Pale Knight the undead warrior. Possible?

[Knight_Marshal]

I have been looking at the pale master and the EK stuff and would like to see if it is possible to make undead warrior with as much of the good stuff as possible or even if it would be worth the trouble. Can you get enough ASF reduction for plate armor? Going for the whole death knight image maybe with a two handed sword if a shield isn't needed.

I don't have any of the non basic races except Drow. I don't have artificer, druid, favored soul or harper.

Can it be done in a viable way?

[Scrabbler]

Sure, you can be an undead melee warrior. Just don't get too attached to the idea of real Plate armor.

Plate is 35% ASF. The EK tree can reduce 35% and Drow can reduce 15%, and some items could also reduce while saving AP. But you'd need proficiency as well, and that's 3 feats unless you take a level of Fighter, Paladin, or Cleric (which would also get you some AP options).

I don't recommend going for plate armor, though. If you stay to Light armor and take Bard3, then you can use Intelligence for weapon damage and have some great critical bonuses. You could choose Wiz17/Bard3 (to have level 9 spells), or Wiz15/Bard3/Rog2 (level 8 spells, but trap disarming and Evasion reflex). The variant with Rog2 has been popular now that trap disarming gives so much XP; and Evasion's always been great.

But if you really wanted the heavier armor and strength-based melee, that can work too.

[Wh070aa]

I would really suggest getting harper. Only viable way to get to hit, and damige at least in my opinion. Also splashing more than 2 levels of something else will make you miss litch (wrath is good, but the +int, con, and necromancy dc are really nice). EK tree will make you miss out on a lot of dc (-2 int from not taking capstone, -2 dc from tensers, all that for full bab, and +2 damage(assuming no int to damage)). On top of that you have d4 HP, and that is not very good, even with aura healing, and stoneskin/displacement. Don't even think about drow/elf, because you will have bad time with HP even on full time casters on them (unless a lot of gear/tomes).
Heavy armor means spell failure. 2 handed weapon means gimping your spell damage. Being wizard means that your BAB for taking melee feats is really bad.(like you get 8 bab for critical at level 16). This also means less attack speed, and stuff, unless divine power clicky, or tensers.

Also you can get potency, and spell critical on ether weapons, or robes, which you don't use, gimping yourself of about 1/3rd of the available damage, and about 10 to 18% critical hit. As spells are your primary damage source as a wizard, well yea.

Only thing, I can can kinda suggest, is going for 6 to 8 wizard,12 to 14 whatever melee class (or 12 melee class, 2 rogue for traps and evasion (unless heavy armor) probably), giving you vampire form (REALLY weak to light damage (1 shot kills from it mostly), and you wont have good aura healing (because no levels), but then you can at least do melee stuff, and use wizard SLA's as backup. Maybe 12 levels of cleric, for harm spell, and divine power? But then there is a problem of stat spread(you need Wis, int, str, con), which will make you even more squishy, and force you to wear items (taking up gear slots).

Also weapon proficiencies and melee power. Anyhow there are a lot of problems with melee wizard, especially without harper (the only tree, that you actually get melee damage from, on int based builds). Maybe 2 levels of rouge for light armor/evasion, or ranger(meh), and get spell implements, that you are proficient with, and 2 weapon fight, or go wrath with dagger specialization, as far as viability goes.

Or you can just max out your knight pet, and let him do stuff for you (lol). Not the best option, but hey you have knight hitting monsters, whit a wizard supporting him.

[Knight_Marshal]

I may have enough points to get harper, I will have to check.

I should have pointed out in my OP that this build isn't for end game elite EE (whatever that is) dungeons, it is just to have a fun build to level with either solo or in small groups. I do plan on having the skele pet. I think I can buff its stats up to handle all doors, runes and levers that I can't leaving me to take care of traps, locks and secret doors. I think you can do this with two levels of rogue if you take it at level 1 and 9th?

I noticed that T4 EK gives you medium armor prof, will that count towards the count needed for plate?

My spells could mostly be buffs and other spells that don't require a dc save.

