Champion of the Gods

[RumbIe]

Looking for a build to TR into. Current is an Evoker build. I'm bummed I can't find one that is EE effective else I would like to stay evoker, but this one looks interesting.

A couple of questions:

- Instead of 20 CHA base why not lose just 2 points and up STR that way you can go with Overwhelming Critical which would be a nice addition no?
- If you want short swords you can keep the proficiency if you go human with monk enhancements right? Basic Ninja training. Then you'd get an extra feat.
- I really haven't played around with heavy armor versus evasion much. Old habits of splashing monk die hard. Is heavy armor comparable to evasion? Is it better?
- I'm a ways off from 2 TF short swords. I have 13 characters in my stable so prioritizing mats is always hard. I might be able to get a tier 2 one going in short order. Which would you pick? I also have a raiders reward box on this toon. I could go Celestial? Or woudl Balizarde be better (I already have Twilight)
- Related to the last question is most of your dps coming from your TF weapons or more from your build? Meaning would I be gimped if I didn't have the 2 TF SS or can I make it pretty beefy just with build alone?

Lastly what was your leveling progression?

Thanks

[RumbIe]

I'm an idiot. I see you have overwhelming crit and forgot the prerequisites changed. Ignore that one question from me.

[Caprice]

Human can't go with Vulkoor as the diety choice, so the 3 Righteous Weapon enhancements won't apply nor will the FvS innate bonuses. Each +1 enhancement bonus on your weapon translates into 3 spellpower (via the Implement bonus, assuming you have a weapon with spellpower or a spellpower augment), so that drops 5 attack, 5 damage, and 9 universal spellpower. It's not a make-or-break loss IMO but keep it in mind.

Heavy armor seems to be considered generally superior to Evasion now, especially in EEs where there's so much physical damage. Evasion is still somewhat better mitigation against magic damage over time than MRR is (assuming that you have a good enough Reflex save & preferably no fail 1s), but it is not leaps and bounds better. Heavy armor is better at reducing physical damage than Dodge-based builds. But one strong advantage of Heavy Armor is that it does a better job of preventing 1-shot kills since it reduces the spike damage on every hit (physical or magical), where Light/Robe PRR & higher Dodge will let big hits through intermittently. If you have poor Reflex saves (not a problem here) or don't have no-fail saves on 1s via Feat or ED (which I don't see here), Evasion builds can have the same issue with big magical damage spikes too due to failed saves.

Celestia's Light damage typing is broken by the Righteous Weapon enhancements for a Drow. This means that it no longer bypasses DR and no longer benefits from the Light damage vulnerability granted by Shield of Condemnation procs. It's still a good weapon but that is one of its perks otherwise. If you are running as Human this is not an issue since Righteous Weapon doesn't apply to shortswords.

You won't be Centered with Balizarde and thus lose all of your monk & Stance benefits, which is not a problem on a Heavy Armor version but would be on the OP centered version. You also won't get Righteous Weapon or FvS benefits with Balizarde on any build since no one gets rapiers as a divine weapon.

If you aren't buried in TF mats then you probably don't have a Meridian Fragment handy, in which case you would probably be better off with the 1st Degree Burns & Dragons Edge option, and drop in a cheap spellpower augment to activate the implement bonus until you can replace/upgrade with the final stuff. There are rumors that epic Greensteel is coming and will offer a new path for acquiring endgame weapons, so you may find something better in there by the time you have the character capped and ready.

Since it sounds like this is an as-yet somewhat undeveloped character I would suggest that you aim for the Human 17/3 Heavy armor & Longsword (Sov Host) alternative mentioned earlier. I probably wouldn't use a raider's box on a Tinah, but you could grab a pair of Oathblades from Estar comms and do well, or more likely an Oathblade and something you can get spellpower/implement on.

[RumbIe]

Human can't go with Vulkoor as the diety choice, so the 3 Righteous Weapon enhancements won't apply nor will the FvS innate bonuses. Each +1 enhancement bonus on your weapon translates into 3 spellpower (via the Implement bonus, assuming you have a weapon with spellpower or a spellpower augment), so that drops 5 attack, 5 damage, and 9 universal spellpower. It's not a make-or-break loss IMO but keep it in mind.

