Barbarian - Ravager Changes

[davmuzl]

so you are saying the devs developed 2 knockdown codes where 1 works as helpless and the other doesn't? and people thought they didn't know what they were doing.

If I understood it correctly they develop a new knockdown effect for every ability that has knockdown. Might be the reason why stuff like immunities work so inconsistent.

[DarkSable]

From the Lamania release notes:

Barbarian's Ravager enhancement tree has been adjusted. It now reads as follows:
Core abilities
Furious Rage: (1 AP, Level 1) When you are raging and miss your attack by rolling 1, you gain Fury for 6 seconds. Fury: +1 Rage bonus to attack and damage. This effect stacks up to 6 times, and one stack fades every 6 seconds.
Pain Touch: (1 AP, Level 3) Your melee attacks deal 1d6 extra damage. This damage scales with 100% Melee Power.
Demoralizing Success: (1 AP, Level 6) When you score a vorpal hit in melee, you inflict Crushing Despair on nearby enemies for 30 seconds on a failed DC 20 Will saving throw. You then inflict Vulnerable Will for 15 seconds, regardless of the Crushing Despair saving throw. Passive: You gain +30 hit points and +20 healing amplification.
Pain Touch: (1 AP, Level 12) Upgrades Pain Touch so your melee attacks deal 2d6 extra damage. This damage scales with 100% Melee Power. Passive: You gain +5 Magical Resistance Rating, +60 hit points and +20 healing amplification.
Subsiding Fury: (1 AP, Level 18) When you use Barbarian Rage, you gain 3 stacks of Fury. Passive: You gain +5 Magical Resistance Rating, +100 hit points and +20 healing amplification.
Visage of Terror: (1 AP, Level 20) Terrorize an enemy, killing them with fear if they fail a Will save vs 10 + Constitution modifier + half barbarian level. Enemies who make their saving throw are briefly paralyzed with fear instead. (Cost 1 Rage. Cooldown: 30 seconds. Passive: You gain +4 Constitution, +150 hit points and +40 healing amplification.

Tier One
Ritual Scarring: (1/1/1 AP) +[1/2/3] Intimidate, Haggle and Physical Resistance.
Hate: (1/1/1 AP) Melee Attack: Deals +(1/2/3)[W] damage and generate extra threat. (Cooldown: 15 seconds)
Do You Like Pain?: (1/1/1 AP) When you are hit: [20/40/60]% chance attacker loses 10 AC.
Barbarian Power Attack: (1/1/1 AP, Requires Power Attack) Your Power Attack feat does 1/2/3 additional point of bonus damage.
Hardy Rage: (1/1/1 AP) +[1/2/3] Constitution when raging.

Tier Two
Fear me!: (2 AP, Requires: Ritual Scarring) When you intimidate, affected enemies are Shaken for 6 seconds.
Mutilate: (1/1/1 AP, Requires Hate) Hate additionally deals 1d4/1d6/1d8 Charisma damage and 1d4/1d6/1d8 Evil damage. The evil damage scales with 200% Melee Power.
I Like Pain: (1/1/1 AP, Requires: Do You Like Pain?) When you are hit: Small chance to gain 50/100/150 Temporary HP. The gain scales with 100% melee power.
Cruel Cut: (1/1/1 AP) Melee Attack: Deals 1d6/2d6/3d6 extra constitution damage as long as you damage your target. (Cooldown: 30 seconds)
Action Boost: Melee Power: (1/1/1 AP) Activate this ability to receive a +[10/20/30] Action Boost bonus to Melee Power for 20 seconds. (Cooldown: 30 seconds)

Tier Three
Aura of Fear: (1/1/1 AP, Requires: Fear Me!) Nearby enemies receive a -2 penalty to Strength and Charisma.
Rank 2: Nearby enemies receive a -2 penalty to Strength, Charisma, Dexterity and Wisdom.
Rank 3: Nearby enemies receive a -2 penalty to all ability scores.

