Severlin et al. - barbarian feedback

[SealedInSong]

First, thanks Severlin and crew -- it’s great seeing a pass on one of the classes that needs it most!

I'm not sure where else to put this feedback, so I'm starting it here (it doesn't seem appropriate to just stick this into one of the tree feedback threads).

Terms
barb=barbarian, amp = healing amplification (most will know this, but for clarity's sake)

***General DPS vs survivability***
Very free-form response here, but I think the player consensus is that we’re not seeing a lot of DPS in these trees, we’re just seeing a lot more survivability.

While I applaud the actions taken to make barbarians a living DPS machine in the game rather than a zero DPS soulstone, I don’t think all the additions of amp, hp, and self-healing are the best direction for the barb.

I think players WANT a reason to keep the barb alive. I don’t think we want more barbs to solo content, or for them to do similar amounts of DPS to a well-planned fighter/paladin/rogue/monk/bard or less DPS than a well-planned caster/archer.

The problem with barbarians is not that they *merely* aren’t as hardy as, say, a high dodge monk/high mitigation vanguard/great saves paladin/ranged character, it’s that the DPS they provide isn’t appreciably better than the above.

If you can make barbarians TRULY, MEASURABLY, VISIBLY out-dps balizarde swashbucklers, mortal fear shuriken slingers, fury archers, and greatsword kensais, then I think you’ll have really done your job. At that point, everyone in the party is going to want to cocoon the barbarian during the raid, and every healer is going to have a good incentive to Divine Intervention+reactive heal+babysit the barb.

Why? Because they’re actually useful in the party.

With the proposed changes, they’re merely functional again, not fulfilling a niche better than all other melees that they were always meant to fill.

***Generic healing amp***
I don't think that this is the route to go for barbs.

Amp is not a barb trait
Amp has never been and should never be the province of barbs, and now it looks like they can get more amp than all of the amp-focused classes combined (read: monks, paladins). Even if we were to do another pass of the other classes to give their amp focus back to them relative to barbs, that just seems like a slippery slope.

What I don't want to see
I do NOT want to see everyone jump on the barb train for amp, then later have monks/paladins get a crazy boost to amp, and have another paradigm shift where everyone wants/needs to LR. Of course this is natural in an evolving game, but the evolution should never look like the sharp curves of say, shiradi casters becoming the most viable epic casters overnight (not good design).

Moreover, if you want to give amp a pass and then give barbs an absurd amount, at least ratchet up monk/paladin amp to comparable levels.

What I'd like to see:
*perhaps ONE of the barb trees getting good amp that is COMPARABLE but not exceeding amp from monk/paladin classes
*more logic behind amp gain, i.e. start a line of enhancements that increases DR at the expense of AC, increases amp at the expense of HP, etc
*more DPS mutations in the barb trees
*more damage mitigation (i.e. "I'm a barb, I'm shrugging off the pain through my rage")

***Healing abilities***
The following T5 healing abilities have been proposed, and here is my assessment:

Occult Slayer:
Ancestral Bond: (1/1/1 AP) Expend all stacks of weapon bond. For each stack expended you are healed for 2 hit points. This healing scales with 100% Melee Power. Cooldown: 60/20/10 seconds. Passive: +10/+20/+30 HP and +4/+8/+12 Magical Resistance Rating.

Vampiric Bond: (1 AP) If weapon bond is 150+: Your weapon provides you 20 temporary hit points when you damage an enemy. These temporary hit points scale with 200% Melee Power. This can trigger at most once every 12/9/6 seconds.

These two are GOOD.
They have a *cost*, i.e. you have to expend some DPS and build up to them. The amount of healing that you get per minute is respectable but not overpowered.

Frenzied Berserker
Accelerated Metabolism: (2 AP) While raging you heal 2d6 hit points every 4 seconds. This healing scales with 100% Melee Power.

This is OKAY.
Most characters that take 5 barb levels, be it for T5 enhancements or otherwise, are going to want to be raged while fighting.

Thus, though there is a cost of being raged (spellcasting prohibited, defensive stances negated, etc), there is no “true” cost to the healing that one pays for getting Accelerated Metabolism.

Other than that, I think that the ability is relatively weak which is a good thing; I don’t think that all barb trees should get the ability to burst heal like Occult Slayer, which is more defensively oriented than Frenzied Berserker.