[Tokeri]

im playing a 18/2 wiz/rog atm with harper it really makes or breaks this build imho i only got 2 primary stats int and con

im playing a wf with the mithral body feat and focusing on being tanky rather then doing great meele damage lets be honest here even if you devote 100% of your feats into being a meele wizard you will still be a lackluster meele, but a harper wizard build can have good dc's and decent meele with near invincible defenses. drop a couple of aoe persistent effects like cloud kill or firewall and just tank stuff in it while hitting things s&b style while fireballs and eldrich strikes goes off
(star of irian is a great lvl 8 weapon you can add some item augments to, to make it a really good hybrid weapons im running it with combustion&nullification atm going to swap it out at 14 for the gh axe before that i used the biggest baddest 2hander the ah had to offer)

my enchantments are mixed between wf racials, harper, ek and pm so much lowhanging hp fruit in those trees it feels ilegal in the mid levels :P

im only aiming to get the 15% shield asf from ek with the hp and proficensies, and t5 palemaster ofcourse il selfcast tensors until i hit ED's
im going to tr as soon as i hit cap though might stay above 20 just to run some quest to see how it works but right now its a monster aoe-tank if there is such a thing trash-tank maybe is the correct term ?
i would go fleshy if i could do it all over again. im knocking of a quick wizard life with what im currently running i wanted to try harper and im not disapointed, full dc caster with some decent meele capabilites its fun as hell. but im a bit biased i love the 18/2 wiz/rog split already the harper tree just made it 260% more fun and powerfull, not that heroics needed that but hey im a walking spiked wall of doom thats spits fireballs im not going to complain hehe
im built for evasion though, i guess fullplate is a possibility, you would need some racial asf reduction and i would probly still pick up 1 rog for traps and 18 wiz, so a 18/1/1 wiz/rog/fgt, i wouldt recommend a deeper splash, for example a 12/6/2 would basicly make you an arcane bard.

tl:dr - id suggest tanky caster s&b wizard over a 2h meele dps wizard

[Knight_Marshal]

How is the skeleton knight pet? The only information I can find on it is before the updates as far as I can tell. It sounds good on paper except for the only between rests summoning.

[Saekee]

Tokeri, that sounds like an interesting build!

Knight_Marshal, have you considered the Warpriest Tier 5 as another maxed BAB option? You could also go cleric or favored soul, though the latter may be wasted.

[Knight_Marshal]

Tokeri, that sounds like an interesting build!

Knight_Marshal, have you considered the Warpriest Tier 5 as another maxed BAB option? You could also go cleric or favored soul, though the latter may be wasted.

That would require me to go to level 5 in cleric from what the wiki says, so no lich form. Now if wraith for is good enough, that might be doable as I would only need level 12 wizard and could still work a few rogue levels in for those pesky locks and traps.

EDIT: I just looked and other than the extra +2 strength from warpriest, Tensors Transformation which would be a toggle gives a BAB equal to my level and +4 to str, con and dex. Thought both seem to give a + 6 to armor along the way, with the warpriest allowing for more strength gains.

[Saekee]

That would require me to go to level 5 in cleric from what the wiki says, so no lich form. Now if wraith for is good enough, that might be doable as I would only need level 12 wizard and could still work a few rogue levels in for those pesky locks and traps.

EDIT: I just looked and other than the extra +2 strength from warpriest, Tensors Transformation which would be a toggle gives a BAB equal to my level and +4 to str, con and dex. Thought both seem to give a + 6 to armor along the way, with the warpriest allowing for more strength gains.

The Tenser's ability bonuses stack with all others; I do not believe the Warpriest +6 does (enhancement), making it mostly useless.
If you plan to go high in the Wizard levels, you can cast Tensor's Transformation. With Extend, it will last plenty of time so as to not require the Tier 5 of Eldritch Knight. I assume that those that take Tier 5 of Eldritch knight do not have many wizard levels. Tensor's requires 11 levels of Wizard, assuming one does not scroll it.

[Knight_Marshal]

The Tenser's ability bonuses stack with all others; I do not believe the Warpriest +6 does (enhancement), making it mostly useless.
If you plan to go high in the Wizard levels, you can cast Tensor's Transformation. With Extend, it will last plenty of time so as to not require the Tier 5 of Eldritch Knight. I assume that those that take Tier 5 of Eldritch knight do not have many wizard levels. Tensor's requires 11 levels of Wizard, assuming one does not scroll it.

According to the wiki, the spell version requires a potion of bull's strength to cast it, so that could get pricey having to cast that every combat. I have to level 20+ characters with a bank roll of plat. My highest character is only 12th.

[unbongwah]

I've attempted to theorycraft a Lich Knight.

[Myrddinman]

According to the wiki, the spell version requires a potion of bull's strength to cast it, so that could get pricey having to cast that every combat. I have to level 20+ characters with a bank roll of plat. My highest character is only 12th.

