The main drawback to this approach, as you can probably tell, is that investing in the THF chain on top of the Shield Mastery feats chews up almost all of your heroic feats, with little room left for anything else. So for the second build, we'll try something different: a dwarf using warhammers (which don't get glancing blows) who is a little more tactics-oriented; this build is also designed to be exclusively S&B from lvl 3 on, so you can see some of the tradeoffs more clearly.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.23.01
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 21 Lawful Good Dwarf Female
(20 Paladin \ 1 Epic) 
Hit Points: 313
Spell Points: 260 
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 18
Reflex: 8
Will: 8

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 21)
Strength             16                    21
Dexterity             8                     8
Constitution         16                    16
Intelligence         10                    10
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma             14                    14

Level 1 (Paladin)
Feat: (Deity) Follower of the Sovereign Host
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 2 (Paladin)


Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Shield Mastery


Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 5 (Paladin)


Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Stunning Blow
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - To the Fore! (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Shield Combat (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Vicious Shield (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Shield Specialization I (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Shield Smash (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Shield Smash (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Shield Smash (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Stunning Shield (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Stunning Shield (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Stunning Shield (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Follow Up (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Follow Up (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Follow Up (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Holy Bastion (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Sacred Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Extra Lay on Hands (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Extra Lay on Hands (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Extra Lay on Hands (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Durable Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Durable Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Durable Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Slayer of Evil I (Rank 1)


Level 7 (Paladin)


Level 8 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 9 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Mastery


Level 10 (Paladin)


Level 11 (Paladin)


Level 12 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Shield Combat II (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Brutality (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Brutality (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Brutality (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Missile Shield (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Missile Shield (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Missile Shield (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Action Boost: Melee Power (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Action Boost: Melee Power (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Action Boost: Melee Power (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Fatal Bulwark (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Shield Charge (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Shield Charge (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Shield Charge (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Shield to the Face (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Disorienting Smash (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Disorienting Smash (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Shield Rush (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Shield Rush (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Shield Rush (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Armored Strength (Rank 1)


Level 13 (Paladin)


Level 14 (Paladin)


Level 15 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell


Level 16 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 17 (Paladin)


Level 18 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell


Level 19 (Paladin)


Level 20 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Vicious Shield II (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Pal) - Shield Champion (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Resilient Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Resilient Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Tenacious Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Tenacious Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Tenacious Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Courage of Heaven (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Slayer of Evil II (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Improved Courage of Heaven (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Turning (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Turning (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Turning (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Smite (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Divine Might (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Divine Might (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Divine Might (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Exalted Cleave (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Exalted Cleave (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Exalted Cleave (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Divine Sacrifice (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Vigor of Life (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Exalted Smite (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Vigor of Life (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Empowered Smite (Rank 1)


Level 21 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Overwhelming Critical

[Vincentthegerman001]

[QUOTE=unbongwah;5474286]Kundarak Vanguard: dwarf build which takes advantage of the +7% S&B DPS from Dwarf Fortress; the downside being it costs 18 APs so I had to make compromises in Sacred D. and KotC to get it. It also goes for Dreadnought for max sustained melee DPS. This version can be specced for either heavy picks or warhammers: the advantage of not using dwarven axes is it frees 3 feats (4 if you count PTHF); the downside is losing glancing blows.

Kundarak Vanguard
Paladin 20
Lawful Good Dwarf


Stats
               28pt     32pt     Level Up
               ----     ----     --------
Strength        16       16       4: STR
Dexterity        8        8       8: STR
Constitution    16       18      12: STR
Intelligence    10       10      16: STR
Wisdom           8        8      20: STR
Charisma        14       14      24: STR
                                 28: STR

Skills
          1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
         ------------------------------------------------------------
Intim     3  2     2     2     2     2     2     2     2     2     2  23
UMD       2     1     1     1     1     1     1     1     1     1     11
Heal      1                                                            1
         ------------------------------------------------------------
          8  2  2  2  2  2  2  2  2  2  2  2  2  2  2  2  2  2  2  2