Ravager
Blood Strength: (2 AP) Each time you land a hit you are healed for 1d4 hit points. Each time you kill an opponent you are healed for 1d20 hit points. This healing scales with 100% Melee Power.

This ability is BAD because it’s extremely strong.
Consider the costs found in other healing abilities:
Healing Ki (similar mechanic, costs Ki, must mark target with cooldown)
cure effects (cost mana or limited use, on cooldown)
ameliorating strike (on strike mechanic, long cooldown)
Ancestral Bond (sacrificed DPS, takes time to scale heal to appreciable levels)
Accelerated Metabolism/Vampiric Bond (small heals and small temp hp, respectively)

Now, I’m not entirely opposed to the mechanic of this ability, but I do think that there needs to be some kind of associated cost. I’m not the best at suggesting mechanics, but given the power of this ability, I’d suggest revamping the Fury mechanic and making more DPS tied to how many Fury stacks you have (remove the cap of 6) so that you actually have to sacrifice some DPS to use this ability.

Others have made more nuanced comments on how the Fury-building abilities have odd mechanics that let you either sit at 0 or full stacks of Fury too often, making the stacks pretty much a moot point, so I’d reference those.

***Barbarian class abilities***
This may be outside the scope of this discussion because you’re mostly touching enhancements, rather than class abilities, but please consider the following:

Move amp abilities to barbarian class abilities!
Rather than having cookie-cutter/copy+paste effects in each core series of the barbarian trees, move amp and HP to barbarian cores.

This allows you to focus more on giving character and life to each tree.

Suggestion: choose between amp and DR
I would much rather have barbs choose between the following feats at 1,3,6,12,18,20

“Ancestral body” / “Primal skin”
Choose to increase amp OR choose to increase scalable DR

Any other amp or DR enhancements you take can further customize the type of barbarian you want to be (bigger incoming heals or more damage ignored), but at the core, I don’t think the all barbarians should be getting what I’m seeing proposed:
*tons of amp
*tons of hp
*DR from a system that’s outdated and overwhelmingly nonfunctional in current epic content

***the Rage ability needs to scale better***
As others have pointed out, at one point in the game, Mighty Rage (and its interim counterparts) was powerful:
The bonuses of the barbarian's rage increase to a total of +8 strength, +8 constitution and +4 to will saving throws but the barbarian still incurs a reduction of his Armor Class by 2.

Now, however, lvl 12 kensais are getting +8 str without blocking out spellcasting (read: self healing). Monks in grandmaster earth are getting plenty of con and better critical profiles. Our enchanted items give us +11 str, in some cases.

There's just not a good incentive in this game to be Raged.

My suggestion: change the Rage Barbarian class ability to give a 5% rage bonus to melee AND ranged power, 3% rage to HP, +4 rage bonus to will saves, and 5% penalty to PRR.

Related:
greater rage gives 10% bonus to MP and RP
mighty rage gives 15%" " without fatigue

There we have a truly scalable reason to fly into a rage and lose all of our spellcasting ability.

***Seriously rework this capstone***
Visage of Terror: (1 AP, Level 20) Terrorize an enemy, killing them with fear if they fail a Will save vs 10 + Constitution modifier + half barbarian level. Enemies who make their saving throw are briefly paralyzed with fear instead. (Cost 1 Rage. Cooldown: 30 seconds. Passive: You gain +4 Constitution, +150 hit points and +40 healing amplification.

The other capstones are situationally useful, but NO ONE, unless they’re the most inexperienced player and even then they will be quickly disabused of the utility, will use this effect.

The only way I’d ever consider expending a rage, which could be used for increased DPS over a long period of time (much more than required to kill one instakill-susceptible monster) or for a sprint boost (actually useful--I do use this in quests just to be able to use a sprint effect on a separate timer from sprint action boost) would be if the save were:
10 + Con mod + character level (which would make it actually viable)
Area of effect

That way it’d be a unique panic button that barbs don’t have at the moment.

Thanks for reading!

[blerkington]

Hi,

Very interesting reading and good ideas.

Thanks.

[dunklezhan]

While I applaud the actions taken to make barbarians a living DPS machine in the game rather than a zero DPS soulstone, I don’t think all the additions of amp, hp, and self-healing are the best direction for the barb.

