Challenging the Ubers without hurting everyone else.

[PsychoBlonde]

Hi,

Fran, I can assure you that EE is not only for the best of the best. I am living proof of that, as are the many other players who in a couple of years or less move from struggling when new to building and running characters in EE content.

It's wildly different depending on what character you're playing, too. Some are just better-suited to EE play. I just FINALLY got my completionist trapper up to the point where she can cope with most eE content reasonably well by herself. My baby 3rd-life bard with NO gear ran an elite streak from 20-28 pretty much effortlessly. And it's not that bard is so much more powerful than my rogue--my rogue is a BEAST! It's that CC dominates eE and bards have that CC.

The challenge in the game doesn't come from "hard" content. Add more hp and damage and higher saves to mobs and within a couple of weeks everybody has adjusted and they're stomping the new content. Heck, even insane stuff like beholders spamming 30 con damage didn't prevent most people from running stuff. When it's just a numbers game, the human players win every time because the monsters are STUPID.

If you want a bigger challenge, you have to challenge the PLAYER. Most of the people I play with, regardless of uberness, cannot do the more complex Cannith challenges worth a ****. Eveningstar challenges are all about killing things, which EVERYONE can do. But to move efficiently, plan a route, recover from setbacks, keep situational awareness, set priorities, react to changing circumstances . . . the vast number of players simply can't hack it. Which is why the difficulty in the game seems to be devolving into "kill all teh things". But killing stuff is really only a challenge when you have no clue how to play your character advantageously. It needs more layers than that to challenge the player. Some of the hardest parts of the game are really pretty low-level. Fighting Barnzidu in A New Invasion. If you can't pay attention to those exploding plates, you can be the Uberest Uberer of Uberdom and still get your butt handed to you. Doing the shield chest optional in Ghosts of Perdition. That ain't no picnic. Heck, 6-starring ANY Kobold Island challenge. Bleh.

The challenges exist in the game but people avoid them because they're a huge pain in the ass and you need SIX people who KNOW what they're doing. Three of them can't just fart around doing random stuff, not communicating, not following instructions, not using their judgment and succeed. Judging from the way most people play, "carry me" is in fact THE preferred playstyle.

[blerkington]

you didnt.
-and were not surprised.

taking jabs @ Frannie's idea for Mythic & the talent pool for EE while u blurt out "running @EN (for "speed" ) ...quite amusing.

Fran is correct.
new players dont run EE successfully.
maybe 2% -with help- are not a burden to others, which is de point.

Mythic would rock.

Hi,

Whether or not new players can run EE content successfully is not really the issue here at all. There are plenty of people who can run EE content now. There are on Khyber, and I'm sure that also true on the other more populous servers too. If you could provide a source for your estimate that would help, because to me it just sounds like a number you've made up.

No higher difficulty setting would be required if the challenge of EE wasn't constantly being eroded. It's just superfluous. It would be a waste of developer time to make quests just for the better/more motivated players, and it would lead to all of the complaining that we had when tiered loot was available in EE content.

My main did his sixteen epic past lives on about a four to five day average and a lot of it was solo. I didn't 'blurt' anything out here, for me that was just the most efficient way to get to where I wanted to be. Once the bonuses had dried up for completing quests the first time on higher difficulties, there was little point to running above EN while levelling.

Thanks.

[blerkington]

It's wildly different depending on what character you're playing, too. Some are just better-suited to EE play. I just FINALLY got my completionist trapper up to the point where she can cope with most eE content reasonably well by herself. My baby 3rd-life bard with NO gear ran an elite streak from 20-28 pretty much effortlessly. And it's not that bard is so much more powerful than my rogue--my rogue is a BEAST! It's that CC dominates eE and bards have that CC.

The challenge in the game doesn't come from "hard" content. Add more hp and damage and higher saves to mobs and within a couple of weeks everybody has adjusted and they're stomping the new content. Heck, even insane stuff like beholders spamming 30 con damage didn't prevent most people from running stuff. When it's just a numbers game, the human players win every time because the monsters are STUPID.

If you want a bigger challenge, you have to challenge the PLAYER. Most of the people I play with, regardless of uberness, cannot do the more complex Cannith challenges worth a ****. Eveningstar challenges are all about killing things, which EVERYONE can do. But to move efficiently, plan a route, recover from setbacks, keep situational awareness, set priorities, react to changing circumstances . . . the vast number of players simply can't hack it. Which is why the difficulty in the game seems to be devolving into "kill all teh things". But killing stuff is really only a challenge when you have no clue how to play your character advantageously. It needs more layers than that to challenge the player. Some of the hardest parts of the game are really pretty low-level. Fighting Barnzidu in A New Invasion. If you can't pay attention to those exploding plates, you can be the Uberest Uberer of Uberdom and still get your butt handed to you. Doing the shield chest optional in Ghosts of Perdition. That ain't no picnic. Heck, 6-starring ANY Kobold Island challenge. Bleh.