Feats

 1        : Shield Mastery
 1 Deity  : Follower of: Sovereign Host
 3        : Power Attack
 6        : Stunning Blow
 6 Deity  : Unyielding Sovereignty
 9        : Improved Shield Mastery
12        : Improved Critical: Bludgeoning OR Piercing
15        : Improved Shield Bash
18        : Empower Healing Spell
21 Epic   : Overwhelming Critical
24 Epic   : Cleave
26 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
27 Epic   : Great Cleave OR Quicken Spell
28 Destiny: First Blood OR Elusive Target
29 Destiny: Dire Charge
30 Epic   : Epic Damage Reduction OR Quicken Spell
30 Legend : Scion of: Arborea


Enhancements (80 AP)

Vanguard (41 AP)

To the Fore!, Shield Combat I, Vicious Shield I, Shield Combat II, Vicious Shield II, Shield Champion
Shield Specialization, Shield Smash III
Shield Specialization, Brutality III, Stunning Shield II, Missile Shield III, Melee Power Boost III
Follow Up III, Fatal Bulwark, Shield Riposte III
(none)
Shield to the Face, Disorienting Smash II, Shield Charge III, Armored Strength

Dwarf (18 AP)

Dwarven Toughness, Dwarven Constitution
Pick and Hammer Training
Dwarven Tactics I, Child of the Mountain III
Stand Like Stone III
Dwarf Fortress III

Sacred Defender (11 AP)

Holy Bastion, Sacred Defense
Extra Lay On Hands III, Durable Defense III
Resilient Defense II
Tenacious Defense I

Knight of the Chalice (10 AP)

Slayer of Evil
Extra Turning II, Extra Smite II
Divine Might I, Exalted Cleave III

Leveling Guide

Van0 To the Fore!; Van1 Shield Smash I, II, III
SD0 Holy Bastion; SD1 Extra Lay On Hands I, II, III
SD1 Durable Defense I; SD0 Sacred Defense; Van1 Shield Specialization
Van0 Shield Combat I; Van2 Stunning Shield I; Van2 Shield Specialization
Van3 Follow Up I, II, III; Van2 Missile Shield I
Van0 Vicious Shield I; Van3 Shield Riposte I; Van3 Fatal Bulwark
Van2 Melee Power Boost I, II, III; Van2 Missile Shield II
Van2 Missile Shield III; Van3 Shield Riposte II, III; Van2 Stunning Shield II
Van2 Brutality I, II, III; SD1 Durable Defense II
SD1 Durable Defense III; SD2 Resilient Defense I, II; SD3 Tenacious Defense I
(Bank 4 AP)
Van0 Shield Combat II; Van5 Armored Strength; Van5 Shield to the Face; Van5 Shield Charge I, II, III
Van5 Disorienting Smash I, II; KoC0 Slayer of Evil; KoC1 Extra Smite I
KoC1 Extra Smite II; KoC1 Extra Turning I, II
KoC2 Divine Might I; KoC2 Exalted Cleave I, II, III
Dwf0 Dwarven Toughness; Dwf0 Dwarven Constitution
Dwf1 Pick and Hammer Training; Dwf2 Dwarven Tactics I; Dwf2 Child of the Mountain I
Van0 Vicious Shield II; Dwf2 Child of the Mountain II; Dwf3 Stand Like Stone I
Dwf3 Stand Like Stone II; Dwf2 Child of the Mountain III; Dwf3 Stand Like Stone III
Van0 Shield Champion; Dwf4 Dwarf Fortress I, II, III


Destiny (24 AP)

Legendary Dreadnought

Legendary Tactics III, Extra Action Boost II
Momentum Swing III, Imp. Power Attack
Lay Waste, Haste Boost III
Anvil of Thunder
Advancing Blows, Devastating Critical
Master's Blitz, Pulverizer

Twists of Fate (18 fate points)

Sense Weakness (Tier 4 Fury)
Legendary Shield Mastery (Tier 2 Sentinel)
Rejuvenation Cocoon (Tier 1 Primal)

Wait, if you're taking Exalted Cleave, why do you take Cleave and Great Cleave at all?

[unbongwah]

Wait, if you're taking Exalted Cleave, why do you take Cleave and Great Cleave at all?

You need Cleave feat in order to unlock Momentum Swing; since there's not enough APs to take Avenging Cleave (which would lock out T5 Vanguard anyway), it's up to you whether Gt Cleave is worthwhile to have an extra AoE atk. That's also part of why I didn't spec that build for THF chain w/d.axes; feats are pretty tight already.

[Hiro_Nogano]

EDIT: this post has been updated for U29.