I once thought the same thing, but on my Jack Jibbers build (12 Wizard/6 Bard/2 Rogue Swashbuckler) I can keep up Tenser's (Extended...lasts about 2:40) all the time (even on EE...mostly) with marginal plat investment. The plat you'll get from vendoring loot after just one quest (with minimal Haggle) will be enough to buy a stack of potions that will last you for a while.

Just noticed that your highest in level 12, which will make it a bit more challenging until you reach higher levels (probably level 16+). As far as earning plat, it's pretty easy if you do a bit of research on what collectibles sell on the AH (Fragrant Drowshrood, Vial of Pure Water, Deadly Feverblanch...etc), along with breaking everything (there's quite a bit of vendor trash that'll spill-out, along with plat and gems) and selling loot at the Pawn Brokers versus the Tavern. There's quite a few really good guides for earning plat on the forums as well.

[adrian69]

I have been looking at the pale master and the EK stuff and would like to see if it is possible to make undead warrior with as much of the good stuff as possible or even if it would be worth the trouble. Can you get enough ASF reduction for plate armor? Going for the whole death knight image maybe with a two handed sword if a shield isn't needed.

I don't have any of the non basic races except Drow. I don't have artificer, druid, favored soul or harper.

Can it be done in a viable way?

Ok. I will speak to your from current experience, as I have put about $60 bucks worth of Lesser Hearts in Hulluuk over the last few weeks to answer this question (I have a post I'll update soon). You get a lot of people who say this and say that, and I will confer with them, unless you have at least +4 tomes, a bunch of melee past lives with fvs and cleric in there, Undead EK doesn't work right for many reasons as anything other than a flavor build.

Let me explain.

Taking the forms and death aura through heroics is ok for survivability, but that ends in epics as you don't have the right mix of spell power.
Feats selection: You need to know for sure what is going to be important with metas, DCs, and melee feats.
Enhancement Pts. There is simply not enough. Let's say you want Wraith. That's 21 pts. Nothing past tier four in the EK tree is better than what you will get anywhere else, the -25% dmg proc spell shield is awesome, none of the rest is. Sure, Tensor Toggle? Just spell or scroll it. The other stuff is horrible, trust me.
Class split. The only way to get decent DCs is to go at least 17 wizard, however, Lich form is far superior as a caster or melee, but that put you at have 1d4+18 wizard lvls with 9 BAB.

I am running 18 wizard 2 monk at the moment in Lich with Shiradi and loving it. However, I have +30 hp from barb PLs, +3 to hit from fighter, +2 dmg from monk, 2 ranger PLs a FvS, 3 Artificer which all help me. I also have +5 and 6 tomes. My feats are Maximize, Heighten, extend, Necro, Greater Necro, Enchantment, Evocation, Spell Penetration, TWF, Precision, Toughness, Insightful Reflexes, and active monk PL Feat, and that's just heroic. As you see I am missing a whole bunch of stuff that could make melee better. However, I only melee in a few situations. I'm on normal, or I'm out of mana. Otherwise, spells are far superior.

My stats are 15 str/12 dex/17 con/17 Int/8 wis/9 chr.

[Knight_Marshal]

Ok. I will speak to your from current experience, as I have put about $60 bucks worth of Lesser Hearts in Hulluuk over the last few weeks to answer this question (I have a post I'll update soon). You get a lot of people who say this and say that, and I will confer with them, unless you have at least +4 tomes, a bunch of melee past lives with fvs and cleric in there, Undead EK doesn't work right for many reasons as anything other than a flavor build.

Let me explain.

Taking the forms and death aura through heroics is ok for survivability, but that ends in epics as you don't have the right mix of spell power.
Feats selection: You need to know for sure what is going to be important with metas, DCs, and melee feats.
Enhancement Pts. There is simply not enough. Let's say you want Wraith. That's 21 pts. Nothing past tier four in the EK tree is better than what you will get anywhere else, the -25% dmg proc spell shield is awesome, none of the rest is. Sure, Tensor Toggle? Just spell or scroll it. The other stuff is horrible, trust me.
Class split. The only way to get decent DCs is to go at least 17 wizard, however, Lich form is far superior as a caster or melee, but that put you at have 1d4+18 wizard lvls with 9 BAB.