The challenges exist in the game but people avoid them because they're a huge pain in the ass and you need SIX people who KNOW what they're doing. Three of them can't just fart around doing random stuff, not communicating, not following instructions, not using their judgment and succeed. Judging from the way most people play, "carry me" is in fact THE preferred playstyle.

Hi,

These are good points, thank you.

[Lonnbeimnech]

My main did his sixteen epic past lives on about a four to five day average and a lot of it was solo. I didn't 'blurt' anything out here, for me that was just the most efficient way to get to where I wanted to be. Once the bonuses had dried up for completing quests the first time on higher difficulties, there was little point to running above EN while levelling.

Thanks.

I agree with your point here, though I found no discernible difference between en and eh, other than eh gave more vcomms.

[blerkington]

I agree with your point here, though I found no discernible difference between en and eh, other than eh gave more vcomms.

Hi,

Thanks. The approach of completing EN for quick and easy xp became even more attractive once heart seeds were introduced.

Take care.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Hi,

Thanks. The approach of completing EN for quick and easy xp became even more attractive once heart seeds were introduced.

Take care.

Ah yes, good point.

[Kawai]

yea pffffft, Blerkie
ill gladly take HeartSeeds AND Xp per min over just the seeds.

Meanwhile, OP is still correct.
can we haz Mythic plz?

[blerkington]

yea pffffft, Blerkie
ill gladly take HeartSeeds AND Xp per min over just the seeds.

Meanwhile, OP is still correct.
can we haz Mythic plz?

Hi,

I have a couple of suggestions for you.

1. Tell us what you think is good about the mythic proposal. There are problems with it that you haven't addressed. Saying you like it is all well and good, but what about the problems there are with it?

2. Post some screenshots showing your solo EE completion times. You talk a big game, but I think it's very unlikely you are soloing EE content in the same or less time it takes me to complete those same quests on EN. There are people who can, but I don't think you are one of them.

Thanks.

[depositbox]

Because they don't want to HAVE to "Carry" groups to Completions - That's too much of a Challenge!

Not it isn't too much of a challenge. At all.

[Kawai]

Hi,

I have a couple of suggestions for you.

1. Tell us what you think is good about the mythic proposal. There are problems with it that you haven't addressed. Saying you like it is all well and good, but what about the problems there are with it?

2. Post some screenshots showing your solo EE completion times. You talk a big game, but I think it's very unlikely you are soloing EE content in the same or less time it takes me to complete those same quests on EN. There are people who can, but I don't think you are one of them.

Thanks.

well, there's ur first prob.
u think for others too much, instead of actually quoting them

i dont & never will level a toon @ EE. where u got that, only your mind can reveal.
its EH.

EE is fun & challenging and extremely rewarding loot-wise, pre-update anyway, and very fulfilling personally. i luv EE. but i do luv our nightly grouping & flagging & saga runs more.
*shrug, nothing really to prove to anyone, or someone i care little about such as urself who only serves our forum with negativity.

anyone on our channy/group can solo EE, and this started with the need for Comms for PDK favor back before additions.
Meh Elfie ran around showing off her GreenScale armor while u were learning EN. Facts is facts.

Scaling, as Fran correctly points out, adds to the difficulty of a group, & who needs carried.
f u cant handle ur own scaling its tough on grouping -especially in a pug.
which is where the majority are sitting.

as to why i want Frans Mythic idea to succeed?
mainly, i c it as the OLD Epic.
which was awesome back then.

there were toons who either DID epic... or did NOT do epic.
meh Main could run Epic.
meh alts could NOT run epic.
it was that simple.

past lives, and gear should matter again.
eating Ottos and paying your way to "Uber" is a joke when u cant even lead a pug by yourself.
or if, cough cough, u choose to run EN and flame someone for thinking outside de box.

so, Go Frannie Go.

[blerkington]

well, there's ur first prob.
u think for others too much, instead of actually quoting them

i dont & never will level a toon @ EE. where u got that, only your mind can reveal.
its EH.

EE is fun & challenging and extremely rewarding loot-wise, pre-update anyway, and very fulfilling personally. i luv EE. but i do luv our nightly grouping & flagging & saga runs more.
*shrug, nothing really to prove to anyone, or someone i care little about such as urself who only serves our forum with negativity.

anyone on our channy/group can solo EE, and this started with the need for Comms for PDK favor back before additions.
Meh Elfie ran around showing off her GreenScale armor while u were learning EN. Facts is facts.