Update 23 really buffed up paladins: Turbine introduced the Vanguard PrE, improved KotC and Sacred Defender, and upgraded the Holy Sword spell, making it one of the best DPS bonuses in DDO. There's never been a better time to play a classic S&B pally. This thread supplants my Sacred Defender builds; rather than retread everything I said there, I'll just spotlight some of the key changes lately. This thread will be devoted to pure pallies for the Vanguard capstone and the extra lvl 4 spell slots (Zeal, Holy Sword, CSW, Death Ward).

The main goals of any DDO tank build have always been good DPS, good survivability, and enough threat to hold onto mob aggro. U23 has really improved the DPS of paladins in general and S&B pallies in particular (thanks to Vanguard), while keeping the survivability and tanking capabilities they've always had. U23 also improved the defensive benefits of medium & heavy armor by improving PRR and adding MRR; in particular, MRR means you no longer have to feel pigeon-holed into having Evasion to get good protection from Reflex-based spell damage. EDIT: the U28 balance changes eliminated armor MRR, which makes other sources of MRR more important.

Now, all of that being said, my recommendation is that you are still better off using 2H weapons to start and switch to S&B later on. Why? Partly because the DPS bonuses for 2H weapons are pretty front-loaded: +1.5x STR mod to dmg; higher base weapon dmg; +10 dmg from Power Atk (after BAB 5+) vs +5 to 1H weapons. Partly because there are a number of good low-lvl 2H weapons to use, esp. Carnifex. And partly because you have few APs to spend early on, so it's better to split them between two PrEs (KotC and SD) rather than all three. And partly because Vanguard is a backloaded PrE, IMO, which doesn't start hitting its potential until lvl 12.

So this build presumes you use 2H weapons thru lvl 11, then switch to S&B and tier-5 Vanguard at lvl 12. For an example of a S&B pally starting from lvl 1, see ED37's VG pally thread. Or just rearrange the feat order & Enhancements yourself.

Sacred Vanguard (U29)
Paladin 20
Lawful Good Human


Stats
               28pt     32pt     Level Up
               ----     ----     --------
Strength        16       16       4: STR
Dexterity        8        8       8: STR
Constitution    14       16      12: STR
Intelligence    10       10      16: STR
Wisdom           8        8      20: STR
Charisma        16       16      24: STR
                                 28: STR

Skills
          1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
         ------------------------------------------------------------
Intim     4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Concent   2  2     2     2     2     2     2     2     2     2     2  22
UMD       2     1     1     1     1     1     1     1     1     1     11
Tumble    1                                                            1
         ------------------------------------------------------------
         12  3  3  3  3  3  3  3  3  3  3  3  3  3  3  3  3  3  3  3


Feats

 1        : Power Attack
 1 Human  : Two Handed Fighting
 1 Deity  : Follower of: Sovereign Host
 3        : Force of Personality
 6        : Improved Two Handed Fighting
 6 Deity  : Unyielding Sovereignty
 9        : Improved Critical: Slashing
12        : Greater Two Handed Fighting
12 Swap   : Exotic Weapon: Bastard Sword replaces Force of Personality
15        : Shield Mastery
18        : Improved Shield Mastery
21 Epic   : Overwhelming Critical
24 Epic   : Empower Healing Spell
26 Destiny: Guardian Angel OR Perfect Two Handed Fighting
27 Epic   : Epic Damage Reduction OR Stunning Blow
28 Destiny: Elusive Target OR Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
29 Destiny: Deific Warding OR Dire Charge
30 Epic   : Quicken Spell OR Improved Shield Bash
30 Legend : Scion of: Plane of Water OR Arborea


Spells


Cure Light Wounds, Divine Favor, Protection from Evil, Bless
Resist Energy, Angelskin, Remove Paralysis, <Any>
Cure Moderate Wounds, Prayer, Magic Circle Against Evil, Dispel Magic
Holy Sword, Zeal, Cure Serious Wounds, Death Ward


Enhancements (80 AP)

Vanguard (41 AP)

To the Fore!, Shield Combat I, Vicious Shield I, Shield Combat II, Vicious Shield II, Shield Champion
Shield Specialization, Shield Smash III
Shield Specialization, Stunning Shield III, Missile Shield III, Melee Power Boost III
Shield Specialization, Follow Up III, Fatal Bulwark, Shield Riposte III
(none)
Shield to the Face, Disorienting Smash II, Shield Charge III, Armored Strength

