The Quivering Palm Experiment has failed.

[Mayen]

Now that we have had time to play and test under real game instances I feel that I can pronounce that current Quivering Palm method is close to worthless in all but the easiest content. Current max DCs for the first attempt on QP range from about 56 to 63 under perfect build conditions. Those numbers have a hard time working in top end epic hard content and do not work in epic elite. Now that we have rogues, wizards, sorcs, favored souls, clerics and especially bards that can all have instant kills in the 70+ range (and some well beyond that) is it not time to remove that block that was added to monks and quivering palm.

Expecting the first 2,3 or 4 pushes of QP to do nothing but bring the DC of the next try just means that the first 2, 3 or 4 pushes never happen. It does not flow with the style of this game and the muscle memory style of it's playerbase. If most players are like me, they use an ability such as that in an attempt to have it work on the mob that they need it to work on, not to que up on a creature they hope passes so they can have a working number for the key mob ahead.

I would like to see the experiment laid to rest and the shatter/combat mastery values returned to quivering palm formula. If something else has to happen to adjust the power level of this ability look at adjusting the timer or ki cost please. Both of those keep the ability as a tool in the monks toolbox for which right now it is not.

Thank you
Aleith of Sarlona

[Monkey-Boy]

The old DC with a 30 second timer would have been fine.

[bbqzor]

I have to agree, this ability needs a fix. Right now its basically not worth using, anytime it would function you could easily win without it. There are several problems with the current implementation.

First, the current version plays very poorly. The "+4 on a pass" mechanic is counter-intuitive and inconsistent, both of which make it very awkward to use. Either you use it only one one sort of target (like only casters) and just wait for them to come up, hoping it works occasionally. Or, you use it on "trash mobs" as soon as the cd is up and hoping they pass, so you can then buff it up to use on a real target (like a specific dangerous mob) so they can fail.

The first method simply results in the cooldown and ki cost being greatly inflated from their actual values. If you had, say, DC 51 on QP (10 base, 10 for 20 monk, 25 for wis 50, 6 for legendary tactics) and you were running upper end quests on EH you might need a 65+ to reliably land it. That means 3-4 fails before each pass. This basically means the ability is a 120-150 ki cost on a 24-30 sec cd... very inflated. And probably longer than that amount of time if you pick and choose only targets you hope fail the save rather than immediately hitting any mob as the timer comes up. It avoids a miscellaneous mob failing the save early ruining your stacks, but draws out the length of time between uses as you wait on specific targets.

If you simply hit any mob as soon as the cd is up, in order to power up the +4 dc stacks as quickly as possible, you then gamble with the ability working before you want it to. This keeps the cooldown closer to the 30s mark, but the trade off is roughly half the "intended" uses will fire too early... again inflating it to be exceptionally long and costly. This results in more successful QPs per unit time, but applies them against essentially random targets, which may or may not actually help much.

Either way you approach the ability in actual play, it becomes very expensive, time consuming, and unreliable. Any one of those is a hindrance for players trying to use an ability... all three is a death sentence. With a cost approaching 200 ki and 30+ seconds of time, simply to gamble on a single actual use with little or no influence over which mob is even the target, there is no reason to make any investment in it whatsoever. Its simply a bad use of your resources towards a strategy with a low chance of success.

Even fixing the current DC so that "Combat Mastery" applies (it was specifically stated it should, but does not and is bugged) will not actually fix the issue. This only takes the DC up to perhaps the upper 60s. While I can appreciate that other similar abilities require an investment in both class levels and enhancement trade offs (ie, bards getting coup de grace requires locking in AP as well as class levels), it cannot be overstated how costly taking 16 levels in one class is to unlock QP. Nor can it be overlooked how difficult it is to raise the DC of QP, as opposed to implosion or finger of death. QP has its own very real set of tradeoffs in terms of levels invested and depends on twists/stances to try and maintain a good dc.

This does not need to be some 90 dc ability, but it should be playable beyond level 20. If you get it at lv16, and its only useful until lv20, thats bad design. I think its time to perhaps re-add Sundering and Combat Mastery both. Or change it to use full monk level. And perhaps remove the +4 for a passed save. Tuning the cooldown to be more similar to other abilities (12s or even 15s) is likewise fine. Getting the ability DC into the mid 70s on a longer cooldown makes it actually playable, and having each use more or less reliably work means the ki cost stays in line as well. The current version is simply a travesty. Either re-adding some other boosts or readjusting the level base makes it function, then tuning the cooldown keeps it in line with other abilities and ki costs. Its not a hard fix, but its a needed one. QP is basically the only defining monk ability past abundant step... except right now its basically nothing. Please fix it, thanks.

[TPICKRELL]

Agreed Ive got half a dozen monks and not a one has Quivering Palm on a bar now.

[Alternative]

the biggest slap to the face was giving bards a perform based insta kill right after taking it away from monks due to melee with an insta kill being OP

inconsistency is the only consistent thing in ddo, and coding handwraps is hard

[Tilomere]

Bards without a charisma focus have instakills in the 90 range, not 70. Charisma based bards are well over 100, but there is no real difference.

[SealedInSong]

I have to agree, this ability needs a fix.

Well-reasoned.

In short, what would get me to use it:
*change DC to include all the effects that previously used to work for it
*change base DC to use FULL monk levels, not half
*change cooldown to ~20s

The comparison would then be:
CdG has complete easy button DC, but requires monster condition (stunned, fascinated, etc) and medium cooldown
QP has competitive DC at any level but requires investment for EE, no monster condition required, long cooldown

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

Now that we have had time to play and test under real game instances I feel that I can pronounce that current Quivering Palm method is close to worthless in all but the easiest content. Current max DCs for the first attempt on QP range from about 56 to 63 under perfect build conditions. Those numbers have a hard time working in top end epic hard content and do not work in epic elite. Now that we have rogues, wizards, sorcs, favored souls, clerics and especially bards that can all have instant kills in the 70+ range (and some well beyond that) is it not time to remove that block that was added to monks and quivering palm.

