Challenging the Ubers without hurting everyone else.

[FranOhmsford]

This is a reply I wrote in another thread that I feel deserves its own.

Basically EE no matter whether you're in a full 6 man party {no hirelings} OR Soloing {with or without a hireling} requires that you be capable of Soloing said content OR that there's at least one Uber in group who can carry the "lesser" players through.
Otherwise you're nothing more than an extra body {and probably a Soulstone either way!}.

The Dungeon Scaling system is off in EEs!

There really aren't that many {if any} people who are happy to have to be "Carried" to completions.
And
Those players capable of "Carrying" a Full group through EEs are few and far between and tend not to group with regular players all that much anyway!
Because they don't want to HAVE to "Carry" groups to Completions - That's too much of a Challenge!


The thing I really don't get is that "Soloing" in DDO was made available NOT to provide a Challenge to Ubers BUT to allow more players access to the game!
This is why we have Dungeon Scaling the way it is!

Reduce Scaling in EEs only to Max out at 2 man {or whatever it currently is} - Yes this would make EEs much easier for Groups but would make it no easier for Soloers!
And still quite a bit more difficult than full 6 man scaled EH!


On the other hand - The Ubers need their End-Game - So...We have "Mythic" items now - Create a new "Mythic" difficulty for strictly End-Game quests and go crazy Devs!
A couple of things though:
1) The regulars upon reaching End-Game need something to do too - Don't lock them out of "Mythic" completely - Make it more like the old "Epic" where with 6 man parties basically a requirement adding a so-called "Lesser" Player as the last man wasn't a massive penalty - So long as you had a core of good players in group.
2) Don't forget the regular Quests and Raids. Don't make these undesirable!
3) Be careful about Loot Creep - Bring in a new Shard/Seal/Scroll type mechanic where earning the loot from "Mythic" content will literally take months to years!
4) Bring back quest timers for "Mythics" with NO BYPASSES!

[Kawai]

rates this thread @2 woots/2.
+1

[blerkington]

Hi,

I cannot believe that at this point in the game's development, there are still people asking for EE content to be made even easier.

Apart from the three (perhaps four or five) endgame raids, EE generally poses very little challenge to the veteran player, nor even to newer players who are quick to learn.

Even after the big increase in survivability we all got with u23 (PRR improvements and MRR), the upcoming changes to healing amp, and the insane death spiral we are in by providing massive, unnecessary buffs to the classes, one after the other, you still think EE needs to be made even easier?

Why exactly would you want to do that? Why not just become better at the game instead? Do you ask your tennis partner to allow the ball to bounce twice on your side of the net, or your chess partner to allow take-backs of moves you regret making?

The premises upon which your request is based are all wrong. In my experience, there are plenty of people who are happy to be assisted to EE completions by better players. That is a phase everyone goes through as they learn the game and their characters become stronger, and there is no shame in it.

Similarly, the ability to solo EE quests is obviously not a requirement to complete EE content as part of a group; being able to complete EE content in a group is a step towards being able to complete it by yourself.

This solution of yours makes no sense at all. Making EE easier is not a good idea. Spending development time on making a new, harder difficulty, because EE has been made easy is sheer folly. If special loot is available in this new difficulty, it will just mean that everyone will aspire to that difficulty instead, and get upset if they can't complete it.

It will just be the new EE, with the eternal arguments about whether it's too hard or too easy. All that you would be doing is moving the goalposts, not changing the game in a worthwhile way.

There may even come a point in your own development as a gamer that you regret speaking up for the removal of challenge, because it just brings the day closer when there no more worlds left for you to conquer. Think of the children, Fran, and also think of Future Fran!

Thanks.

[FranOhmsford]

Do you ask your tennis partner to allow the ball to bounce twice on your side of the net,

No...But I don't play Tennis against Pete Sampras!

or your chess partner to allow take-backs of moves you regret making?

I also don't play chess against Gary Kasparov

It will just be the new EE, with the eternal arguments about whether it's too hard or too easy. All that you would be doing is moving the goalposts, not changing the game in a worthwhile way.

