Barbarian - Ravager Changes

[brzytki]

Interesting.

Can somebody who believes in math tell me what Cacoon's average is?

With 182% Hamp and around 270 Spell Power i get hit on average for 118 HP.
1,82*3,7*5*3,5=118

But it's for everyone, costs SP, has a cooldown, is inerruptable if no quicken, goes away if you lose your Temp HP and available from lvl 20+.

[Severlin]

Are the core abilities cumulative? Hit points for example.

Yes.

Sev~

[Severlin]

Can you explain why limitations like this are used?

The internal cooldown will be gone. OP is updated.

Sev~

[Severlin]

Can't tell if this was supposed to change in some way or not. You only have a single cost listed (2 instead of 2/2) but the threat range still states a 1/2 bonus.

Fixed.

Sev~

[Severlin]

2. Last time I tried, the paralyze part of Ravager capstone didn't work. (Although I haven't been pure Barb in a long while)

We will look into this. If the capstone doesn't have an auto paralyze (works even if the save is made against death) then it is too weak.

Sev~

[bbqzor]

Here are the proposed changes for the Barbarian's Ravager tree. The Ravager has been updated to focus on blood rage, and as such the tree gives blood related abilities including the top ability to heal as the Ravager attacks foes. We've also moved some of the bonus damage to be force since there was no clear explanation or understanding of what creatures were affected by alignment based damage.

Hm. Thats new, will see how it plays out. As this was the weakest tree before (imo) a tightening of the focus to be on something is probably good, and moving away from conditional damage is also needed.

Core abilities

Still nothing to see here. Pain Touch is (100 melee power assumption) only 7 dps, barely noticeable even at level 3 when you can get this (and you certainly wont have 100 melee power at that point) and 14 dps at lv12. The will penalty from demoralize helps exactly one barbarian ability: the capstone, which doesnt arrive for 14 more levels (sigh). Having the lv18 core give you 3 stacks of a buff youve had since lv1 is seriously little reason to take 18 levels here. As for the capstone, where to begin. It eats rages, which is extremely costly for a barb, along with having a very poor DC (even at con 100 the dc is only 65... basically no way to ever land this beyond easy content/difficulties). I mean the healing amp is good, but thats been added to all barb trees so wont comment on it. These cores just plain need a rework. The levels the abilities arrive at makes no sense, the values are too small to matter, and the capstone is essentially a trap, spending a rage to maybe take out 1 mob is just not wise.

Tier One

Nothing here but old complaints. Inflicting AC penalties on mobs when they hit you isnt generally a strategy that encourages players to pursue it. The idea is to hit them without them hitting you.. this is like the inverse of that where you certainly get hit to maybe have a better chance to hit them. Its just counter intuitive and generally lowers your survivability. Maybe Do You Like Pain could be reworked to inflicting Vulnerability on the mobs (as in, they like pain, so they take more). Then you might actually want to use Hate to get hit, in order to amp your damage up. Thematic and not useless.

Tier Two (Requires Barbarian Level 2, 5 APs spent in tree)

Change to Fear Me is still weak, prior to this version it had no save at all (and also lasted longer). When the enhancement pass was done it was changed to the DC 13 save. Its already limited to an uptime of 6s every 15s due to the Intim cd. Pull the save entirely, at least that way you could use it to guarantee a -2 sv debuff in conjunction with other things (perhaps vulnerability as suggested in T1) to try and form some kind of combo. Its how it was for years before U18, and other situations already exist for no-save shaken (BF being the most common).

Mutilate is still useless due to stat damage, as many many mobs are immune to it. Change it from Damage to a Penalty or something, so that it can work on Epic mobs and things like Undead which you might want to do force damage to but cant land cha on.

I Like Pain needs a higher chance from whatever it is. Ive gone whole days of playing a barb (like 4-8 hrs) and seen in proc maybe twice. List the chance in the ability, no reason to make players guess, and make it something actually good. Like 5% might work. Every 20th hit you get 150 hp, thats workable and helps with the classes "need" to get hit for many of its enhancements.

Again, Cruel Cut.. this ability basically does nothing once you hit epic, and in whole chunks of content prior. As its the base for a chain of abilities, thats really lame. Any chance of getting this reworked to something like just +damage and -fort save? That can work on anything?

Tier Three (Requires Barbarian Level 3, 10 APs spent in tree)

Note, Aura of Fear is a penalty, as opposed to damage, which is why it doesnt get the comments above about mobs being immune to damage and this the ability.

Festering Wound again suffers from immunity issues. Anything immune to poison is immune to the effect, meaning the healing amp debuff lands on precious few things. Can you code those to be 2 different effects so they can land independently?