Knight of the Chalice (23 AP)

Slayer of Evil, Courage of Heaven, Slayer of Evil II, Improved Courage of Heaven
Extra Turning II, Extra Smite II
Divine Might III, Exalted Cleave III
Improved Restoration I, Divine Sacrifice I, Exalted Smite I
Empowered Smite

Sacred Defender (13 AP)

Holy Bastion, Sacred Defense
Extra Lay On Hands III, Durable Defense III
Inciting Defense II
Tenacious Defense III

Human (3 AP)

Damage Boost
Improved Recovery

Leveling Guide

Hum0 Damage Boost; Hum1 Improved Recovery; SD0 Holy Bastion
SD1 Extra Lay On Hands I, II, III; (Bank 1 AP)
SD1 Durable Defense I; SD0 Sacred Defense; SD1 Durable Defense II, III; SD2 Inciting Defense I
SD2 Inciting Defense II; SD3 Tenacious Defense I, II, III
KoC0 Slayer of Evil; KoC1 Extra Smite I, II; KoC1 Extra Turning I
KoC1 Extra Turning II; KoC0 Courage of Heaven; KoC2 Exalted Cleave I, II
KoC2 Exalted Cleave III; KoC2 Divine Might I
KoC2 Divine Might II, III
KoC3 Exalted Smite I; KoC3 Divine Sacrifice I; KoC0 Slayer of Evil II; KoC3 Improved Restoration I
KoC4 Empowered Smite; KoC4 Censure Demons; KoC4 Passion I
KoC3 Vigor of Life; KoC2 Melee Power Boost I, II
Reset Knight of the Chalice

Vanguard: To the Fore!, Shield Combat I, Vicious Shield I, Shield Combat II
Shield Specialization, Shield Smash III
Shield Specialization, Stunning Shield III, Missile Shield III, Melee Power Boost III
Shield Specialization, Follow Up III, Fatal Bulwark, Shield Riposte III
(none)
Armored Strength
Van5 Shield to the Face; Van5 Shield Charge I, II
Van5 Shield Charge III; Van5 Disorienting Smash I, II; KoC0 Slayer of Evil
KoC1 Extra Smite I, II; KoC1 Extra Turning I, II
KoC2 Exalted Cleave I, II, III; KoC0 Courage of Heaven
KoC2 Divine Might I, II
Van0 Vicious Shield II; KoC3 Divine Sacrifice I; KoC3 Exalted Smite I
KoC0 Slayer of Evil II; KoC2 Divine Might III; KoC3 Improved Restoration I
Van0 Shield Champion; KoC4 Empowered Smite; KoC0 Improved Courage of Heaven


Destiny (24 AP)

Divine Crusader

Endless Turning III, Interrogation, Purge the Wicked
Consecration III
Sacred Ground, Blessed Blades
No Regret, Crusade
Castigation, Heavenly Presence, Celestial Champion
Strike Down

Twists of Fate (18 fate points)

Grim Precision (Tier 3 Shadowdancer)
Legendary Shield Mastery (Tier 2 Sentinel)
Rejuvenation Cocoon (Tier 1 Primal)
Legendary Tactics (Tier 1 Dreadnought)

If you have a +2 INT tome at lvl 7, max Concentration and put remaining pts into Balance or Heal.

Epic feats: as you can see, I listed a lot of options, which will largely depend on whether you want to emphasize DPS or survivability; I list the survivability option first, DPS option second. As for your Scion choice: Arborea is the no-brainer DPS boost (+2 Enhancement bonus, +20 Melee Power); while Plane of Water is +20 MRR and +2d20 cold dmg, so it adds both survivability & DPS, but downside is needing to slot Glaciation gear (you can reach approx. 500 Glaciation Spellpower in current endgame, so approx. 125 cold dmg per hit).

The listed Twists are a best-case scenario and presumes you've leveled almost all of your EDs. But the only must-have IMO is Legendary Shield Mastery for the extra doublestrike & PRR; so fill in the rest as you see fit while leveling.

I'm sorry if this seems like a dense question, but why would you swap out Force of Personality instead of Improved or Greater THF if you are switching to S&B? I wouldn't think you would need the THF feats if you are switching to bastard swords. What am I missing?