I think players WANT a reason to keep the barb alive. I don’t think we want more barbs to solo content, or for them to do similar amounts of DPS to a well-planned fighter/paladin/rogue/monk/bard or less DPS than a well-planned caster/archer.

The problem with barbarians is not that they *merely* aren’t as hardy as, say, a high dodge monk/high mitigation vanguard/great saves paladin/ranged character, it’s that the DPS they provide isn’t appreciably better than the above.

If you can make barbarians TRULY, MEASURABLY, VISIBLY out-dps balizarde swashbucklers, mortal fear shuriken slingers, fury archers, and greatsword kensais, then I think you’ll have really done your job. At that point, everyone in the party is going to want to cocoon the barbarian during the raid, and every healer is going to have a good incentive to Divine Intervention+reactive heal+babysit the barb.

Why? Because they’re actually useful in the party.

I didn't read the whole post - I'm sure you have some great ideas, but I thought this bit encapsulated what you're trying to say best. I also agree.

Barb is perceived as a 'simple' class for a reason. It's not a criticism, its just because barb is the class with the clearest path: when you play a barb you know what you want - you want to smash, and you want to be able to do it but good. To hell with healing, tactics, cleverness, you want to scream in something's face and then do frightening DPS while it cowers in abject terror. You want to hulk out - they get Rage for a reason.

So I am *fine* with the barb not getting self heals or any of that (though healing amp I actually think is fair enough), but only on the exact proviso you give - their DPS should be monumental, and they should require help to stay up. Barbarians are just too angry to look after themselves. Frankly the idea that they ought to have a full time carer to make sure they eat and go potty in addition to pouring in the positive energy doesn't seem that unreasonable to me!

[Vellrad]

In order to make healing a barb worthwile buffing his DPS is not enough.
First you would have to make healing less boring that watching grass grow.

[FestusHood]

I would like to see them remove all the heal amp bonuses from the cores of Frenzied Berserker. Replace them with melee power in these amounts: 5,5,5,5,5,15 (capstone). Forty melee power from cores for a pure fb.

Leave the heal amp bonuses in occult slayer. For me, that's the best tree for them.

Ravager, i don't know. So many abilities in that tree do stat damage which doesn't work in epic. In the current game, i don't think you should concentrate on abilities which essentially become useless once you hit level 20.

[Qhualor]

I understand that putting heal amp in the cores for every tree may not be thematical or the best way to boost healing from barbs, but its an easy "fix" for a class that is strapped to potions for healing.

compare the heal amp of a current Paladin, Monk or any other build within reason that can cast spells, twist EDs, use scrolls or use wands without any penalty. it will be significantly higher than a barbarian, even with good heal amp, that has to use CSW pots. SF pots already can heal for 500+ but has severe penalties, requires a favor unlock, they are expensive and can only stack in 10's filling an entire bag tab or more.

I think people will change their tune once they can actually see for themselves in game when heal amp changes become additive and realize that barbs are still getting hit hard with no DR defense upgrade for them still. they still will be chain chugging CSW pots or crippled the entire quest having to drink SF pots despite the increase in barb power. its one thing to be worried that "barbs are going to zerg/solo the game with these changes" or "barbs will have the best heal amp and heal better than my max heal amp Monk build", but its another when they still wont be getting enough of a dps boost for it to be kill mobs > be killed. barbs would need to be putting out double the max dps currently in the game before anyone should worry about them being so OP with healing.

[SealedInSong]

I think people will change their tune once they can actually see for themselves in game when heal amp changes become additive and realize that barbs are still getting hit hard with no DR defense upgrade for them still. they still will be chain chugging CSW pots or crippled the entire quest having to drink SF pots despite the increase in barb power. its one thing to be worried that "barbs are going to zerg/solo the game with these changes" or "barbs will have the best heal amp and heal better than my max heal amp Monk build", but its another when they still wont be getting enough of a dps boost for it to be kill mobs > be killed. barbs would need to be putting out double the max dps currently in the game before anyone should worry about them being so OP with healing.

I agree with this, except:

Don't make barbs the amp standard right off the bat
My point, however, is that we shouldn't bathe barbarians in heal amp and then have to go around and ramp up healing amp for everyone else, AGAIN. Or worse, find out that there is some unintended consequence to introducing that much at one time and having to nerf it.

