Barbarian - Ravager Changes

[axel15810]

I will follow up with a more detailed response later, but as for now I have to say I am disappointed with the direction you're taking this tree. That self healing in Tier 5 is way too much. Barbs should not be so self sufficient.

I liked the direction you took frenzied berserker by giving them a slow regen. But this healing on every hit and kill combined with the big healing amp is WAY too much. It departs too much from what barbs have been in the past...a class that gives up all self-healing for the best melee DPS.

Barbs should need outside healing as a drawback to having such good melee DPS. In fact, the self-healing this barbarian tree gets is way better than Warpriest which makes no sense. And it probably beats all others except radiant servant!

Barbs should survive through big HP, DR, PRR, dodge, ect. but NOT through self-healing. I'm all for giving them a slow regen so they don't need outside combat babysitting, but they should need healing assistance when in combat.

We already have a wealth of self-healing melee options. Barbs should be different - a class that will actually be worth healing. Please reconsider the self-healing in tier 5. If you want to let them heal a very small amount per hit as an alternative to frenzied berserker's slow regen, OK. But those values are too much. At the minimum take out the massive 1d20 heal on a kill.

[Qhualor]

I will follow up with a more detailed response later, but as for now I have to say I am disappointed with the direction you're taking this tree. That self healing in Tier 5 is way too much. Barbs should not be so self sufficient.

I liked the direction you took frenzied berserker by giving them a slow regen. But this healing on every hit and kill combined with the big healing amp is WAY too much. It departs too much from what barbs have been in the past...a class that gives up all self-healing for the best melee DPS.

Barbs should need outside healing as a drawback to having such good melee DPS. In fact, the self-healing this barbarian tree gets is way better than Warpriest which makes no sense. And it probably beats all others except radiant servant!

Barbs should survive through big HP, DR, PRR, dodge, ect. but NOT through self-healing. I'm all for giving them a slow regen so they don't need outside combat babysitting, but they should need healing assistance when in combat.

We already have a wealth of self-healing melee options. Barbs should be different - a class that will actually be worth healing. Please reconsider the self-healing in tier 5. If you want to let them heal a very small amount per hit as an alternative to frenzied berserker's slow regen, OK. But those values are too much. At the minimum take out the massive 1d20 heal on a kill.

I agree that there needs to be more focus on defense, but I wouldn't say barbs have a wealth of healing options. Currently its CSW pots and SF penalty pots. No exactly great options. They do need a boost in self healing to justify the front line damage they will be taking on. Relying on other party members to help out is not one that barbs should put much stock into. Barbs are still strapped to potions, unless you give up DPS to not rage or mix the class with like fvs.

[Rautis]

It departs too much from what barbs have been in the past...a class that gives up all self-healing for the best melee DPS.

Not all 3 trees can be the best melee DPS at the same time. Ravager isn't very big on DPS thanks to critical rage being +6 critical profile on picks and +4 critical profile on your typical greataxe. Changes to Fury mechanic could make this respectable DPS tree but currently any Barb can benefit from that +6 damage by picking level 1 core and using Cleaves. Only Barb tree with worse critical profile boost is Occult Slayer which doesn't need to rage to benefit from Oath of Retribution and gets Metalline on any weapon he uses. For example Paladin Holy Sword can be +10 critical profile on falchion and Bard Swashbuckling +6 Critical profile on rapier(highest bonus is like +10 on sickle). Both of these classes get very respectable self heal options.

Barbs should need outside healing as a drawback to having such good melee DPS. In fact, the self-healing this barbarian tree gets is way better than Warpriest which makes no sense. And it probably beats all others except radiant servant!

Warpriests are likely to also get healing spells and metas/spell power to make ED heals effective. Far superior burst healing potential.

[Scrabbler]

Not all 3 trees can be the best melee DPS at the same time.

But none of the 3 trees is the best melee DPS.

Ravager isn't very big on DPS thanks to critical rage being +6 critical profile on picks and +4 critical profile on your typical greataxe. Changes to Fury mechanic could make this respectable DPS tree but currently any Barb can benefit from that +6 damage by picking level 1 core and using Cleaves. Only Barb tree with worse critical profile boost is Occult Slayer

It looks like you're saying that Frenzied Berserker has better crits than Ravager. That isn't the case; Ravager is the best, followed by FB and then OS.