Tier Four (Requires Barbarian Level 4, 20 APs spent in tree)

Laughter.. hm. Its like +5 melee power if you can land crits, which in something like Fury is pretty easy to line up. Interesting, bit specific but at least a playable combo.

I Hit Back is too weak still. Even with (100 melee power assumption) thats 20% chance for 12d8 or ~11 dmg per hit. And 11 dmg guard for 3 AP isnt all that great. Why not make this ability as the name of it actually sounds? Add a chance for the barb to actually hit as if they had swung their weapon. Or maybe have it proc a buff "I Hit Back" which gives you 5% doublestrike for 20s or something, so when you get hit you hit more back. Just tired of seeing guards all over enhancement trees lately... they never keep pace with the game and rarely contribute meaningful damage.

Dismember is too random. Instead of all those random effects, make it a trigger-able Limb Chopping effect. Thats what the name implies, and thats the most desirable part of the ability. Even a top roll at 100 melee power is only ~5 dps (6d8=48, 200% of 100 melee power= x3, 144dmg/30s cd= 4.8 dps). Yea, 5 melee power for 1/3rd uptime is nice I guess, but no ones going to take an entire chain of AP to get 1.6 melee power avg. But a Limb Chop click is not only awesome thematically but helps a lot with what barbs struggle with: avoiding hits when they need to, and it lets this tree maybe take some early hits from a mob early on to trigger some abilities, and then slow them down to avoid drawing too much heat if they get low.

Tier Five (Requires Barbarian Level 5, Character Level 12, 30 APs spent in tree)

Eh, its a nice T5. But sinking 30 into the tree to get here hurts so bad. Blood Strength is what FB should have had, to actually address its problems. This class should get Accelerated Metabolism, so that it can heal over time as it chooses when to generate Hate to trigger abilities and then not to recover, healing between. Can we get those swapped? It makes basically no sense as is right now.

Critical Fury is good, sure. But it basically nullifies the lv18 core, and a large part of Laughter. It just makes spending points in the tree before here even more painful. I mean sure, self inflicted pain is the Ravager tree right... but theres no reason the PLAYER should feel it =p.

.....

Overall wow, what a trip. The "focus on blood rage" isnt there. You never cache your rage in to do stuff. You just get limited to 6 stacks, then like 50 ways to make sure you get all 6 stacks super fast, each of which kind of overrides the one before. The abilities still suffer from the HUGE limitation of stat damage being universally ignored, and thus ignoring those abilities. The Pain Touch dps and Force dps is so low when averaged out, that it just doesnt hold up at all. The capstone is still a total trap.

I think this tree needs another pass. And I hope some of the ideas and abilities can be shuffled a bit with the other trees. Blood Strength and Accelerated Metabolism need to swap. This tree needs to cop the "bond trade in" idea from OS, and offer some ways to "trade in" fury, rather than a ton of ways to ensure it sits at 6 stacks 24/7. The effects need to land more, from Shaken going back to no-save all the way to the Capstone costing a rage necessitating a more or less "no fail" dc (or better yet, remove the rage cost and make it cost fury, ya dig?). And finally, the uptime ratios need to be looked at. Barbs should burn bright, so bright they consume whatever theyre beating, but at some risk. This class burns for like 5s out of every 30s... too short to manage well given latency and related issues, and the brightness isnt there with such small things as 5 melee power or something as random as an attack with 4 possible effects or a guard with a 20% chance to do some small damage. You dont have the ac/prr/hp to sit there and take 100 swings for things to even out like a tank... you need consistency. Not like "the guard is on all the time" consistency, but maybe more like "spend 1 fury, for the next 20s you have a nice force guard with 100% proc, 1 min cd" so it can actually have a useful dmg value.

Hopefully the feedback helps. Unlike FB which I think went the wrong direction, and OS which went the right direction, this tree kind of went no direction. Its a better version of what was there, but it has no focus, is random, and the abilities overwrite one another. It could be cool but it needs work. Fury is the key. Fury to turn your guard on. Fury to use capstone. Even Fury to gain seeker, since this is the only tree with +threat instead of +multiplier. Why is there no "spend 1 fury, gain 6 seeker for 10s" or something. Potential is there, but this version isnt it. Cheers.

[bbqzor]

Adding responses to responses while I was posting my first response... )

The internal cooldown will be gone. OP is updated.

This does help with the cores, certainly. Still have issues as described in the other post but at least some dps is there now.

We will look into this. If the capstone doesn't have an auto paralyze (works even if the save is made against death) then it is too weak.