[unbongwah]

Glancing blows apply to bastard swords and dwarven axes while single-wielded.

[Bacab]

Late to the party...

Ungbongwah, I warned that I would bug you about Paladin in my Returning Sorc build!

I have played the Two handed Fighter lives before (A lot) mainly as WF FVS and WF PLD and THF Acrobat...I would just Smash Cleave and Great Cleave etc...

So I kinda wanna do something different for 2 Paladin Lives.

My biggest problem...this toon has Completionist...and on Paladin, it seems really hard to fit this feat in (not a humble brag, I am actually considering not picking it, or picking it way later like level 15 or 18)

So I want to do a Sword and Board PLD. The closest to Sword and Board I have played was a Swashbuckling Bard which was stupidly fun.

I have random doubled up lives on random classes (WIZ, Sorc, Druid, Bard, Artificer)

Not planning on using a Lesser Heart, because I think the most efficient way would be load up on THF feats and swap those to Shield related feats later. I agree with Ungbongwah that Vangaurd gets good at level 12
Anyway, here are my ideas so far...

Human Paladin
Stats...Standard..Dump DEX and WIS, have 12 INT for skills and get good STR CON CHR
Feats
1 Power Attack
1(H) Cleave (Swap to Shield Mastery Later at level 12) or maybe not...I could use KotC Cleave until later...
3 Improved Shield Bash
6 Completionist
9 Improved Crit
12 Improved Shield Master
15 Bastard Sword or Tower Shield or something else?
18 Empower Heal (Though may want this earlier?)
21(not worried about Epic Feats...will probably TR right away at 20)

This toon has Torc and Concord Opp...Was thinking turtling with Leviks and Torc and C/O I could regain my SP.
I also have 3 Deathnips (1 old one...hope they let me trade it in one day for Tomes like a Dopant for green steel) and those neat Expanded Crit Sickles from my Swashbuckler Life...so they might be really good?
I do not have any nice Green Steel single handed weapons other than a C/O Warhammer which I use when turtling for SP.
I do have a Triple Pos Maul and Lit2 GSW
I can almost make another Tome of Legend Weapon (Iono which I would make)

Shields:
Death's Door, Fanion (useless on this build?), and I have enough Shield Pieces to make a Talon...

My thinking is...if I plan on mainly using a Talon over the Levik's except when SP Turtling...I really do not need Tower Shield Prof for that...

Also maybe Dwarf would be good since I will be using Deathnips, though I feel that Enhancements will be really tight?

If I did a Dwarf...here is my thinking for feats

1 Power Attack
3 Improved Shield Bash
6 Shield Master
9 Imp Crit
12 Improved Shield Mastery
15 ????Empower Heal????Completionist????
18 ????Empower Heal????Completionist????

[unbongwah]

Master's Touch scrolls grant tower shield proficiency, which is one reason why I like having UMD on pure pallies. No need to squander a feat.

TBH, I don't think Vanguard is a great choice for heroic leveling, for the reasons cited earlier in the thread: you're feat-constrained and AP-starved for a long time; and your best DPS bonuses are really backloaded. Although I suppose the silver lining is if you can slog your way thru the first 14-15 levels, you see a big jump in DPS: +10% atk speed from VG cores, T5 abilities like +10 MP & Shield Charge, Holy Sword + Zeal, etc. Deathnip becomes a 16-20/x5 weapon which is just insane. But it still feels to me like pally VG is meant primarily for epic tanking.

That being said, I've been itching to come up with a dwarven Onatar Vanguard since the new deity feats came out, even though I'm not sure you can hit high enough DCs for it to matter. But I've got more than one alt with a Mornh in its bank (thanks, Raiders Boxes!), so why not?

[Wonedream]

I really like this build you got. You always make great builds. I am going to borrow most of it, but at the moment I am focusing on a Sacred Defender to complete my collection. My Vangard Paladin is a smashing success, literally. Hits EE regularly and wins. He is a Bladeforged. For my Sacred Defender I am going with PDK, already got the +1 heart and am going to TR him once (he is currently human). So he will have 34 starting stat points and a past life in paladin. Most of my collect-able TPS farming toons just live one life up to level 30, and from there I just look for better and better stuff to finish them. There just isnt time to TR 56 toons. I have one Main Toon, and a few TR'd here and there.