Ravager t5 adds +2 net crit range (+4 CP axe, +6 CP pick)
Frenzied Berserker t5 adds +1 crit mult on 19-20. (+2 CP)
Frenzied Berserker core18 adds +1 crit mult on 19-20. (+2 CP)
Occult Slayer t5 adds +1 crit mult on 19-20 (+2 CP)

Staying just within 1 tree, Ravager is either the best (pick) or tied for best (axe). But someone with Ravager t5 can also decide to get FB core18, reaching the best Barbarian criticals. None of them have CP that's impressive compared to a Paladin or Bard.

Another thing to remember when considering Ravager vs FB is weapon effects like Heartseeking, which add a lot of damage to every critical. For those weapons, +2 range is more valuable than +1 mult on 19-20, even if your weapon is only 2x.

[Rautis]

I also agree with suggestions to make Demoralizing Success have a scaling DC.

And I agree with doing something about Epic Ward stat damage regen and shield. Epic ward is one of the reasons I end up playing Heroic content very often while it is rather easy. All those abilities that simply stop doing anything in epics just make me sad. Builds become very one dimensional and that's boring. Ravager attacks work great in heroics.

Maybe I Hit Back could be changed to typical retributive effect that can proc on both hits and misses. Barbarians get Improved Uncanny Dodge which alone decreases effectiveness of this ability by 50% when on.

But none of the 3 trees is the best melee DPS.

I'm not sure. People might be underestimating the potential of Storm's Eye. +25 damage before any melee power or criticals can change lots of things if people learn to keep it active.

It looks like you're saying that Frenzied Berserker has better crits than Ravager. That isn't the case; Ravager is the best, followed by FB and then OS.

Afaik the tier 5 ability in FB has 2 tiers each giving x1 on 19-20 for a total of x2 on 19-20 from there. Then we add the level 18 core which doesn't say anything about being limited to 19-20 only meaning that FB can have up to 10 crit profile boost when using falchion. However, I haven't played a barb with full FB spec. But FB Crit profile boost is atleast +6.

But someone with Ravager t5 can also decide to get FB core18, reaching the best Barbarian criticals. None of them have CP that's impressive compared to a Paladin or Bard.

Another thing to remember when considering Ravager vs FB is weapon effects like Heartseeking, which add a lot of damage to every critical. For those weapons, +2 range is more valuable than +1 mult on 19-20, even if your weapon is only 2x.

This I agree with. Probably a Barb with FB capstone and Ravager T5 is the most Barb DPS. Not being able to invest much in Occult Slayer might be rather crippling though.

[Faltout]

I agree that there needs to be more focus on defense, but I wouldn't say barbs have a wealth of healing options. Currently its CSW pots and SF penalty pots. No exactly great options. They do need a boost in self healing to justify the front line damage they will be taking on. Relying on other party members to help out is not one that barbs should put much stock into. Barbs are still strapped to potions, unless you give up DPS to not rage or mix the class with like fvs.

They do need a boost of healing besides pots. But not so big a boost that they are better at self healing than every other class in the game except a healer specced cleric (which has high heals, but not as fast as the ravager).

Is this what you are suggesting for the barbs? 75 healing per second? And this can get much more higher with larger groups of mobs and higher healamp.
In fact:
2.5 (1d4) * 170/100 (melee power) = 4.25 per heal
4.25 * 400/100 (healamp) = 17 healed
17 * 20 (hits a second) = 340 healing per second
with 7 mobs that take cleaves, glancing blows at 1, 3 and 4 parts of the animation and speed boost from haste and haste boost. Also, imagine that this barb is jumping around avoiding a ton of hits from the monsters and is NOT raging so he can cast displacement clickies, scrolls, etc.

We are not suggesting the healing should go away, but there should be a limit to how many times it can activate like on the frenzied berserker.

[Scrabbler]

Then we add the level 18 core which doesn't say anything about being limited to 19-20 only meaning that FB can have up to 10 crit profile boost when using falchion.

No. The core18 Death Frenzy says "You increase your crit multiplier by an additional 1 when raging". That means it adds +1 to the +0 crit mult you get on rolls of 19-20 while using regular Frenzy in core6.