Scaling, as Fran correctly points out, adds to the difficulty of a group, & who needs carried.
f u cant handle ur own scaling its tough on grouping -especially in a pug.
which is where the majority are sitting.

as to why i want Frans Mythic idea to succeed?
mainly, i c it as the OLD Epic.
which was awesome back then.

there were toons who either DID epic... or did NOT do epic.
meh Main could run Epic.
meh alts could NOT run epic.
it was that simple.

past lives, and gear should matter again.
eating Ottos and paying your way to "Uber" is a joke when u cant even lead a pug by yourself.
or if, cough cough, u choose to run EN and flame someone for thinking outside de box.

so, Go Frannie Go.

Hi,

The issue we were discussing was xp/minute for epic reincarnating.

I said that I'd done a bunch of epic reincarnations recently, and since I'd exhausted the streak and first time bonuses and was mainly soloing in off destines, it was more efficient for me to run on EN. This is a pretty common practice among people who want to get their epic past lives done easily and efficiently.

It worked well for the epic past lives I did, although I know other people who ER much more quickly and efficiently than I do. Some of them do it on higher difficulties too.

Your claim was:

ill gladly take HeartSeeds AND Xp per min over just the seeds.

So what were you trying to say here, if not that you run quests on higher difficulty for better xp per minute as well as the same number of seeds? It seems to me you are backing down now that you have been asked to provide proof of what you've said.

Now you've made a bunch of claims about how well I play the game, level my characters, etc. Not very classy, and not true either. You have no way of knowing these things, you're simply being unpleasant.

I haven't flamed anyone in this post, not you or Fran, I've just disagreed with some of the statements the two of you have made. I've also tried to offer Fran some suggestions about what he can do to make EE less of a problem for him. Although Fran's posts often irritate me considerably, I'm trying to be more constructive in how I respond to them.

I'm still waiting to hear why you think mythic difficulty is a good idea, that is something you've not been able to explain yet.

Thanks.

[Kawai]

Hi,

EN...is a pretty common practice among people who want to get their epic past lives done easily and efficiently.

only common im guessing amongst u & ur toons.
no one i know runs EN during an ETR, & ditto with anything under Elite on Heroic.
ever. period. makes no sense. though im sure it does to some, but not de majority.

...So what were you trying to say here, if not that you run quests on higher difficulty for better xp per minute as well as the same number of seeds? It seems to me you are backing down now that you have been asked to provide proof of what you've said.

not at all, that's where you go flying off the radar on comprehension i guess.
never once did i say EE, which u did try to cram into my words
didn't happen.

common knowledge is EH for leveling @ xp per min.
Elite for Heroic.

& no one is backing down from anything.
if u prefer EN... that's on you.
if u finish an same quest repeatedly @EN in 10 min, and i finish in 11, but on EH, with Bonus, always with fresh quests etc, in meh mind, yea, i win. this is what im used to, and this is how we roll.
there honestly isn't much difference between EN and EH as to difficulty, especially in a group thats tearing through mobs faster than they can appear. Most groups who run together do same on EE, though obviously not as common.

so why not take home the rest of that xp as well?
no idea why EN would ever seem appealing over EH.

Now you've made a bunch of claims about how well I play the game, level my characters, etc. Not very classy, and not true either. You have no way of knowing these things, you're simply being unpleasant.

uhm... wha?
paste one place where ive called u out or insinuated anything insulting about how well you play your game and your toons?
what, by pointing out EH over EN?
if u find that insulting... well.. that's an inferiority complex i guess? i dunno. im not ur nurse.
(see, now THAT can b taken as insulting, if u wish)

ive actually respected your overall opinion many times, but the ACTUAL insults that inspired this whole discussion were your obvious slams on Fran. -No need to paste them as i already have. so :P

I'm still waiting to hear why you think mythic difficulty is a good idea, that is something you've not been able to explain yet.
Thanks.

:| scroll up a few times & read b4 u post. or do i need @paste AGAIN 4u?
looks like i explained it pretty well.

sidenote: unpleasant?
childish phrase applies here i guess: you started it

[Talon_Moonshadow]

The current game needs to be left alone.

But when they add new content, plan it for lvl cap, and make EE more difficult to account for all that extra power people are getting over time.


Also, update all raids for an epic difficulty level, and consider periodically updating raids to keep up with end game. (but careful with this one.)