So,

Nortain Bloodtin
PDK
Paladin 20
Sacred Defender
Sentinal


This build is basically heavily tanked up, but will use bastard sword, sheild, and THF. Best crits can get are x4, but DPS isnt his primary focus. It is tempting to use Khopeshs... my Vangard uses Khopesh and Shield and it works great. But PDK... Charisma on Bastard Sword... I think with proper weapons he can still manage to kill EE stuff (nightmare cheese from Thunderpeak.... if you can't get awesome DPS on a sacred defender sentinal uber tank... you can fall back on terrorizing your enemies with nightmare weapons :P).

I am thinking to hit 41 for Defender, 3 on PDK, a little into avenger, and a nice chunk into vangard. Will aim to get shield bash and attack speed rate up as much as possible from Vangard core without losing Sacred Defender caps. I am going to make it now... follower of Helm seems to make sense...

And off I go to rebuild him now.

[unbongwah]

But PDK... Charisma on Bastard Sword...

Drawback to CKT is it renders Div Might useless. But I have theory-crafted ideas for CHA+INT-based builds using Harper (KtA) instead of DM.

FLAVOR BUILD INCOMING

PDK Sentinel of Helm
Paladin 20
Lawful Good Purple Dragon Knight


Stats
               36pt     Tome     Level Up
               ----     ----     --------
Strength        14       +4       4: CHA
Dexterity        8       +4       8: CHA
Constitution    16       +4      12: CHA
Intelligence    16       +4      16: CHA
Wisdom           8       +4      20: CHA
Charisma        16       +4      24: CHA
                                 28: CHA

Feats

 1        : Shield Mastery
 1 PDK    : Combat Expertise
 1 Deity  : Follower of: Helm
 3        : Two Handed Fighting
 6        : Empower Healing Spell OR Improved Shield Bash
 6 Deity  : Ever Watchful
 9        : Improved Critical: Slashing
12        : Improved Shield Mastery
15        : Improved Two Handed Fighting
18        : Greater Two Handed Fighting
21 Epic   : Overwhelming Critical
24 Epic   : Quicken Spell OR Bulwark of Defense
26 Destiny: Perfect Two Handed Fighting
27 Epic   : Epic Damage Reduction
28 Destiny: Elusive Target
29 Destiny: Deific Warding
30 Epic   : Epic Fortitude OR Shield Deflection
30 Legend : Scion of: Plane of Earth


Enhancements (80 AP)

Sacred Defender (41 AP)

Holy Bastion, Sacred Defense, Divine Righteousness, Redemption, Glorious Stand, Eternal Defender

Extra Lay On Hands III, Durable Defense III, Sacred Armor Mastery III
Instinctive Defense I, Bulwark Aura III, Sacred Shield Mastery III
Resistance Aura III, Tenacious Defense III
Reinforced Armor III, Swift Defense, Hardy Defense III
Reinforced Shield III, Harbored by Light III

Vanguard (21 AP)

To the Fore!, Shield Combat I, Vicious Shield I, Shield Combat II

Shield Smash III, Unbalancing Shove I
Stunning Shield III, Missile Shield II, Melee Power Boost III
Follow Up III, Fatal Bulwark

Knight of the Chalice (8 AP)

Slayer of Evil

Extra Turning II, Extra Smite II
Exalted Cleave III

Harper Agent (7 AP)

Agent of Good I

Harper Enchantment, Traveler's Toughness II
Know the Angles II

Purple Dragon Knight (3 AP)

Damage Boost

Cormyrean Knight Training


Destiny (24 AP)

Unyielding Sentinel

Commanding Presence I, Shield Prowess III
Block Energy III, Legendary Shield Mastery III
Renewal III, Endless Lay On Hands III
(none)
Hardened III, Strength of Vitality III
Undying Vanguard

Twists of Fate (35 fate points)

Wild Weapons (Tier 4 Fury)
Grim Precision (Tier 3 Shadowdancer)
Imp. Combat Expertise (Tier 2 Dreadnought)
Extra Action Boost (Tier 1 Dreadnought)
Rejuvenation Cocoon (Tier 1 Primal)

[Kronik]

Great thread, just found it.