That text writeup does not make sense, but that's what it is. In an earlier version of the design, Frenzy gave +1 mult on 19-20 and then Death Frenzy boosted it by an additional +1. Later the designers removed the +1 mult from Frenzy and deleted it from the text, but didn't edit the Death Frenzy blurb to mention the 19-20 limitation.

The 19-20 limitation is intentional, to ensure that the critical bonus doesn't favor one kind of weapon over another (Rapier vs Battleaxe)

[FestusHood]

No. The core18 Death Frenzy says "You increase your crit multiplier by an additional 1 when raging". That means it adds +1 to the +0 crit mult you get on rolls of 19-20 while using regular Frenzy in core6.

That text writeup does not make sense, but that's what it is. In an earlier version of the design, Frenzy gave +1 mult on 19-20 and then Death Frenzy boosted it by an additional +1. Later the designers removed the +1 mult from Frenzy and deleted it from the text, but didn't edit the Death Frenzy blurb to mention the 19-20 limitation.

The 19-20 limitation is intentional, to ensure that the critical bonus doesn't favor one kind of weapon over another (Rapier vs Battleaxe)

It's unfortunate if, after letting swashbucklers and paladins have outrageous crit profiles, they decide to overly limit what barbs can get. I think this would be a good opportunity to actually let death frenzy add +1 multi on all crits. That makes it different than keen edge. Yes, it could be stacked with critical rage from ravager, but so what? That takes an enormous investment of ap, and it STILL wouldn't be as good as holy sword.

[droid327]

For many Ravagers, there's no Laughter without Slaughter.

This always bothered me. Its backwards. It should read "there's no Slaughter without Laughter". Laughter is a part of Slaughter, not vice versa.

[Scrabbler]

It's unfortunate if, after letting swashbucklers and paladins have outrageous crit profiles, they decide to overly limit what barbs can get. I think this would be a good opportunity to actually let death frenzy add +1 multi on all crits.

If they feel like Death Frenzy should give better crits (which I don't recommend), then they can simply change the +1 multiplier on 19-20 to a +2 or +3 multiplier on 19-20s. There's no need to add a bonus whose value depends on the existing critical range of your weapon; other classes already have that.

Instead of more crit, I'd like other ways to give Barbs more DPS, like +10 meleepower or +0.5 str mod, or various other things. (For one specific thing, I'd like +1 Meleepower at each class level from 6 to 20)

[Rautis]

No. The core18 Death Frenzy says "You increase your crit multiplier by an additional 1 when raging". That means it adds +1 to the +0 crit mult you get on rolls of 19-20 while using regular Frenzy in core6.

That text writeup does not make sense, but that's what it is. In an earlier version of the design, Frenzy gave +1 mult on 19-20 and then Death Frenzy boosted it by an additional +1. Later the designers removed the +1 mult from Frenzy and deleted it from the text, but didn't edit the Death Frenzy blurb to mention the 19-20 limitation.

The 19-20 limitation is intentional, to ensure that the critical bonus doesn't favor one kind of weapon over another (Rapier vs Battleaxe)

Yea, I remembered FB only boosting 19-20 range before Enhancement pass and kinda surprised to read that the description had no such limitation for level 18 core. So with 2 tiers of Focused Wrath and level 18 core you get +6 critical profile which still equals pick based Ravager. Except for all abilities that proc on any critical hits. However, FB will get +6 profile with any weapon but ravager gets only +2 with Falchion for example. So they both have their own upsides and downsides.

[Rautis]

Instead of more crit, I'd like other ways to give Barbs more DPS, like +10 meleepower or +0.5 str mod, or various other things. (For one specific thing, I'd like +1 Meleepower at each class level from 6 to 20)

I'd like it if means of gaining extra DPS was different for each Barb tree. 2x or 1.75x str modifier for twohanders instead of 1.5x might be workable in some tree.

Ravager could go far with just getting Fury caps increased in higher level cores and maybe getting things to spend excess fury. For example regain rage use for loss of x amount of fury if you so choose. Or get melee power action boost benefits for free for 20 secs for reaching x amount of fury. Or Bypass Cruel Cut/Slaughter/Hate cooldown for this much fury spent. It could become rather interesting minigame if fury regen rates are balanced about right.

[Qhualor]

They do need a boost of healing besides pots. But not so big a boost that they are better at self healing than every other class in the game except a healer specced cleric (which has high heals, but not as fast as the ravager).