I am running 18 wizard 2 monk at the moment in Lich with Shiradi and loving it. However, I have +30 hp from barb PLs, +3 to hit from fighter, +2 dmg from monk, 2 ranger PLs a FvS, 3 Artificer which all help me. I also have +5 and 6 tomes. My feats are Maximize, Heighten, extend, Necro, Greater Necro, Enchantment, Evocation, Spell Penetration, TWF, Precision, Toughness, Insightful Reflexes, and active monk PL Feat, and that's just heroic. As you see I am missing a whole bunch of stuff that could make melee better. However, I only melee in a few situations. I'm on normal, or I'm out of mana. Otherwise, spells are far superior.

My stats are 15 str/12 dex/17 con/17 Int/8 wis/9 chr.

As I said earlier, this is not for end game elite epics. I will probably not ever get to 20 on it, so I guess you could say it is a flavor build. For the most part, I will either be solo or in a small group. I doubt we will do quests on elite since unless they changed things from the last time we played, the rewards are not worth the effort.

I am basically looking for a fun build that can do normal or hard missions either solo or with two friends, and can with the use of spells or the skeleton pet, open all the doors, levers and runes I might find. Most of the spells will probably be buff types or those that either don't have a dc save or at least do half damage helping me to finish them off with the sword.

[adrian69]

As I said earlier, this is not for end game elite epics. I will probably not ever get to 20 on it, so I guess you could say it is a flavor build. For the most part, I will either be solo or in a small group. I doubt we will do quests on elite since unless they changed things from the last time we played, the rewards are not worth the effort.

I am basically looking for a fun build that can do normal or hard missions either solo or with two friends, and can with the use of spells or the skeleton pet, open all the doors, levers and runes I might find. Most of the spells will probably be buff types or those that either don't have a dc save or at least do half damage helping me to finish them off with the sword.

I've been thinking this would be a fun flavor build that may more viable than it should. I'm trying to through this out to you in the time that I have, so feel free to ask me questions or and I am sure someone else may see things that may work out better.

1. rogue- Insightful Reflexes or SWF (take both if human, and take toughness at lvl 3.)
2. Wizard- Spell Focus: Evocation or Enchantment (Do you want spells to hit more or would you rather hold better. I like holding, but your choice, but evo probably will be better for missiles and such).
3. Bard- The feat you didn't take at Level 1.
4. Wizard
5. Bard
6. Wizard- Greater Evo or Enchant
7. Bard-
8. Wizard
9. Rogue. Improved SWF
Rest of levels are wizard, of course.
10- Wizard Maximize
12- IC: Piercing
15- Precision or Power Attack, and Extend (For Death Aura's and Tensors [if you choose to cast it])
18- Spell Penetration.
20-Heighten
21 GSWF


Ok, that got you to 21.

Stats: 28 32 36 Human Just the key ones
Str 13 13 13 for power attack (can drop some for precision) starting 10 isn't a bad thing.
Dex 13 13 13 for precision- starting 10 isn't a bad thing here either for better evasion, not necessary.
Con 15 (try for 16) 16 17
Int 16 (at least-try for max) 17 18
wis 8
chr 8 (starting 10 here isn't a bad idea either, but not necessary. Just thing UMD for those times you need to scroll heal when out of SP)

You need to put 4 pts in balance right off. I'd put 4 in perform as well. Get both to 7 and stop. That's all you need for SWF or any bard related thing with your levels.

Focus trapping skill if you chose to do so. If not, max concentration and spell power and UMD. This would be the easier way. Rogue is there for evasion pretty much. You could swap it for 2 ftr or barb (1:30 of +4 more con on boss fights.)


You'll be going int to dmg through swashbuckler and taking swashbuckling style to use buckler for +10% dodge. That's what your aim should be. It allows you more powerful goodies on the way to getting int to dmg. You'll only need get int to hit from harpers. If you don't have harpers, drop dex and get at strength to 14+6 item and buffs. Your hit should be fine.

All lvl ups into strength. With 8 charisma, you'll need a +4 item to the couple of spells you get. I'd take utility ones. You'll not have enough levels to make dps one's count.

21 pts to wraith-take the things that mitigate dmg and increase negative energy healing.

This should leave you with 45-50 pts to play with EK and archmage trees. Again, I'm remember a build I built at U22 that I never did get to, but I really like the idea of it.

15 wiz gets 8 lvl spells I think

[richieelias27]

Ok. I will speak to your from current experience, as I have put about $60 bucks worth of Lesser Hearts in Hulluuk over the last few weeks to answer this question (I have a post I'll update soon). You get a lot of people who say this and say that, and I will confer with them, unless you have at least +4 tomes, a bunch of melee past lives with fvs and cleric in there, Undead EK doesn't work right for many reasons as anything other than a flavor build.