You're not getting it - EE is levelling content these days NOT End-Game content!

"Mythic" would be more akin to pre MotU Epic and confined to only those who'd both hit cap AND decided to stay there!

Oh and no matter how difficult {short of impossible} the Devs make any content there will come a time when enough players have mastered it for the effect to snowball!
THAT is what has happened to Elite!
BUT it has not yet happened to EE - The majority of players still aren't running EEs regularly and many are running ENs rather than EHs even!

One day it will happen to EE and people like you will state that you told us it was too easy - I'm going to say this one time: Ease and Difficulty are functions of multiple effects...Changing just one of those things is going to do nothing other than move those goalposts slightly!

IF the Devs go with a "Mythic" difficulty similar to the old "Epic" and stick it at Cap 30 {CR 35} then one day {perhaps that very same day} someone will state on these forums that it's too easy!
That someone could well be right {CR 35 may not have the same effect now as CR 25 once did} - The Devs may need to tweek it upwards a bit.
BUT
There HAS to come a point where the Devs say "Enough is Enough" and we the Players have to accept that there is a finite cap upon possible difficulty in a game that has to appeal to and is played by a wide spectrum of people of all different backgrounds!

This isn't Tennis or Chess either - And even in those games Parents and Teachers don't Teach by constantly hammering their Children and Students into the ground!

I used to play Pool {8-Ball on an English Table!} and I learned nothing from constantly beating people much worse than me - I also learned nothing from sitting and watching someone clear the table over and over again!
I was 19 or 20 before I finally beat my Dad - He's barely played against me since {maybe a handful of times!}.
I wouldn't even consider playing my cousin {who was once ranked at #7 in the World at Snooker!} - I may have won the odd game but it wouldn't have been worth it!
In a one on one {PvP} game you play mostly against someone roughly equal in ability to yourself if you want to get better! AND if that means you agree to soften the rules a bit then you do so...as long as you're not talking tournament play!

[blerkington]

Hi,

Fran, the point is you don't have to be Gary Kasparov or Pete Sampras to play EE content. Not even close, that is such an inappropriate analogy.

While not everyone is doing it, it's very attainable if you put the effort into building and gearing a good character, and learning how to play it. Not everyone wants to do that, but I think it's safe to say that nearly anyone could, if motivated enough, especially with the game as it is now.

That is very much my own experience, being a competent rather than excellent player, who is now in the situation where the majority of EE content is not particularly challenging. This isn't false modesty; there are many people I run with on my server who are much better than me, and some of them may always be. For them this problem is much, much worse.

It is utterly pointless to make our current top difficulty easier then adding a new difficulty above it. Making the existing difficulties we have now more fully and evenly cover the full spectrum of ability would be far more useful, to the novices and the veterans alike. Right now, EN and EH are mostly even more pointless than ever, because they were also made significantly easier by the recent changes to the game.

For what it's worth, you are also mistaken about not being able to learn from competing against less competent players in sport, or against easy content in non-competitive past-times. Every time you practise is an opportunity to think about and improve your technique. If you ignore that, you are doomed to remain bad at what you do.

Thanks.

[FranOhmsford]

Fran, the point is you don't have to be Gary Kasparov or Pete Sampras to play EE content. Not even close, that is such an inappropriate analogy.

You're forgetting that in DDO terms the people playing EEs are the best of the best - Therefore that is the Perfect analogy!
I don't know too many Chess Players but if you like I'll swap in Tim Henman for Pete Sampras!

While not everyone is doing it, it's very attainable if you put the effort into building and gearing a good character, and learning how to play it. Not everyone wants to do that, but I think it's safe to say that nearly anyone could, if motivated enough, especially with the game as it is now.

That is very much my own experience, being a competent rather than excellent player, who is now in the situation where the majority of EE content is not particularly challenging. This isn't false modesty; there are many people I run with on my server who are much better than me, and some of them may always be. For them this problem is much, much worse.