Even with it, its too weak. So what if you can auto paralyze ~10 mobs per shrine. You then have almost no minutes of rage, which after 20 barbarian (a requirement for this, dont forget) means you have almost nothing. You can get the same effect by twisting in Daunting Presence and just hitting it every 2 min, hoping 1 mob out of a pack fails, and killing that. And counting twists here is completely reasonable... you cant get this until 20, meaning as soon as it arrives so does epic. Oh sure, with the capstone you can pick single mobs out, ok great. So can any class with power word stun, or monks, or bards, or any number of other things. Its just not a capstone regardless.

Rest of my thoughts on it are in the other post... I just wanted to comment that the paralyze portion doesnt suddenly make it capstone good. Theres a whole lot of ways to get that at 20+ which dont consume the classes core mechanic, the one the rest of its abilities rest on. I mean Extra Rage isnt even in this tree... you realize that ya?

Maybe swap Extra Rage to here, Hardy Rage to OS, and Extended Rage to FB. Make Extended Rage extend Frenzy. Then all three make sense with the trees they are in (less clicky maintenance for FB, more Con for OS, more Rages to use with Ravager). When U18 hit Barb, their abilities definitely got put in a blender as far as what went where. A little moving probably wouldnt go unwelcome... case in point here.

[Scrabbler]

Critical Rage: (2/2 AP) Increases your critical threat range by 1/2 when raging.

If it is intentional that the +2 critical threat bonus is not multiplied by Imp Crit, that should be mentioned in the description. Every other ability giving +X crit threat is multiplied by the feat.


PS. I'd really prefer if all +crit range bonuses are changed to not multiply with Imp Crit, and then the designers can manually double the value if they really want it to that powerful.

[InsanityIsYourFriend]

Action Boost: Melee Power: (1/1/1 AP) Activate this ability to receive a +[10/20/30] Action Boost bonus to Melee Power for 20 seconds. (Cooldown: 30 seconds)
~Sev

I know barbarians are supposed to be melee but I stress that if you make everything a melee power boost then archers will not only fall behind, they will die. I currently have a throwing barbarian, I throw everything from shuriken (not often) to throwing axes. Barbarians can and should be able to throw things or shoot things and still use there Damage Boost. Please make the melee power boost a Melee/Ranged Power Action Boost at 10/20/30%.

[Severlin]

I know barbarians are supposed to be melee but I stress that if you make everything a melee power boost then archers will not only fall behind, they will die. I currently have a throwing barbarian, I throw everything from shuriken (not often) to throwing axes. Barbarians can and should be able to throw things or shoot things and still use there Damage Boost. Please make the melee power boost a Melee/Ranged Power Action Boost at 10/20/30%.

I will bring this up with the team.

Sev~

[Scrabbler]

Demoralizing Success: (1 AP, Level 6) When you score a vorpal hit in melee, you inflict Crushing Despair on nearby enemies for 30 seconds on a failed DC 20 Will saving throw.

It seems like the save DC should add level/2 and Charisma mod. Just to follow the pattern of most saves, and to have a chance to keep working at high level.

Fear me!:
Aura of Fear:

With multiple Fear debuffs in the Ravager tree, it would be good if Fear immunity was removed from generic bosses. They only need immunity to Crowd-Control or Instakill style Fear effects (like the actual "Fear" spell), and not mere -2 penalties.

Dismember: (1/1/1 AP, Requires: Festering Wound) Cruel Cut increases Melee Power by 5 for 10 seconds. Cruel Cut additionalyl slows enemy movement speed, or slows attack speed, or deals 2d4/2d6/2d8 force damage, or deals 6d4/6d6/6d8 force damage. This force damage scales with 200% Melee Power.

It would be much nicer if Dismember required Cruel Cut instead of Festering Wound, and then Festering Wound was upgraded to be useful on its own. That is, it would be good if players felt Festering Wound was a fun option if they want healing reduction and poison damage, not just an obligation to get Meleepower from Dismember.

[Severlin]

We understand that there are encounters where ability damage is less useful but we didn't feel comfortable removing these abilities from the tree for players who combo them with items or other attribute abilities.

Sev~

[ddorimble]

We understand that there are encounters where ability damage is less useful but we didn't feel comfortable removing these abilities from the tree for players who combo them with items or other attribute abilities.

Big problem is they become literally worthless the second you hit 20. Remove Epic Ward ability drain resistance.

I DID combo class abilities like this to make an ability drain character...Wraith Form Swashbuckler with huge crit range WoP weapon...as much as 2d6+1 Con damage on a crit (14-20 I think?), so was capable of WAY more ability drain than these poor little 30 second clicky enhancements...it was LITERALLY unplayable that way the moment I hit 20 and stepped into an Epic quest.