I'd much rather see more damage mitigation (in theme, these would be DR mechanics) added in tandem with a modest amount of amp that doesn't exceed top amp achievers (monk, pal).

Give barbarians the highest possible crit possibilities
Their destiny in spirit (Fury of the Wild) gives that to us, now give barbs that feature as a class.

Give them fewer of these weird amp/hp inflations, but do give them a well-deserved crown as the reigning crit class.

Skills-based enhancements
One thing that I forgot to mention is that I think each class-based focused revamp should include a few enhancements that make class skills relevant.

For bards, everyone saw Perform get transformed from an extremely good situational class skill to one that really defines the class. (Previously, one could argue Perform defined bards already, but it was in a CC niche that rarely got a lot of use from parties except in very well-coordinated parties that acknowledged the power of the skill.)

Barbs have the following class-based skills:
intimdate (cha), jump (str), listen (wis), swim (str)

My suggestions
Visage of Terror:
keep the cruddy DC and cooldown but change it to share a cooldown with Intimidate, with *no rage cost*. That way, you can either put your Intimidate on a 30s cooldown and see if you can lucky with instakilling/paralyzing a single monster, or keep your intim timer open.

Jump:
Give one tree -- Frenzied Berserker (weakest "defensive" and offensive tree) suggested -- an abundant step ability. Make its cooldown relatively long (60s) with no charges (i.e. unlimited use) with the cooldown *reduced* with a higher jump skill (make it a % reduction so there's no hard cap).

Listen:
Obviously should go in Occult Slayer. Give this tree a skill that gives an action boost bonus to Reflex save vs magical effects with a duration based off of your listen skill. Make it significant enough that people will actually activate it.

Swim:
Change the Athletics enhancement from this:
Athletics: +1/+2/+3 Balance, Jump, Swim.
Rank 3: When you activate Barbarian Rage, you gain +35% Action Boost bonus to movement speed for 20 seconds.

To:
Athletics: +1/+2/+3 Balance, Jump, Swim.
Rank 2: Gain half your Swim skill as a bonus to movement while swimming and flying.
Rank 3: When you activate Barbarian Rage, you gain +35% Action Boost bonus to movement speed for 20 seconds.

I like seeing relatively irrelevant skills become situationally useful, no matter how rarely.

[Chai]

A major part of the issue is the reliance on outside healing being the most efficient way to keep them alive - something other classes have long since shed. If this game had not already moved so far away from D&D in that respect, id support barbarians not having self healing, but since this line was already crossed quite a few years ago now, I think they should have the same self healing opportunities as others. If the argument is they shouldn't have it, then neither should sorcs or wizards, who should be the glass cannons of DDO. Couple that with a general consensus in the community where people refuse to heal others, and the only real way to ensure the class will be played and enjoyed is increased self sufficiency.

[theRolf]

I understand that putting heal amp in the cores for every tree may not be thematical or the best way to boost healing from barbs, but its an easy "fix" for a class that is strapped to potions for healing.

compare the heal amp of a current Paladin, Monk or any other build within reason that can cast spells, twist EDs, use scrolls or use wands without any penalty. it will be significantly higher than a barbarian, even with good heal amp, that has to use CSW pots. SF pots already can heal for 500+ but has severe penalties, requires a favor unlock, they are expensive and can only stack in 10's filling an entire bag tab or more.

I think people will change their tune once they can actually see for themselves in game when heal amp changes become additive and realize that barbs are still getting hit hard with no DR defense upgrade for them still. they still will be chain chugging CSW pots or crippled the entire quest having to drink SF pots despite the increase in barb power. its one thing to be worried that "barbs are going to zerg/solo the game with these changes" or "barbs will have the best heal amp and heal better than my max heal amp Monk build", but its another when they still wont be getting enough of a dps boost for it to be kill mobs > be killed. barbs would need to be putting out double the max dps currently in the game before anyone should worry about them being so OP with healing.

true - the flavor of a barb is kill, kill, kill. Just that simple, like the OP said. healing should be challenging but not impossible (but without penalty). Simple as that

[Uska]

To much amp(any would be really but it way overboard) not enough dps or damage mitigation

[SealedInSong]

A major part of the issue is the reliance on outside healing being the most efficient way to keep them alive - something other classes have long since shed. If this game had not already moved so far away from D&D in that respect, id support barbarians not having self healing, but since this line was already crossed quite a few years ago now, I think they should have the same self healing opportunities as others. If the argument is they shouldn't have it, then neither should sorcs or wizards, who should be the glass cannons of DDO. Couple that with a general consensus in the community where people refuse to heal others, and the only real way to ensure the class will be played and enjoyed is increased self sufficiency.