Having taken 1 hour and 40 minutes to complete EE Cabal for One in a Duo with a friend {25 Cleric and 26 Paladin - No Deaths at least} I have to say that you're doing EE {and the game as a whole} a massive disservice by your assumption that it's in the slightest bit attainable for anyone other than the Elite!

EE is frankly ridiculous and I know full well that my contribution to a full group in basically any EE would be nil on said Cleric!
Either the group needs her healing in which case we have no chance of completing anyway! {One Cleric isn't going to keep a squishy group up in EEs!}
Or the group is fully self sufficient and in EEs her DPS and CC are worthless!

It is utterly pointless to make our current top difficulty easier then adding a new difficulty above it. Making the existing difficulties we have now more fully and evenly cover the full spectrum of ability would be far more useful, to the novices and the veterans alike. Right now, EN and EH are mostly even more pointless than ever, because they were also made significantly easier by the recent changes to the game.

Funny that so many people are running EN and EH then {more ENs than EHs when I look at the LFM!}.

And I'm not talking about simply another difficulty above EE - That would be a terrible mistake!
I'm talking about giving us back an actual End-Game with End-Game quests specifically tiered towards End-Game Players and with only ONE difficulty level!
No chance of doing those quests on a "lesser" difficulty = More Grouping just like when Epic actually meant Epic!

EE could then be safely reduced to a more reasonable difficulty rating to reflect the fact that it's used for levelling TO the End-Game NOT as an End-Game in itself!

For what it's worth, you are also mistaken about not being able to learn from competing against less competent players in sport, or against easy content in non-competitive past-times. Every time you practise is an opportunity to think about and improve your technique. If you ignore that, you are doomed to remain bad at what you do.

Again - Personal experience says otherwise. And here I'm specifically talking about one on one sports NOT team sports where there's far more variables!

Tennis Players don't train against other Tennis Players - They Train solo or with a Coach! {When playing for fun they do so against players of similar ability if at all possible!}
Snooker Players likewise!

Go to any Pool Hall and you'll see people practising alone!

This is because you learn nothing from easy victories against significantly weaker players and likewise nothing from constant defeats against significantly superior players!

It's impossible to improve your technique when you get 1 go at the pool or snooker table other than breaking every 3 frames!
It's likewise impossible to improve your technique at Tennis when Goran Ivanisevic is firing 4 Aces each time he serves! {luckily he was prone to mistakes too otherwise he'd have been unbeatable but the point stands}.

[Lonnbeimnech]

You're forgetting that in DDO terms the people playing EEs are the best of the best - Therefore that is the Perfect analogy!
I don't know too many Chess Players but if you like I'll swap in Tim Henman for Pete Sampras!



Having taken 1 hour and 40 minutes to complete EE Cabal for One in a Duo with a friend {25 Cleric and 26 Paladin - No Deaths at least} I have to say that you're doing EE {and the game as a whole} a massive disservice by your assumption that it's in the slightest bit attainable for anyone other than the Elite!

EE is frankly ridiculous and I know full well that my contribution to a full group in basically any EE would be nil on said Cleric!
Either the group needs her healing in which case we have no chance of completing anyway! {One Cleric isn't going to keep a squishy group up in EEs!}
Or the group is fully self sufficient and in EEs her DPS and CC are worthless!



Funny that so many people are running EN and EH then {more ENs than EHs when I look at the LFM!}.

And I'm not talking about simply another difficulty above EE - That would be a terrible mistake!
I'm talking about giving us back an actual End-Game with End-Game quests specifically tiered towards End-Game Players and with only ONE difficulty level!
No chance of doing those quests on a "lesser" difficulty = More Grouping just like when Epic actually meant Epic!

EE could then be safely reduced to a more reasonable difficulty rating to reflect the fact that it's used for levelling TO the End-Game NOT as an End-Game in itself!



Again - Personal experience says otherwise. And here I'm specifically talking about one on one sports NOT team sports where there's far more variables!

Tennis Players don't train against other Tennis Players - They Train solo or with a Coach! {When playing for fun they do so against players of similar ability if at all possible!}
Snooker Players likewise!