Is this what you are suggesting for the barbs? 75 healing per second? And this can get much more higher with larger groups of mobs and higher healamp.
In fact:
2.5 (1d4) * 170/100 (melee power) = 4.25 per heal
4.25 * 400/100 (healamp) = 17 healed
17 * 20 (hits a second) = 340 healing per second
with 7 mobs that take cleaves, glancing blows at 1, 3 and 4 parts of the animation and speed boost from haste and haste boost. Also, imagine that this barb is jumping around avoiding a ton of hits from the monsters and is NOT raging so he can cast displacement clickies, scrolls, etc.

We are not suggesting the healing should go away, but there should be a limit to how many times it can activate like on the frenzied berserker.

math. all I see are numbers. honestly im an on hands kind of player. I do everything by actually testing to see what does and does not work, what is OP and what isn't.

what I do understand from that is 340 per second seems awful high.

[Scrabbler]

Request for the developers:

When doing these Barbarian trees, please ensure that Glancing Blows from THF weapons cause special effects according to the defined percentage chance for Glancing Blows to cause special effects. For example, if I have GTHF, Mad Munitions 3, and Blood Strength, then each of my Glancing Blows should have a 15% chance of healing me 1d4 points. Not a 100% chance, not 0%, not any other number but 15%.

If the designers decide that some special abilities (such as Pain Touch) should have a higher or lower chance to trigger on glancing blows, that should be mentioned in the specific description; don't make us guess.


As a related request, it would be nice to have Glancing Blow Special Rate included on the character sheet below Offhand Proc Rate and Doublestrike.

[Seikojin]

We understand that there are encounters where ability damage is less useful but we didn't feel comfortable removing these abilities from the tree for players who combo them with items or other attribute abilities.

Sev~

About ability damage:

Epic monsters should be changed to have a percentage change to ignore each instance of incoming ability damage, instead of extra-rapid healing.

Force damage has a thematic connection to arcane magic, so it's a poor fit for Barbarians (except OS). Instead of Force, it'd be nicer to have Bleed, Bane, Slashing, or just untyped.



Rather silly to get Subsiding Fury at level 18, when you've probably had Critical Fury since level 12, which makes all other sources of Fury irrelevant. (This gets back into why the whole rate of Fury expiring should be redone).

I like the ability damage as is for now, and think it would be nice if it got bigger as you leveled (additional -2/4/6 @ barb levels 5/10/15).

I like most of the changes, and think all the melee power stuff is nice. However it would be better if the melee power stuff was bumped up while raging. Like 100% melee power effects boosted to 150% melee power while raging.

[HatsuharuZ]

I will follow up with a more detailed response later, but as for now I have to say I am disappointed with the direction you're taking this tree. That self healing in Tier 5 is way too much. Barbs should not be so self sufficient.

I liked the direction you took frenzied berserker by giving them a slow regen. But this healing on every hit and kill combined with the big healing amp is WAY too much. It departs too much from what barbs have been in the past...a class that gives up all self-healing for the best melee DPS.

Barbs should need outside healing as a drawback to having such good melee DPS. In fact, the self-healing this barbarian tree gets is way better than Warpriest which makes no sense. And it probably beats all others except radiant servant!

Barbs should survive through big HP, DR, PRR, dodge, ect. but NOT through self-healing. I'm all for giving them a slow regen so they don't need outside combat babysitting, but they should need healing assistance when in combat.

We already have a wealth of self-healing melee options. Barbs should be different - a class that will actually be worth healing. Please reconsider the self-healing in tier 5. If you want to let them heal a very small amount per hit as an alternative to frenzied berserker's slow regen, OK. But those values are too much. At the minimum take out the massive 1d20 heal on a kill.

Personally, I think the barbarian's tendency to run in and kill things at close range makes it a perfect candidate for getting some self-healing.

Also, none of their enhancements let barbarians heal entire groups, so I think you're exaggerating a bit too much.

[Scrabbler]

Few small suggestions for Ravager:

• DC for Demoralizing Success adds Cha mod and level/2. Or just delete that enhancement.
  