Definitely understand this part. I'd have to go Longsword if I went human to get righteous weapon enhancements. I do have a Tinah already. Happened to pull one long ago. Never see anyone clamoring for one in reward boxes. Are they any decent? Maybe one of those and a TF LS

Heavy armor seems to be considered generally superior to Evasion now, especially in EEs where there's so much physical damage. Evasion is still somewhat better mitigation against magic damage over time than MRR is (assuming that you have a good enough Reflex save & preferably no fail 1s), but it is not leaps and bounds better. Heavy armor is better at reducing physical damage than Dodge-based builds. But one strong advantage of Heavy Armor is that it does a better job of preventing 1-shot kills since it reduces the spike damage on every hit (physical or magical), where Light/Robe PRR & higher Dodge will let big hits through intermittently. If you have poor Reflex saves (not a problem here) or don't have no-fail saves on 1s via Feat or ED (which I don't see here), Evasion builds can have the same issue with big magical damage spikes too due to failed saves.

Thanks. Though If I went Heavy Armor I also loose out on the Earth Stance crit multiplier bonus and I'd see no reason to have monk as you pointed out. I guess it would also free up some feats. Not sure which ones I'd pick up.

Celestia's Light damage typing is broken by the Righteous Weapon enhancements for a Drow. This means that it no longer bypasses DR and no longer benefits from the Light damage vulnerability granted by Shield of Condemnation procs. It's still a good weapon but that is one of its perks otherwise. If you are running as Human this is not an issue since Righteous Weapon doesn't apply to shortswords.

Is this because by picking Vulkoor (if I went drow) would change my alignment to Neutral Evil because I worship him and it only works for Good aligned characters? If that's the case I had no idea it changed your alignment. Or is it just a bug?

You won't be Centered with Balizarde and thus lose all of your monk & Stance benefits, which is not a problem on a Heavy Armor version but would be on the OP centered version. You also won't get Righteous Weapon or FvS benefits with Balizarde on any build since no one gets rapiers as a divine weapon.

Good point. Balizarde is out.

Since it sounds like this is an as-yet somewhat undeveloped character I would suggest that you aim for the Human 17/3 Heavy armor & Longsword (Sov Host) alternative mentioned earlier. I probably wouldn't use a raider's box on a Tinah, but you could grab a pair of Oathblades from Estar comms and do well, or more likely an Oathblade and something you can get spellpower/implement on.

It is undeveloped right now. Just thinking about what I can do next life. I may actually go with the monk splash and stay light armor. I just wanted to get a better understanding of all the aspects of the build. I love using other people's builds, but one day want to make my own from what I've learned. Detailed responses like yours and the OPs build are very helpful.

If I went drow and didn't have the TF mats and had to go with maybe one TF and an offhand maybe epic envenomed or something would my dps be crazy gimped? Still wondering if the weapon makes the build or the build is powerful as a stand alone.

If I did go human and splashed you mentioned 17/3. What do you get with 17 FVS (besides wings which I do enjoy) that maybe you couldn't get with say a 16/4 fvs/pally splash to open another tier of KoTC or a 16/3/1 with fighter for haste boost.

Thanks

[Caprice]

You can't be Centered with Longswords without a 2 Feat investment. You need both Weapon Focus: Slashing (as a pre-requisite) and Whirling Steel Strike. So by going Human you actually lose 1 feat on the centered version of the build, and there's nothing on the list I'd really want to lose (except possibly Ruin @27, but I wouldn't spend that on a regular feat).

I cannot recommend using your raider's box on Tinah. It's a good weapon but some of the other CitW options are basically irreplaceable (e.g. Pinion, Sireth, and to a lesser degree Celestia and Balizarde). If you might ever Reincarnate into a non-Longsword build you will likely regret not saving the box for something better. I would stick with lesser weapons until you can get your TF. You will probably have more problems than average with EEs without the TF because this is a hybrid, but you shouldn't have major problems with EH or playing a supporting role in an EE group.

The problem with Celestia and Vulkoor Righteous Weapons is just a bug. It's been around for a really long time and there's no sign that it will be fixed. Celestia is a fine weapon even with the bug, so it may be worth grabbing anyway if you go with the Drow version.

Andoris suggests feats for the 17/3 build idea in this post.