Go to any Pool Hall and you'll see people practising alone!

This is because you learn nothing from easy victories against significantly weaker players and likewise nothing from constant defeats against significantly superior players!

It's impossible to improve your technique when you get 1 go at the pool or snooker table other than breaking every 3 frames!
It's likewise impossible to improve your technique at Tennis when Goran Ivanisevic is firing 4 Aces each time he serves! {luckily he was prone to mistakes too otherwise he'd have been unbeatable but the point stands}.

And it's impossible to run EE when you think unyielding sentinel is the best destiny for a melee.

[BDog77]

And it's impossible to run EE when you think unyielding sentinel is the best destiny for a melee.

Eh, it's ok for a change now and again.

[blerkington]

You're forgetting that in DDO terms the people playing EEs are the best of the best - Therefore that is the Perfect analogy!

I don't know too many Chess Players but if you like I'll swap in Tim Henman for Pete Sampras!

Hi,

Fran, I can assure you that EE is not only for the best of the best. I am living proof of that, as are the many other players who in a couple of years or less move from struggling when new to building and running characters in EE content.

The amount of effort and skill required to succeed at EE content in DDO is completely insignificant compared even to becoming reasonably good at a sport or other past-time.

It takes an exceptional person thousands of hours of training to reach the level of a Sampras or a Kasparov. There's no comparison here whatsoever; you are ludicrously overestimating how difficult EE content in DDO is.

Having taken 1 hour and 40 minutes to complete EE Cabal for One in a Duo with a friend {25 Cleric and 26 Paladin - No Deaths at least} I have to say that you're doing EE {and the game as a whole} a massive disservice by your assumption that it's in the slightest bit attainable for anyone other than the Elite!

EE is frankly ridiculous and I know full well that my contribution to a full group in basically any EE would be nil on said Cleric!
Either the group needs her healing in which case we have no chance of completing anyway! {One Cleric isn't going to keep a squishy group up in EEs!}
Or the group is fully self sufficient and in EEs her DPS and CC are worthless!

I really don't think the problem here is that EE is too hard for most people. Your situation might improve if you were to talk to other people who play divines about their builds, gear and playtstyle. People will help you, and time spent complaining on the forums about how the game is too hard is time that could be better spent becoming good at the game instead.

Funny that so many people are running EN and EH then {more ENs than EHs when I look at the LFM!}.

And I'm not talking about simply another difficulty above EE - That would be a terrible mistake!
I'm talking about giving us back an actual End-Game with End-Game quests specifically tiered towards End-Game Players and with only ONE difficulty level!
No chance of doing those quests on a "lesser" difficulty = More Grouping just like when Epic actually meant Epic!

EE could then be safely reduced to a more reasonable difficulty rating to reflect the fact that it's used for levelling TO the End-Game NOT as an End-Game in itself!

I'm not sure why you claim EE is only used for levelling. You seem a bit stuck between the contradictory claims that it's only for the best of the best and that people are routinely using it to get to cap. Which one is it?

Making a whole new set of quests with only one difficulty is not sensible or an efficient use of developer time. Far better that any new quests be available to everyone, on lower difficulties for people who don't want a challenge, and also to people who do want one.

People run EN and EH for a whole variety of reasons, even when they are capable of EE content. I did the majority of my ERing on EN for the sake of speed; it makes perfect sense especially when running in off destinies. What you may be failing to take into account is the amount of EE completions that are organised in private channels and withiin the stronger guilds.

Again - Personal experience says otherwise. And here I'm specifically talking about one on one sports NOT team sports where there's far more variables!

Tennis Players don't train against other Tennis Players - They Train solo or with a Coach! {When playing for fun they do so against players of similar ability if at all possible!}
Snooker Players likewise!

Go to any Pool Hall and you'll see people practising alone!

This is because you learn nothing from easy victories against significantly weaker players and likewise nothing from constant defeats against significantly superior players!