  
• Make the Fury bonuses from Subsiding Fury and Laughter apply to all nearby allies, even if not Barbs, and let those sources increase Fury to above the normal cap (6). (This is to give some lower-value effects a bit of power, and also make the Barb a little more fun for his party)
  
  
• Change t5 Blood Strength to be a toggle. You can have either 1d4 healing on each hit, or a chance to apply a poison stack (like the Ninja Spy enhancement). (This is so the player faces a tradeoff about getting healing. If he feels the situation is safe enough that healing isn't needed, he can switch the toggle to get more DPS)
  
  
• Change t5 Blood Strength to scale with Barb class level. At level 5 it gives 1d1 healing, increasing to 1d2, 1d3, and 1d4 at levels 9, 14, and 19. (This is to make taking more than 5 Barb levels more valuable, and to help the healing provided scale more like other heal sources do, such as Cleric spells. Otherwise the effect can be especially overpowered at lower levels)

[Tilomere]

Critical Rage is confusing on live. On thrown attacks, it gives 4 crit profile after IC:Thrown. In melee, it provides 3 crit profile after IC:Bludgeoning (druid or unarmed) or 3 crit profile for all other melee weapons. I think bug fixing it to 4 crit all styles would be less confusing.

Critical Rage/Death frenzy combo is especially confusing, since Death Frenzy provides 19-20 1 crit profile, instead of 1 crit multiplier as stated and as working for SB or Holy Sword.

Also, since two out of the three trees deals with critical hits, but barbarians can't rage in precision stance, barbs have the lowest actual crit rates in the game for melees due to high average mob fortification. I think fort bypass should be added to barbs somehow. Barbs can already heal with ameliorating strikes, potions, and divine crusader heals twisted into any ED. The one thing they can't do well is crit. which is sort of odd on a class with crit in all three enhancement trees, and a crit based ED.

I like the healing and HAMP/HP in the Ravager tree. I think it will flow very will in my multiclass druid builds. Combined with PRR/MRR changes and Melee Power, I'm foreseeing Druid/barb/cleric in Divine Crusader to be very powerful.

[Qhualor]

Critical Rage is confusing on live. On thrown attacks, it gives 4 crit profile after IC:Thrown. In melee, it provides 3 crit profile after IC:Bludgeoning (druid or unarmed) or 3 crit profile for all other melee weapons. I think bug fixing it to 4 crit all styles would be less confusing.

Critical Rage/Death frenzy combo is especially confusing, since Death Frenzy provides 19-20 1 crit profile, instead of 1 crit multiplier as stated and as working for SB or Holy Sword.

Also, since two out of the three trees deals with critical hits, but barbarians can't rage in precision stance, barbs have the lowest actual crit rates in the game for melees due to high average mob fortification. I think fort bypass should be added to barbs somehow. Barbs can already heal with ameliorating strikes, potions, and divine crusader heals twisted into any ED. The one thing they can't do well is crit. which is sort of odd on a class with crit in all three enhancement trees, and a crit based ED.

I like the healing and HAMP/HP in the Ravager tree. I think it will flow very will in my multiclass druid builds. Combined with PRR/MRR changes and Melee Power, I'm foreseeing Druid/barb/cleric in Divine Crusader to be very powerful.

umm.. no. barbs should be critting, critting for high numbers and be critting a lot if you are built for dps. ive never had an issue with crits on my barbs.

[redoubt]

Assassinate: Stealth Melee Assassinate Attack: On Sneak Attack: Kills a living target instantly if the target fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + Rogue Level + Int Modifier). Even on a successful save, the target takes 10d6 additional sneak attack damage from this attack.

Visage of Terror: (1 AP, Level 20) Terrorize an enemy, killing them with fear if they fail a Will save vs 10 + Constitution modifier + half barbarian level. Enemies who make their saving throw are briefly paralyzed with fear instead. (Cost 1 Rage. Cooldown: 30 seconds. Passive: You gain +4 Constitution, +150 hit points and +40 healing amplification.

I have concerns over Visage of Terror. Maybe the devs could further explain how it will work.
I see the cooldown is longer than assassinate and Visage of Terror only gets half barb level which might be enough of a cut to level the DC with an INT rogue.
The cooldown might be enough to balance the fact that the barb does not have to sneak, can have agro, move at full speed, can stay in the fight... but I'm not sure.
Sounds like once every 30 seconds an insta-kill goes off with a rage boosted CON score.

I get that this is a capstone... but wow. Am I over estimating this? Someone else was commenting on the position of a rogue assassin being eliminated by proxy...

Anyway, I'd like to hear how the devs expect this to be used in practice.