16/4 or 16/3/1 both seem fine to me as alternate splits, but FvS16 doesn't add that much over FvS15 (a meh level 8 spell slot, SPs, and saves) so you might consider FvS15/Pld3/Ftr2 or 15/4/1 instead. Either gives you more options in enhancements. Ftr2 gives another feat; Paladin 4 gives trash bonuses like Turn Undead, some minor SP, and a level 1 spell, but it also would make you a bit more future proof if the Divine Grace "nerf" ever comes through (i.e. a proposed change that limits the save bonus based on Paladin class levels; Pld3 will allow 8, Pld4 will allow 11).

The only thing that really matters that the 17/3 adds is Wings. You gain some spell slots and SP, and a caster level, but none of it is all that significant.

[RumbIe]

Thanks again. Sorry I should have clarified that if I went longsword I would only do so in the 17/3 heavy armor build. Not a centered build. So if I did it with the 17/3 build I thought I'd have a least one extra feat right because 3 were used in forms (adept, master and grandmaster), but my math was wrong.

I already have a Tinah. I got it from an end chest drop. Since my current build is an evoker I don't have much melee power/damage going for me so I was just wondering if it's decent if I am built for it. (i.e. 17/3 heavy plate non-centered human)

I may just stick with drow. I've got quite a few humans running right now and a drow might mix things up a bit. I can always put together an epic envenomed ss or star of day from cleric comms instead of raiding my raiders box right now.

Thanks again for all the detailed answers.

[Caprice]

Yes, you would be one feat ahead on a 17/3 Human. The OP build actually only takes Adept and Master of Forms; Grandmaster is decent but Master is where the really nice bonuses kick in. However Monk 2 grants 2 feats, so those "cancel out". Andoris is recommending Enlarge for the extra feat and I agree with that choice. Enlarge is convenient in general and extremely nice for solo healing the larger area quests/raids (e.g. Fire on Thunder Peaks, Fall of Truth). It's especially fun with Rejuvenation Cocoon since Cocoon does not require Line of Sight to cast.

I was cautioning you against grabbing a second Tinah. IMO it is better than most randomly generated weapons but that's about it. It has a slightly better base damage profile than a normal epic longsword (2.5[1d10] vs 2[1d8]) and Supreme Good is a great weapon modifier since almost nothing we fight is Good, but those are the main things going for it. Crushing Wave is actually good DPS over time on paper, but since it is a low proc chance (5%) and takes time to do its damage its easily wasted on a nearly dead enemy. The DC for Freezing Ice is too low for Epic content so it is essentially a 0.25% chance per hit (5% proc chance * 5% chance that the NPC will roll a 1) so I don't consider it useful. Dragon Bane is only useful against Dragons, and while it is a good bonus against them TF has a stronger version of the Bane too. So most of the bonuses are pretty marginal. A tier 1 TF weapon (ML:24) should out DPS a Tinah handily if you can afford the 80 ingots and 60 CoVs.

I like the ML:20 Oathblade a little bit more than Tinah, but I bet the Tinah actually parses as slightly better DPS. It's just nice to actually have modifiers that work consistently. FWIW the Oathblade is a great choice for caster Divines to have as a swap for a little melee DPS, when you don't need a spellpower/DC weapon in hand; it improves Saves, has Keen so you don't need the IC:Slash feat, and the Vorpal proc helps more when your melee DPS is terrible.

I have an older Shoikan build (mentioned in the OP) that I recently started revisiting and my planned weapon path for that was Retribution -> Oathblade -> TF tier 1. Part of my answering you is also me thinking through what I am going to do to "fix" that character now. Thank you for nudging me into thinking that through!

For Drow your epic short sword choices are spot on. The Epic Envenomed Blade is fantastic in general and very appropriate to a worshipper of the Scorpion God.

[RumbIe]

Thanks again for all the help. Given the OP's build what would you suggest for level progression? I'm sure that you have to pay attention in some areas given the monk extra feats and what you can pick there.