Made a Dwarven Max Vanguard build similar to yours but ended up sticking with Dwarven Axes, Throw Your Weight Around and Dwarf Fortress Enhancement.

Due to this choice, I am a little light on HP. Max upgraded my Con but am left short on the SD tree. Still only level 20 so I am hoping I can recover some HP in my Epic levels.

DPS is amazing so far and atm not having problems with the low 800 HP at 20, but haven't tanked any EE raids yet so I guess I have more testing to do.

Any thoughts?

[unbongwah]

Truth be told, TYWA is a trap on this build, IMO, not least because Divine Might won't boost your DPS in that case. I'm not sure any of the racial trees are worth a heavy investment, but I definitely would skip TYWA and stick with Dwarf Fortress as my dwarf pally does. You get +20% HPs from Tenacious Defense and +4% from Child of the Mountain; that's a pretty significant boost, particularly if you're undergeared.

[Wonedream]

Drawback to CKT is it renders Div Might useless. But I have theory-crafted ideas for CHA+INT-based builds using Harper (KtA) instead of DM.

FLAVOR BUILD INCOMING

PDK Sentinel of Helm
Paladin 20
Lawful Good Purple Dragon Knight


Stats
               36pt     Tome     Level Up
               ----     ----     --------
Strength        14       +4       4: CHA
Dexterity        8       +4       8: CHA
Constitution    16       +4      12: CHA
Intelligence    16       +4      16: CHA
Wisdom           8       +4      20: CHA
Charisma        16       +4      24: CHA
                                 28: CHA

Feats

 1        : Shield Mastery
 1 PDK    : Combat Expertise
 1 Deity  : Follower of: Helm
 3        : Two Handed Fighting
 6        : Empower Healing Spell OR Improved Shield Bash
 6 Deity  : Ever Watchful
 9        : Improved Critical: Slashing
12        : Improved Shield Mastery
15        : Improved Two Handed Fighting
18        : Greater Two Handed Fighting
21 Epic   : Overwhelming Critical
24 Epic   : Quicken Spell OR Bulwark of Defense
26 Destiny: Perfect Two Handed Fighting
27 Epic   : Epic Damage Reduction
28 Destiny: Elusive Target
29 Destiny: Deific Warding
30 Epic   : Epic Fortitude OR Shield Deflection
30 Legend : Scion of: Plane of Earth


Enhancements (80 AP)

Sacred Defender (41 AP)

Holy Bastion, Sacred Defense, Divine Righteousness, Redemption, Glorious Stand, Eternal Defender

Extra Lay On Hands III, Durable Defense III, Sacred Armor Mastery III
Instinctive Defense I, Bulwark Aura III, Sacred Shield Mastery III
Resistance Aura III, Tenacious Defense III
Reinforced Armor III, Swift Defense, Hardy Defense III
Reinforced Shield III, Harbored by Light III

Vanguard (21 AP)

To the Fore!, Shield Combat I, Vicious Shield I, Shield Combat II

Shield Smash III, Unbalancing Shove I
Stunning Shield III, Missile Shield II, Melee Power Boost III
Follow Up III, Fatal Bulwark

Knight of the Chalice (8 AP)

Slayer of Evil

Extra Turning II, Extra Smite II
Exalted Cleave III

Harper Agent (7 AP)

Agent of Good I

Harper Enchantment, Traveler's Toughness II
Know the Angles II

Purple Dragon Knight (3 AP)

Damage Boost

Cormyrean Knight Training


Destiny (24 AP)

Unyielding Sentinel

Commanding Presence I, Shield Prowess III
Block Energy III, Legendary Shield Mastery III
Renewal III, Endless Lay On Hands III
(none)
Hardened III, Strength of Vitality III
Undying Vanguard

Twists of Fate (35 fate points)

Wild Weapons (Tier 4 Fury)
Grim Precision (Tier 3 Shadowdancer)
Imp. Combat Expertise (Tier 2 Dreadnought)
Extra Action Boost (Tier 1 Dreadnought)
Rejuvenation Cocoon (Tier 1 Primal)

Hmmm... I was just writing up on what to do to TR my Pala... this is interesting!

So Charisma for damage, Intel for boost.

I lose this though

"Shield gains +1 critical threat range, +1 critical multiplier, +1(W), and additional +5% (total 15%) Combat Style bonus to Melee Attack Speed."