It's impossible to improve your technique when you get 1 go at the pool or snooker table other than breaking every 3 frames!
It's likewise impossible to improve your technique at Tennis when Goran Ivanisevic is firing 4 Aces each time he serves! {luckily he was prone to mistakes too otherwise he'd have been unbeatable but the point stands}.

Don't assume that because you are unable to learn in these situations other people can't either. It's quite possible to work on your own technique when playing weaker opponents, and also to learn by observing stronger players beat you. Frankly, I am really surprised that I have to explain this.

Thanks.

[legendkilleroll]

If EE cabal is taking hour and half, you been playing for 4+ years and seem to post alot so assume you must play a fair bit, id say the problem lies with you

[FranOhmsford]

The Elitism on these forums is frankly astonishing.

Keep pretending that just because you've mastered something anyone can - There's thousands of people who've played DDO who've never even reached Epic levels so making statements that anyone can complete EEs regularly is nothing more than fantasy {and not in the D&D sense of the word!}.

Epic difficulty worked well for years before MotU came out {It had its problems yes but its big success was providing a reason to keep playing once cap was reached and XP and Favour were no longer available!}.

A new "Mythic" difficulty set up as the TRUE Cap {remembering that the Devs stated categorically that Lvl 30 was as far as they had any plans to go!} and with the experience and knowledge gained from the past could do an even better job!


I do wish people would stop taking things out of context:

When I state that EE is Levelling content these days I'm NOT stating that everyone can run EEs currently in the slightest!
I'm simply stating that we've got to stop thinking of EE as the End-Game {this temporary situation post MotU without a REAL End-Game has gone on too long already and it seems certain people don't even want a TRUE End-Game any longer - Rather puts paid to their pleas for more challenge me thinks!}.


When cap hits 30 and players are still running E-VoN3 EN {for speed} maybe some of you will understand that EE is simply too difficult for what it now is!
EE-VoN3, Spies, Wiz King, Impossible Demands, HoRB etc. etc. etc. are not now and never will be End-Game content again - Stop pretending that they should be!

By all means go crazy on a REAL End-Game Devs - One that will challenge the best of the best {at least until they've mastered it!}.




Anyway - I've put this thread here as a suggestion for the Devs - You want to keep telling everyone I'm gimp, bad, don't know how to play then fine...go ahead.
Just don't be surprised as the player base keeps dwindling! {I'm going nowhere so don't get your hopes up!}.

[Monkey-Boy]

There really aren't that many {if any} people who are happy to have to be "Carried" to completions.

You could have fooled me with the dregs I've been picking up in pugland.

[Monkey-Boy]

Keep pretending that just because you've mastered something anyone can - .

It's not that hard of a game.

That said leave EE where it is but give us a setting above Elite. I like "Mythic" as the name, the OP used that and it makes sense. Leave the XP the same as elite, give better loot drop-rates and that'll be incentive enough.

[Avenir]

If EE cabal is taking hour and half, you been playing for 4+ years and seem to post alot so assume you must play a fair bit, id say the problem lies with you

Geez.

[Kawai]

...Frankly, I am really surprised that I have to explain this

you didnt.
-and were not surprised.

taking jabs @ Frannie's idea for Mythic & the talent pool for EE while u blurt out "running @EN (for "speed" ) ...quite amusing.

Fran is correct.
new players dont run EE successfully.
maybe 2% -with help- are not a burden to others, which is de point.

Mythic would rock.

[Monkey-Boy]

new players dont run EE successfully.

Nor should they, there are three lower difficulties for people who aren't ready yet for EE.

Almost nobody went right into EE when MoTU first went live, people spent a ton of time on EN/EH to get destinies filled and level up. Now with ETRing and full-destinies (and tons of metagaming knowledge) EE is more common.

And yes, we need a setting above elite or we need massive nerfs on the players. The recent bard and paladin buffs have pushed player power-level a little too high. I expect this trend to continue while the devs rebalance the rest of the classes.

[A-O]

They biggest fix needed for EE is to give it incentives to be played. I.e. like it was before (EN, EH, EE items, not just E items).

After they've made that easy fix, then can work on increasing the difficulty.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Nor should they, there are three lower difficulties for people who aren't ready yet for EE.