[RumbIe]

I tossed it in the planner (I thought the planner wasn't updated, but seems ok) and have the following progression which allows for all the feats mentioned. Only a 2nd life so I dropped my CHA by 1 to spread more points around.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.23.01
DDO Character Planner Home Page

fvs drow pally monk
Level 28 Lawful Good Drow Male
(4 Paladin \ 2 Monk \ 14 Favored Soul \ 8 Epic) 
Hit Points: 367
Spell Points: 2348 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 29
Reflex: 26
Will: 24

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(30 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 28)
Strength             14                    18
Dexterity            13                    17
Constitution         13                    17
Intelligence         10                    12
Wisdom                8                    12
Charisma             19                    29

Level 1 (Favored Soul)
Feat: (Deity) Follower of Vulkoor
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Favored Soul


Level 2 (Favored Soul)


Level 3 (Favored Soul)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Spell


Level 4 (Favored Soul)
Ability Raise: CHA


Level 5 (Favored Soul)
Feat: (Favored Soul Bonus) Energy Resistance: Electricity


Level 6 (Favored Soul)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell


Level 7 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Precision


Level 8 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 9 (Favored Soul)
Feat: (Selected) Adept of Forms


Level 10 (Paladin)


Level 11 (Paladin)


Level 12 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: CHA
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons


Level 13 (Paladin)


Level 14 (Favored Soul)


Level 15 (Favored Soul)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Favored Soul)
Ability Raise: CHA
Feat: (Favored Soul Bonus) Energy Resistance: Fire


Level 17 (Favored Soul)


Level 18 (Favored Soul)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 19 (Favored Soul)


Level 20 (Favored Soul)
Ability Raise: CHA


Level 21 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Master of Forms


Level 22 (Epic)


Level 23 (Epic)


Level 24 (Epic)
Ability Raise: CHA
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Overwhelming Critical


Level 25 (Epic)


Level 26 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting


Level 27 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Ruin


Level 28 (Epic)
Ability Raise: CHA
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Hellball

[Doutrinador]

You can.. however, I would make a pile of changes if you are not drow as you no longer have short swords as a favored weapon. As a PDK can you take Sovereign host or are you stuck with Amaunator. If you can take Sovereign host you can take blades of whirling steel and be centered with long swords. If not, then you are really playing a different build to make it work.

If you can't get a favored weapon that you can be centered with, either drop the bonuses in warpriest (and spend the ap elsewhere), or drop the monk levels for fighter levels and go heavy armor.

Either way, it will take significant changes to make it work.

I tried to get sovereign in a PDK but could not ( only avaliable was amaunator).

[Andoris]

I tried to get sovereign in a PDK but could not ( only avaliable was amaunator).

Good to know.. thank you for testing!

[Andoris]

Caprice, thanks for answering Rumbles questions.. I forgot to mark this as a subscribed thread and didn't see the activity until now... Sorry.

I need to agree with Caprice in the strongest language possible.. DO NOT WASTE A RAIDERS BOX ON TINAH! you will regret it. Honestly, these days I would almost say it is not worth using a raiders box on anything but Celestia (unless you already have two).

As for Heavy Armor vs. Centered.. for me is it more a matter of Defense vs Offense. You gain a fair amount of offense from Master of Forms and spamming Fists of Iron. While the Heavy Armor version has higher defense, I haven't had issue with any content in the game with the Centered version (just don't get hit by a EE deathknight in Mod ).

When discussing weapon choice, TF is clearly superior, but is not needed. If materials are short I would recommend a single tier 2 weapon with 1st degree burns (it helps your spell damage too) and dragons edge. If that isn't possible any good shortsword will work (Drow weapons, a good lvl 20 star of the day, Epic Envemomed, etc.. ) Most of the melee dps really comes from the destiny (Divine Crusader), the weapons just complement that.

On Level progression it looks like I took Monk at levels 7 and 11, but if I was doing it again I might try to take it earlier as Precision and TWF were my feat choices, which if I took earlier would give me more flexibility with feat choices should I choose to make build changes in the future. For the most part though. Start with FvS to unlock the metamagic feats, take Pally fairly early to boosts BAB so you can qualify for TWF line feats and Improved Critical, and make sure your monk feats land were you want them.

One last note -- If you are going to be running a lot of MoDs I would highly recommend that you get your hands on some Celestia's and change your Warpriest enhancements so you don't have anything in the Righteous Weapons line (they break Celestia as Caprice mentioned above). The PRR breaking feature of Celestia is far more DPS than even tier 3 Thunderforged against those deathknights. Those 6 ap could easily be dumped into Toughness, Inflame, and Energy Absorption (that's what I did while I was running EE MoD with the toon regularly at least).


Again, sorry for the delay in response.