Barbs having healing abilities to me is okay.

What I'd improve from Severlin's suggestions:
give Blood Strength some kind of associated cost, rather than free "hit something and heal yourself" all the time
take all amp and HP enhancement cores and put them as multiselector barb class feats
give the three barb trees unique and flavorful cores, i.e. for FB: more DPS mutations over damage mitigation, OS: more damage mitigation over DPS mutations, Ravager: more fear-type effects

Another important feature I neglected to mention in the OP:
***the Rage ability needs to scale better***
As others have pointed out, at one point in the game, Mighty Rage (and its interim counterparts) was powerful:
The bonuses of the barbarian's rage increase to a total of +8 strength, +8 constitution and +4 to will saving throws but the barbarian still incurs a reduction of his Armor Class by 2.

Now, however, lvl 12 kensais are getting +8 str without blocking out spellcasting (read: self healing). Monks in grandmaster earth are getting plenty of con and better critical profiles. Our enchanted items give us +11 str, in some cases.

There's just not a good incentive in this game to be Raged.

My suggestion: change the Rage Barbarian class ability to give a 5% rage bonus to melee AND ranged power, 3% rage to HP, +4 rage bonus to will saves, and 5% penalty to PRR.

Related:
greater rage gives 10% bonus to MP and RP
mighty rage gives 15%" " without fatigue

There we have a truly scalable reason to fly into a rage and lose all of our spellcasting ability.

[Scrabbler]

There's just not a good incentive in this game to be Raged.

You don't care about critical hit chance? Then why is it that all current Barbarian players use Rage for every combat, if they don't have an incentive?

[FranOhmsford]

[B]
If you can make barbarians TRULY, MEASURABLY, VISIBLY out-dps balizarde swashbucklers, mortal fear shuriken slingers, fury archers, and greatsword kensais, then I think you’ll have really done your job. At that point, everyone in the party is going to want to cocoon the barbarian during the raid, and every healer is going to have a good incentive to Divine Intervention+reactive heal+babysit the barb.

Why? Because they’re actually useful in the party.

What are we talking about here?
Surely not Kill Count?

Can you honestly say that if the best Barb Player in DDO ran a quest with the best Swashbuckler in DDO {and a Dedicated Cleric standing back not doing ANY DPS or CC herself and keeping them both honest} their DPS wouldn't be roughly equal?

Ditto for the other builds you've mentioned?


The biggest difference between characters is the player behind said character after all - Overvaan playing a Barb is going to out DPS me playing a Greatsword Kensei no matter what!

Swashbucklers currently may be an easy button build for middle of the road players BUT put two equally great players in a quest where DPS is measurable {there aren't too many of these} one playing a Pure Swashbuckler and the other playing a Pure Ravager and isn't there a chance that the Ravager would come out on top?


Let's not count multi-class builds here as we're talking about the actual Pure Barb and comparing him to a multiclass Uber Build is just plain unfair as I'm sure {as others have pointed out} that these changes will result in more people splashing Barb or multi-classing Barbs too!

[Chai]

You don't care about critical hit chance? Then why is it that all current Barbarian players use Rage for every combat, if they don't have an incentive?

An incentive other melee can now have without giving up their ability to do most everything else.

[SealedInSong]

You don't care about critical hit chance? Then why is it that all current Barbarian players use Rage for every combat, if they don't have an incentive?

So yes, I care about critical hit change. But, as Chai says below:

An incentive other melee can now have without giving up their ability to do most everything else.

Many other classes get good crit chance that doesn't preclude them from dying in a handful of hits on EE. Ranged characters can do this without getting hit *at all*.

Because I don't think that barbarians should have the same self-healing capability as paladins, monks, warpriests, and any other class where Blood Strength appears to be exceeding other classes' healing ability, I think barbarians should have a truly recognizable advantage in the crits/melee department.

They DON'T at the moment.