I resent seeing rogues in the above list...

I fail to see how 63 DC (if that is the absolute max) that has half the cooldown and a stacking +4 dc boost is worse than 70 in case of assassin.

Especially if we remember QP requires a much valuable twist (tactical dc's vs. assassinate dc), item effects and most importantly it's auto granted, where assassinate requires a use of T5 and 32 ap spent... Also half the penalty on multiclass and we all know how important is that atm.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Make it so it drains 2d4 levels on a successful save, and kills on a failed save. Make the cooldown 30 seconds.

[Archangel666]

Agreed OP.

Just revert the damned changes already.

[Robbenklopper]

So Monk is melee, but not said to be a DPS Monster like other melee. It takes longer to tidy up the room this way while punching the **** outta them before they can do with you. Defenitly not first line tanker or rager. I wouldn´t care for that, if not ...

Mobs on EE are tough guys, so what to do? Quivering Palm! Yeeeeees! The reason why i pushed my WIS ahap, ran 3 fighter lifes before 3 monk, permablock one Fateslot with tactician, spend epic destiny feat for tactician, ran (personally for me unloved) dwarf for master-tactics, and got - hmmmm, a more or less mediocre DC60 "2/3 Chance" in Earthstance without buffs .

Combat mastery and stunning fist mods don´t apply for any logic reason. Like bbqzor told before, it´s a waste of 90ki, 3x DPS-less actions + 18 secs of time to raise up DC76 or "3/4 Chance". And the Mobs are still on me! Surrounded, bleeding, ki-drained.

All my hard monotonous pimping for QP is and feels just not enough (to add Jadestrike and Tome of Jade are None bertter). I still do can instakill, but you don´t get what you pay for.
Do i really Need to start maxbuild WIS, levelupmax WIS, ED-max WIS, run waterstance on EE all the time to have a base DC of ... 65? AND go Henshin Void-strike to have some tiny tiny bigger instakillchances to do it right? Probably not.

[TeacherSyn]

A slight dissent:

Quivering Palm is not the same as the Rogue's Assassinate skill, and doesn't gain the same bonuses to increase its DC through enhancements or EDs as Assassins can get. QP also doesn't give up some damage even if the attempt fails, making it more disappointing.

That said, I've used it quite well under certain conditions and against certain targets. The DC type is the same for finishing moves. So, a high WIS character can make it happen. I used it all the time with my high-WIS game-soloing ninja.

But many enemies have pretty high Fortitude saves and QP is not and never will be a panacea. Nor will the DCs likely be changed again; the devs nerfed it for a reason. It's overpowering to be able to spam Assassinate. Keep in mind that QP's cooldown is only 6 seconds; Assassinate is 12 seconds.

So you'll have to work a third option before using the ability.

For me, that option is the use of stat-draining effects against CON. Weapons do this better than handwraps, in my experience, since piercing/slashing weapons often have Wounding effects to lower CON modifiers.

Unlike Assassinate (which must be done in Sneak), I can use Quivering Palm in active combat once a few strikes to damage CON are done.

Currently, on isolated enemies, it's a matter of striking them with Freezing the Lifeblood to paralyze them and damage their CON, then a QP to finish them off. Even if Freezing doesn't take hold, their CON damage will be there unless I completely miss, and they're down.

In short, thinking that we can use QP exactly like Assassinate was doomed from the start. That doesn't make QP useless. Subtle and diverse attacks are among the many talents of the Monk class that too few use. QP is only one of these.

[jalont]

As someone who wanted to see QP originally nerfed, I have to agree that it needs to be unnerfed now in order to regain some balance. Which is a sad statement on the direction the game is going.

[bbqzor]

A slight dissent

Pretty obvious youre talking about heroic level play there. Yea, it can work on occasion in heroics, situation depending. But at 20+ it ceases to be viable. Your solution of stat drain does nothing on epic hard or above where mobs are basically immune to stat damage. And you wont be sitting there going toe to toe with a group of 10 ee mobs waiting for some other debuff to happen first.

Quivering Palm method is close to worthless in all but the easiest content ... hard time working in top end epic hard content and do not work in epic elite ... if something else has to happen to adjust the power level of this ability look at adjusting the timer or ki cost please

Kinda seems like we arent talking about heroic here, nor is anyone asking for a 6s assassinate. I think its clear that the OP is focused on ensuring an ability you get so late in the game as lv 16 has a longer shelf life than hitting 20, and realizes that if the dc goes up to address that, the cd may need to go down.

[Munkenmo]

A slight dissent:

Quivering Palm is not the same as the Rogue's Assassinate skill, and doesn't gain the same bonuses to increase its DC through enhancements or EDs as Assassins can get. QP also doesn't give up some damage even if the attempt fails, making it more disappointing.

That said, I've used it quite well under certain conditions and against certain targets. The DC type is the same for finishing moves. So, a high WIS character can make it happen. I used it all the time with my high-WIS game-soloing ninja.

.

Do you play at cap and in epic elites?

I did, and quivering palm went from an ability that I could use reliably on a near max tactics completionist to a an ability that's not worth having in a hotbar. I can currently get the ability to work reliably from heroics through to almost any epic hard, but in EE it's a waste of ki.

Personally I think quivering palm and assassinate could both do with a boost, not necessarily back to the old point where shattering was applied. If I could get combat mastery, fighter pastlives, racial, class and epic tactics to work with quivering palm that'd be a substantial and needed boost.