[Talon_Moonshadow]

If you need an incentive to run it; then it is not too easy.

If you think weaker players are dragging you down; then it is not too easy.

if you are thinking about dungeon scaling making it harder for you; then it is not too easy.

[Zoogar]

I like your idea about a Mythic level for the people that want a harder challenge, something more then EE.
Also I agree that EE is not scaled right in some cases. In small groups EE are much easier then in large groups, but evasion is almost a must have for the EE quests.
I some times solo and when I do it is always on EH as I find the challenge right and I generally don't have any problems at all. Storm Horns and Orchard are the exceptions as the mobs are overwhelming for me for solo play.

Anyway Great Idea!

[Zoogar]

The current game needs to be left alone.
But when they add new content, plan it for lvl cap, and make EE more difficult to account for all that extra power people are getting over time.
Also, update all raids for an epic difficulty level, and consider periodically updating raids to keep up with end game. (but careful with this one.)

If you need an incentive to run it; then it is not too easy.
If you think weaker players are dragging you down; then it is not too easy.
if you are thinking about dungeon scaling making it harder for you; then it is not too easy.

I hear both sides of the difficulty argument all the time, seem the correct path would be have another level to the quests. Every since they added the ED and changed the enchantments tables the game has become very unbalanced.
Personal I like pure characters not multiclass, which is my choice and I know since I am not adding rogue or monk to my character I will not be able to run the EE without and solid group to help carry and support me though some of the raids.

For example I the raid the "Mark of Death" I have talked to a few of the people I know who run it on EE, basically they have special built characters and run with particular people who have also done the same in order to completed it.

Personal I think it is very sad that people feel the need to make speciality character to run a quest when they could and should enjoy playing what ever they want.
I have often wondered if that is why DDO is on the way down as you need to have access to almost everything in the game to make the right character that other want you to be, instead of just hanging out on line with some new friends and have fun.

[blerkington]

only common im guessing amongst u & ur toons.
no one i know runs EN during an ETR, & ditto with anything under Elite on Heroic.
ever. period. makes no sense. though im sure it does to some, but not de majority.

You may not know anyone who does it, but I see other people doing it on Khyber all the time.

Some of the quests on my daily circuit were upper level (Stormhorns) which give good xp if you can do them quickly, but have a noticeable difference in difficulty when soloing between EN and EH, especially when you went into them at min level.

It may not be how you do things, but others do, and it works just fine.

not at all, that's where you go flying off the radar on comprehension i guess.
never once did i say EE, which u did try to cram into my words
didn't happen.

common knowledge is EH for leveling @ xp per min.
Elite for Heroic.

Again, not common knowledge, and very much a function of which quest, what level you are, what your build is, whether you are soloing or grouping, and whether you are in a destiny which is strong or weak for your build.

& no one is backing down from anything.
if u prefer EN... that's on you.
if u finish an same quest repeatedly @EN in 10 min, and i finish in 11, but on EH, with Bonus, always with fresh quests etc, in meh mind, yea, i win. this is what im used to, and this is how we roll.
there honestly isn't much difference between EN and EH as to difficulty, especially in a group thats tearing through mobs faster than they can appear. Most groups who run together do same on EE, though obviously not as common.

so why not take home the rest of that xp as well?
no idea why EN would ever seem appealing over EH.

The xp differences between EN and EH is often not that great, whereas completion times can be quite different solo depending on the factors I mentioned above. It's usually not a matter of just one minute.

Incidentally, even for very good players, HH can be better xp per min than HE. Take a look at some of the posts by MrCow and other very efficient levellers if you need some proof of this. The same is true for epic content, depending on a number of factors.

I had finished all of my heroic lives by the time I started ERing. Because of the way first time and streak bonuses work, I didn't get any of them after finishing my first ER. So speed and ease of completion are the main considerations.

uhm... wha?
paste one place where ive called u out or insinuated anything insulting about how well you play your game and your toons?
what, by pointing out EH over EN?
if u find that insulting... well.. that's an inferiority complex i guess? i dunno. im not ur nurse.
(see, now THAT can b taken as insulting, if u wish)

ive actually respected your overall opinion many times, but the ACTUAL insults that inspired this whole discussion were your obvious slams on Fran. -No need to paste them as i already have. so :P

Quotes provided below.

such as urself who only serves our forum with negativity.

Meh Elfie ran around showing off her GreenScale armor while u were learning EN. Facts is facts.

There it is. At least stand up for what you've said.