After making a pure Vanguard Bladeforged, I find that shield can be really effective to bring up DPS with that crit and speed bonus. I might not get the full +20%, but even 15% feels better then 10%. Would adding half my intelligence to damage beat this?

Supposing I reach intelligence 60, which would be challenging for this kind of build, that lands in +25/2 for +12 damage.

The shields I think will hit harder when gaining a +1 crit and going off 5% faster with bashing boosts. Plus he gets to roar more often, that is so... like the original character! I am gonna borrow from this though and try to merge it with a 41 Defender / 31 Vanguard mix. Your insights are always very useful!

[unbongwah]

You asked specifically about a Sacred Defender / Unyielding Sentinel combo. SD capstone costs 41 APs, leaving only 39 for your other PrEs. If you went 41 SD / 31 VG / 3 PDK for CKT, that's only 5 left - not enough to KtA, which is the whole point to being CHA+INT-based. So you give up that lvl 18 VG core; or you give up the DC / dmg bonus from KtA and Exalted Cleave. I felt the AP spread was the least bad option for what you requested.

I told you it was a flavor build. Otherwise you might as well stick with a more conventional DPS-oriented VG, IMO.

[Wonedream]

You asked specifically about a Sacred Defender / Unyielding Sentinel combo. SD capstone costs 41 APs, leaving only 39 for your other PrEs. If you went 41 SD / 31 VG / 3 PDK for CKT, that's only 5 left - not enough to KtA, which is the whole point to being CHA+INT-based. So you give up that lvl 18 VG core; or you give up the DC / dmg bonus from KtA and Exalted Cleave. I felt the AP spread was the least bad option for what you requested.

I told you it was a flavor build. Otherwise you might as well stick with a more conventional DPS-oriented VG, IMO.

Then I would end up with 2 Vanguards, Ttankk Crush Crush and Nortian Bloodtin. And my collection would be missing Sacred Defender..

Off course I could just switch them :P Bladeforged probably make better defenders anyways with Scribing Mark etc.. but that means losing core tier 5 on Vanguard, which seems to be the best splash option I can see when those shields are bashing 50% of the time and dealing crits stacks on crits (x2 range. x5 damage from holy sword). Not sure if improved crits: bludgeoning would extend that range even further, but probably not worth it on a feat starved paladin.

Ttankk Crush Crush is doing great in EE, smashing up to the enemies and hounding them with shield stuns.

Nortain Bloodtin has great defense, but as I have him now he has the divine might and exhalted cleave and his DPS isn't like Ttankk's. He might not be the best S & B DPS melee, but he will be among the toughest. Still, scrambling to get that DPS up as much as possible despite the Defender prestige constraint, I am gonna try giving up 2 feats somehow to grab cleave so I can twist Momentum into Sentinel Destiny... I figure he should be tough enough since Sentinel barely adds anything to DPS, having more cleave combat moves seems effective and fun both. He will probably live long enough to see them used regularly. Is there a better twist to take running in Sentinel to pump up DPS for mobs and bosses?

[unbongwah]

The problem with a BF Vanguard (if you want to call it that): you need to spend at least 7 APs for Recon SLA and will most likely spend 11 to minimize the CD; at which point you might as well spend 5 more APs for Power of the Forge (PotF). Then you spend 41 in VG (or SD) and suddenly...oops, you only have 25 to 32 APs left for your other two PrEs.

This is part of why I prefer human or PDK for pally VG: only 1-5 APs into your racial tree gets you a bunch of useful goodies (i.e., Dmg Boost, first rank of heal amp, CKT if CHA-based PDK); leaving plenty of APs free for the pally PrEs. Add in the extra feat(s) - PDK VG pally is effectively three feats ahead of BF thanks to racial bonus feat, free b.sword prof from Helm, and not needing Adamantine Body feat (which is enough to buy the THF chain) - and it's clearly the better choice, IMO.

[Bechtinger]

Have you tried a Vanguard Pally in Reaper on Lamaland? Is it still worth running. Im a bit afraid it could be too low dps and too low defense to be effectively working, so it will be a bad tank and bad dps.... (can't test it, currently on bard life...)

[Phatal1]

Has anyone tested out the new Deity feats? Follower of Onatar with warhammers? I was TR'ing my dwarf pally and seeing if it would be wise to stick dwarf and test that out or go human this time around