Any ability drain enhancements should be dropped the moment you hit 20. If they are a requirement for something useful, they are wasted.

[bbqzor]

We understand that there are encounters where ability damage is less useful but we didn't feel comfortable removing these abilities from the tree for players who combo them with items or other attribute abilities.

If by encounters you mean "All Epic Content lv20+" then yes. Ill repeat my suggestion from before: make them ability PENALTIES not ability DAMAGE. Problem solved.

[bbqzor]

I will bring this up with the team.

(quoted in reference to barbarian throwing being an avenue to support)

You know, it never would have occurred to me to make that request (barb thrower stuff) but I gotta admit, I agree. Swash had a light "throwing splash" support. Barb should too.

Making the boost to melee and ranged is a good call. Its impossible to combo monk and barb, so the 10k stars concern is out. Yea, you could combo it with ranger and fury shot... but so what? An archery build with barb levels has its own trade offs, and frankly a "primal" style character using two primal classes in a primal tree should work together. Plus, whenever that ranged power pass happens, Im sure there will be ranged power around anyhow so heres just one place it wont have to be added at that time. No harm, no foul, just an early adopter at worst and leading to new themed builds at best.

Nice touch for an addition, I hope it makes it in.

[Scrabbler]

About ability damage:

Epic monsters should be changed to have a percentage change to ignore each instance of incoming ability damage, instead of extra-rapid healing.

We've also moved some of the bonus damage to be force since there was no clear explanation or understanding of what creatures were affected by alignment based damage.

Force damage has a thematic connection to arcane magic, so it's a poor fit for Barbarians (except OS). Instead of Force, it'd be nicer to have Bleed, Bane, Slashing, or just untyped.

Subsiding Fury: (1 AP, Level 18) When you use Barbarian Rage, you gain 3 stacks of Fury. Passive: You gain +100 hit points and +20 healing amplification.

Rather silly to get Subsiding Fury at level 18, when you've probably had Critical Fury since level 12, which makes all other sources of Fury irrelevant. (This gets back into why the whole rate of Fury expiring should be redone).

[bbqzor]

Force damage is a bad idea. You couldn't just make it "bane" damage?

Had time to read the thread and yes I agree. Bane damage is the way to go here, not force. Force has other interaction issues (mobs immune, mobs heal, etc) and makes little sense with ravager/barbarian. Leave Force in OS. Use Bane here. Works the same, wont ever heal mobs or deal with immunities, and fits the idea of the ravager causing more damage to anything at any time because ravagerness.

[Severlin]

Force damage has a thematic connection to arcane magic, so it's a poor fit for Barbarians (except OS). Instead of Force, it'd be nicer to have Bleed, Bane, Slashing, or just untyped.

Slashing would be reduced by certain abilities and thus be a nerf. We don't want to do untyped. The problem with Bane is the same problem as alignment damage; players don't understand what is affected by it. For players, bane refers to damage that affects a specific creature type so I don't know if we want to use it for more universal damage like this.

I would personally like to make it bleed damage but I'd have to look at Bleed damage to make sure that's an actual damage type and see what reduces it.

Rather silly to get Subsiding Fury at level 18, when you've probably had Critical Fury since level 12, which makes all other sources of Fury irrelevant. (This gets back into why the whole rate of Fury expiring should be redone).

We'll look into Fury again. Critical Fury got changed late in the process.

Sev~

[Qhualor]

core abilities

nothing negative to say

Tier 1

Do You Like Pain?- waste of AP. attacker losing AC wont matter, but you need it for I Like Pain.

Tier 3

Aura Of fear- -2 to mob stats is ok in heroics, but in epics its not noticeable.

Festering Wound- always wondered why you can decrease a mobs heal amp. I never noticed that they even did have any, but it looks like some of them could actually use heal amp or epic giants use something better than CLW on themselves.

Tier 5

Blood Strength- I need math on that. it looks like a must have enhancement if its at least decent.

overall, looks like Ravager is pretty stacked. really not much here I can rage against

[Qhualor]

Slashing would be reduced by certain abilities and thus be a nerf. We don't want to do untyped. The problem with Bane is the same problem as alignment damage; players don't understand what is affected by it. For players, bane refers to damage that affects a specific creature type so I don't know if we want to use it for more universal damage like this.

I would personally like to make it bleed damage but I'd have to look at Bleed damage to make sure that's an actual damage type and see what reduces it.

Sev~

sonic damage. its more thematical.

edit: bleed would probably be more fitting for a FB.