:| scroll up a few times & read b4 u post. or do i need @paste AGAIN 4u?
looks like i explained it pretty well.

sidenote: unpleasant?
childish phrase applies here i guess: you started it

I see you say that you think old epic were awesome. That's not an argument, it's an opinion, which you haven't really supported in any way.

You say that some characters could run epics while others could not. I don't think this is a good arrangement. I think it's far better to have epic content which is available to most of the community, allowing people to build up to running it.

If you think I've missed an argument of yours in there somewhere, by all means please do post it. I find your writing style very hard to read.

Thanks.

[Zoogar]

They biggest fix needed for EE is to give it incentives to be played. I.e. like it was before (EN, EH, EE items, not just E items).

After they've made that easy fix, then can work on increasing the difficulty.

I totally disagree with this as an option for a fix.
Having items for EN, EH, and EE is a complete waste. I have EE and nothing else, since EE items have a higher level cap I do with other items in the game until I can use them.
The level cap with the crystal cove & mabar gear is well done and works well. Having the gear so close in level it become useless clutter.
A better option would be having a base item that can be upgraded WITHOUT the dumb raid grinding would be better then have EN, EH, & EE items.

The incentives to play EE is it is supposed to difficult and challenging at level.
With that being said some EE at level are extremely difficult even when you are two or more level above the quest and with a good group of players with multiple lives and geared right.
The problem with the game is it is not balanced between the class and some quests at the same level and that is where the fix needs to be, not scaled gear.

[Kawai]

It may not be how you do things, but others do, and it works just fine.

and ditto, via back at ya.
u c what u c
i c what i c

hows abooot take a poll?

The xp differences between EN and EH is often not that great, whereas completion times can be quite different solo depending on the factors I mentioned above. It's usually not a matter of just one minute.

yea, it really is.
some, if not most, and i do stress the most, prefer all XP they can muster the fastest, which includes BB, traps, breakables, etc.
Thus, EH & HE ( pls dun even get meh started on HE over HH, the difference in time is minuscule. one person might like that? a few even.... but nowhere near the majority.
theres nowhere near the oldstyle quest farming E,H,NNNNNN.
now its simply E and move on, unless its 1 of de few 1 minute big xp maps.

ill never pass up some xp unless it just makes sense. En makes no sense while levelling 2meh.

mobs appear, and they evaporate in a flurry of spells & hails of arrows & little fists & swords beating them to a fine paste.
its always like this, only pausing long enough @traps for XP.

There it is. At least stand up for what you've said.

standing loud & proud.
b sure to quote yourself also where u chuckled that i dun even run EE... which brought your well deserved pwnage in said quote. reap what u sew bebe

I see you say that you think old epic were awesome. That's not an argument, it's an opinion, which you haven't really supported in any way.
You say that some characters could run epics while others could not. I don't think this is a good arrangement. I think it's far better to have epic content which is available to most of the community, allowing people to build up to running it.

not meh opinion, but i do agree with it.
i do, however, know for a fact it was stated ages ago by the Devs themselves that Epic was never intended to be for everyone.
so there it is.
f a c t
-not opinion.

my opinion: Old Epic was awesome. and EH beats EN <------------ my opinion cant miss it. its all yellow & stuff. and it even sez My Opinion there like totally x3+. woot

[Zoogar]

The xp differences between EN and EH is often not that great, whereas completion times can be quite different solo depending on the factors I mentioned above. It's usually not a matter of just one minute.
Incidentally, even for very good players, HH can be better xp per min than HE. Take a look at some of the posts by MrCow and other very efficient levellers if you need some proof of this. The same is true for epic content, depending on a number of factors.
I had finished all of my heroic lives by the time I started ERing. Because of the way first time and streak bonuses work, I didn't get any of them after finishing my first ER. So speed and ease of completion are the main considerations.

All I can say is wow!
I personal don't know any players who are on second life running anything on heroic other then elite, as the any increase in XP is worth the couple on minutes in the quest.

I think you are still missing the point. There is an imbalance in the game from character classes and some quests marked as the same level.
For example all level 20 quests ran on EE (Making them level 22) should feel the same and be similar to complete... Sad fact... their are not.

They have made gear the incentive for running the quest not the experience or challenge.
Why do you run the quests, only one reason, so you can flash your shiny new item that will soon be obsolete.

Personally the decline in new players and why people are leaving the game is all these changes which have caused imbalances.
Some of the earliest problems started is when they redid the enchantments and it seems with each character change and divergence from where the game stated they will continue to cause more problems.

The overall this game is not getting any better.
It is easier to balance the quests and make it more enjoyable for the masses, then to keep this ongoing power struggle between the classes.

The truth is they can not undo the damage they started, only try to manage it.