[Andoris]

I tossed it in the planner (I thought the planner wasn't updated, but seems ok) and have the following progression which allows for all the feats mentioned. Only a 2nd life so I dropped my CHA by 1 to spread more points around.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.23.01
DDO Character Planner Home Page

fvs drow pally monk
Level 28 Lawful Good Drow Male
(4 Paladin \ 2 Monk \ 14 Favored Soul \ 8 Epic) 
Hit Points: 367
Spell Points: 2348 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 29
Reflex: 26
Will: 24

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(30 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 28)
Strength             14                    18
Dexterity            13                    17
Constitution         13                    17
Intelligence         10                    12
Wisdom                8                    12
Charisma             19                    29

Level 1 (Favored Soul)
Feat: (Deity) Follower of Vulkoor
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Favored Soul


Level 2 (Favored Soul)


Level 3 (Favored Soul)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Spell


Level 4 (Favored Soul)
Ability Raise: CHA


Level 5 (Favored Soul)
Feat: (Favored Soul Bonus) Energy Resistance: Electricity


Level 6 (Favored Soul)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell


Level 7 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Precision


Level 8 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 9 (Favored Soul)
Feat: (Selected) Adept of Forms


Level 10 (Paladin)


Level 11 (Paladin)


Level 12 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: CHA
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons


Level 13 (Paladin)


Level 14 (Favored Soul)


Level 15 (Favored Soul)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Favored Soul)
Ability Raise: CHA
Feat: (Favored Soul Bonus) Energy Resistance: Fire


Level 17 (Favored Soul)


Level 18 (Favored Soul)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 19 (Favored Soul)


Level 20 (Favored Soul)
Ability Raise: CHA


Level 21 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Master of Forms


Level 22 (Epic)


Level 23 (Epic)


Level 24 (Epic)
Ability Raise: CHA
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Overwhelming Critical


Level 25 (Epic)


Level 26 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting


Level 27 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Ruin


Level 28 (Epic)
Ability Raise: CHA
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Hellball

I am curious why you went with 4 Pally / 14 FvS over 3 Pally / 15 FvS?

The extra level of Pally only gets you +1 Fort save and 1 first level spell, and while Divine Favor is nice on a lvl 9+ pally, it is only +1 damage at level 4. To get that you give up either Resurrection (bad idea) or Cure Serious, Mass (loss of flexibility as a healer if needed).

Am I missing something or are you trying to access tier 4 Sacred Defender Enhancements?

[Doutrinador]

[QUOTE=Andoris;5532477]Good to know.. thank you for testing![/QUOTE
A 18 fvs/2 fighter PDK with kolpesh wil work ?

[Andoris]

Good to know.. thank you for testing!

A 18 fvs/2 fighter PDK with kolpesh wil work ?

Anything can work.. but what are you trying to do?

I am not seeing a lot of benefit out of 18/2 PDK Khopesh build but maybe there is a specific need or reason you want to go that route....

[Doutrinador]

Anything can work.. but what are you trying to do?

I am not seeing a lot of benefit out of 18/2 PDK Khopesh build but maybe there is a specific need or reason you want to go that route....

I need an iconic build ( hate low heroics) / dont have a lesser heart/ want to do this build or somthing like that (caster melee hybrid) and Always wanted to see a warpriest in epics with the SLA.

[Andoris]

I need an iconic build ( hate low heroics) / dont have a lesser heart/ want to do this build or somthing like that (caster melee hybrid) and Always wanted to see a warpriest in epics with the SLA.

How about 17 Fvs / 2 Ftr / 1 wiz for a feat or arty for some trap skills and 30% bonus xp.. you should be able to max disable, split leftovers between Search and Spellcraft.

Alternatively, you could go 17 FvS / 3 Ftr for Stalwart stance.. or 14-15 FvS / 2-3 Fighter / 3 Ranger for 10% bonus off hand attacks

[Doutrinador]

How about 17 Fvs / 2 Ftr / 1 wiz for a feat or arty for some trap skills and 30% bonus xp.. you should be able to max disable, split leftovers between Search and Spellcraft.

Alternatively, you could go 17 FvS / 3 Ftr for Stalwart stance.. or 14-15 FvS / 2-3 Fighter / 3 Ranger for 10% bonus off hand attacks

Thx, the ranger split would be nice.

Tring today

[Doutrinador]

Ranger 4 will give me rams might

[Andoris]

Ranger 4 will give me rams might

While +3 damage is nice.. you have to balance that against Defender stance, as you don't want to go below 14 FvS (imo, if you don't have a quickened Resurrection -- you can't call yourself a divine.)