Let me explain.

Taking the forms and death aura through heroics is ok for survivability, but that ends in epics as you don't have the right mix of spell power.
Feats selection: You need to know for sure what is going to be important with metas, DCs, and melee feats.
Enhancement Pts. There is simply not enough. Let's say you want Wraith. That's 21 pts. Nothing past tier four in the EK tree is better than what you will get anywhere else, the -25% dmg proc spell shield is awesome, none of the rest is. Sure, Tensor Toggle? Just spell or scroll it. The other stuff is horrible, trust me.
Class split. The only way to get decent DCs is to go at least 17 wizard, however, Lich form is far superior as a caster or melee, but that put you at have 1d4+18 wizard lvls with 9 BAB.

I am running 18 wizard 2 monk at the moment in Lich with Shiradi and loving it. However, I have +30 hp from barb PLs, +3 to hit from fighter, +2 dmg from monk, 2 ranger PLs a FvS, 3 Artificer which all help me. I also have +5 and 6 tomes. My feats are Maximize, Heighten, extend, Necro, Greater Necro, Enchantment, Evocation, Spell Penetration, TWF, Precision, Toughness, Insightful Reflexes, and active monk PL Feat, and that's just heroic. As you see I am missing a whole bunch of stuff that could make melee better. However, I only melee in a few situations. I'm on normal, or I'm out of mana. Otherwise, spells are far superior.

My stats are 15 str/12 dex/17 con/17 Int/8 wis/9 chr.

My personal experience with a melee Arcane Wiz/FvS (18/2) is that it absolutely is viable in Epics. This is with ZERO past lives and ZERO raid gear. Everything I am wearing on my Wizard is easily farmable by a casual player (which I am), and can Solo up to Epic Hard while still killing things at a very good pace.

First off - You do have enough AP's to:

Cap out PM tree with Lich Form. I also recommend a single rank in the Skelly pet (and only one rank. anything more is a waste in my opionion)
Get up to chain missiles from AM
Get -10% ASF (There are a few Medium Armors with only 10%) and Mage Armor + Shield from EK
Get INT to Attack and Damage from Harper (If you want. I did)
Get -15% ASF from Elf racial

Slot a -10% ASF gem, or wear an item that does the same and you are able to wear Full Plate. Otherwise with -25% ASF you can still wear Mithril FP (Only counts as Medium armor for PR/MR Purposes. Sounds like a bug)

From here you have a couple options.
1. Go Legendary Dreadnaught with full SWF and cleave and say "Screw it" to Spell penetration/Necro DC. Your damage in melee will be plenty for up to Epic Hard (I'm not much concerned with Epic Elite, having zero past lives anyway). This is what I am doing currently, and I only die when I do something stupid... like pull as many mobs as I can and then get tripped like a dope.

2. Go for Shiradi. Basically you are exactly the same as any other Shiradi Wizard, except you are wearing Full-Plate.

Survivability in any undead form is already ridiculous. Adding Full-Plate to the mix only makes it more so.



Also, I'd like to say that as far as Epic Hard is concerned, Death Aura absolutely is enough to keep you at full health even without fancy past lives and epic gear. I very rarely need to use N-Burst.

Sure, you wont be able to roll into Epic Elite with the above, but what build DOESNT need epic gear and several past lives to do anything in EE? (especially regarding spell DC's and spell penetration)

[ValariusK]

Seems like you could go drow, get the 15% racial for 3 AP, then add a blue augment to cut ASF by 15% (level 20 sapphire). Then with just a core or two in EK you could carry off plate with no problem.
The big killer for pale masters is light damage. Having plate MRR and perhaps a shield too would greatly cut down on that liability (skyvault tower shield?) If you're NOT a melee build, nonproficiency doesn't really hurt you much, and you could still get your pale master capstone.

[richieelias27]

Seems like you could go drow, get the 15% racial for 3 AP, then add a blue augment to cut ASF by 15% (level 20 sapphire). Then with just a core or two in EK you could carry off plate with no problem.
The big killer for pale masters is light damage. Having plate MRR and perhaps a shield too would greatly cut down on that liability (skyvault tower shield?) If you're NOT a melee build, nonproficiency doesn't really hurt you much, and you could still get your pale master capstone.

Yep, light damage would probably only be a serious problem in EE (I know it isnt an issue at all in EH) for my melee build.

MRR from even Medium armor puts a serious dent into how much damage you take from all spells. Including light spells.

[DirkTyrant]

Finger those annoying light-casting evil clerics!!