Almost nobody went right into EE when MoTU first went live, people spent a ton of time on EN/EH to get destinies filled and level up. Now with ETRing and full-destinies (and tons of metagaming knowledge) EE is more common.

And yes, we need a setting above elite or we need massive nerfs on the players. The recent bard and paladin buffs have pushed player power-level a little too high. I expect this trend to continue while the devs rebalance the rest of the classes.

Nerfs for players or buffs for mobs.

If they come out with a higher difficulty setting, people will ask for better loot as an incentive to run it, because even if they complain about the game being too easy and thus boring, they will not be motivated to actually run content just for the fun/challenge.

So out comes the newer better loot. The few that can already steam-roll EE, whether it's with legitimate character building/game knowledge or just an infinite supply of bottled tornadoes, will get the newer better loot so they can steam-roll the content even faster. And this will just aggravate all the people that run in unyielding sentential and think it's the best destiny for a melee, because now there will be 2 difficulty settings they cannot complete, and even better loot they cannot acquire.

[Chai]

With armor up and melee power, EE got a lot easier for those it was not easier for already. We have even run EE content in PD, before and after the update. None of our characters are max gear by far. The players are really good at working together however....which makes EE a lot easier.

Most of the barrier inhibiting EE play, is 6 players soloing the same instance, where teamwork makes it a lot easier.

[blerkington]

Hi,

Fran, if you go back and look at what I wrote about who I think can complete EE, perhaps you will see the significant difference between your formulation and mine. What I said was that it required effort; a decently well built and geared character which you must learn how to play.

At no point have I said that anyone can complete EE content, nor did I say people would do it right after Korthos. However, the game is designed to be beatable, and it certainly is, even on higher difficulty settings. The requirements are just a little different and higher on EE than on other settings.

It is simply ridiculous to say you need to be a Sampras or a Kasparov to do it; I could put together a list of fifty people on Khyber who complete EE content easily and regularly, and I'm sure there are more I don't know. Some of these people are very good players, others are just intelligent, motivated people who took the time to learn the game and how to play it. But they aren't all Kasparovs, not by a long shot.

I'm not sure if you were actually playing epics pre-MOTU, but that system had a lot of problems, and was not a great end game by itself. It was very inaccessible to newer players because difficulty wasn't graduated and the drop rates in some of the content were (and still are) appalling.

There just wasn't that much to do in epics, because there weren't that many of them to do, and the entry timer only let you do the quests once per day. What you are forgetting is that at the time we had a much more vibrant raiding scene, which took pressure off epics as being an endgame all by themselves.

Going back to a system where there is a small number of quests which gives out special loot but is only available to a tiny proportion of the playerbase would be a massive mistake. If new content is developed, the whole playerbase should be able to enjoy it, otherwise it's an extremely inefficient use of developer time, and it will also lead to a lot of complaining here on the forums. Having different difficulty settings allows that.

I don't know the answer to a perfect endgame, but I think it partially consists of having a large number of raids which are enjoyable to replay and have some form of incentive, likely loot-based, to repeat them. Unfortunately material duping and timer bypasses are both big issues for this solution.

The epic level quests we have now can also be part of the endgame when run on EE, particularly for someone who has reached cap, maybe doesn't want to reincarnate again and again, but does want to become better at playing his/her character. If you can't already complete EE content, the eighty plus non-raid epic quests we have form a good and time consuming challenge. I had a lot of fun doing them first in groups and then attempting to solo them, and I'm not done with them all yet.

On a personal note, I think you would find these issues a lot less vexing if you sought out some good players on the your main server and learnt what you could from them. A lot of your posts include angry sounding references to 'elitists' and 'ubers', and being preoccupied with this division really seems to be doing your head in.

There are many very nice people who will gladly help you become a better player, just as they did for me and countless others. The game and the forums don't have to be a war between 'noobs' and veterans, and making the transition from being one to the other is just not that hard. It's all just a continuum, and with only effort and thought being required to move along it.

Good luck and thanks.