Slaughter: (1/1/1 AP) Melee Attack: Deals +(5/7.5/10)[W] damage. (Cooldown: 30 seconds)
Festering Wound: (1/1/1 AP Requires: Cruel Cut) Cruel Cut additionally inflicts 1/2/3 5-seconds stacks of 1d6 Poison damage every 2 seconds and the target loses -50% healing amplification for 5/10/15 seconds. Damage stacks fade one at a time.
Constitution/Strength: (2 AP) +1 Constitution or Strength

Tier Four
Laughter: (2 AP, Requires: Slaughter) For many Ravagers, there's no Laughter without Slaughter.
When Slaughter damages an enemy, you gain 3 Fury. When Slaughter scores a critical hit on an enemy, you gain an additional 3 Fury.
I Hit Back!: (1/1/1 AP, Requires: I Like Pain) When you are hit: 20% chance to deal 2d8/4d8/6d8 chaotic damage to attacker.
Dismember: (1/1/1 AP, Requires: Festering Wound) Cruel Cut additional slows enemy movement speed, or slows attack speed, or deals 2d4/2d6/2d8 chaotic damage, or deals 6d4/6d6/6d8 chaotic damage. This chaotic damage scales with 200% Melee Power.
Constitution/Strength: (2 AP) +1 Constitution or Strength

Tier Five
Blood Strength: (2 AP) Each time you land a hit there is a 10% chance you are healed for a number of points equal to HALF your Barbarian level. Each time you kill an opponent you are also healed for the same amount. This healing scales with 100% Melee Power.
Bully: (1/1/1 AP, Requires: I Hit back!) You deal +[5/10/15]% damage to helpless enemies. Requires: I Hit back!
Critical Fury: (2 AP) While raging, each hit also grants 1 stack of Fury.
Critical Rage: (2 AP) Increases your critical threat range by 1/2 when raging.

Let me pick out a few choice hits that really hurt:

1) Blood Strength. Seriously? Seriously. When the 10% chance on Master's Blitz has been complained about multiple times for being unreliable, you give us something like this? This is going to be a noob-trap, if it's implemented the way it stands right now. Even on a pure barbarian (which is a silly thing to have, really), yeah, the numbers you'll be healed for will be somewhat large, but they won't be coming in reliably, and you'll always be under the threat of rolling ones often enough to not get any healing when you need it. You just took Barb's ability to solo at all, and tossed it into the dust.

2) For the amount of AP you have to invest to get Bully, it's still an incredibly weak ability for a tier III... especially when you realize that comparable abilities are both lower tier AND on classes that have reliable ways of making a mob helpless. I would like to see the values doubled here, since it's an enhancement that's only useful when running with a group, and even then, only on trash mobs.

3) The hits to HP and healing amp hurt. When you consider that +20 healing amp is what you can get for 3AP as a human, the fact that a fair bit of it has been removed from the lower levels is going to make leveling a barb painful, and combined with the nerf to Blood Strength, seriously hurts our survivability... if that came with the benefit of a lot more DPS, then it would perhaps be okay (although not fitting to the tree), but as far as I can tell, it wasn't very much. Especially compared to some of the other trees, Ravager is looking pretty weak.

[Severlin]

Thanks for the feedback. Critical Fury will probably be changing completely since maintaining stacks of Fury isn't an issue. We will also be testing a small bump to the chance to proc for Blood Strength.

Sev~

[Qhualor]

... We will also be testing a small bump to the chance to proc for Blood Strength.

Sev~

It needs it especially if you make it so barbs go back to light/medium armor.

If you want I can perform a short test myself tonight on Lama on my Ravager with a video or better screenshot of how often it procs. My little screenshot I don't think was good enough. I think I figured out how to post a video.

[Qhualor]

http://youtu.be/-Wddy2s3p5U

take what you will from this video. I wasn't concentrating on playing well. I just wanted to show more of the healing proc chances. the video is only 10 minutes and didn't make it to the shrine before I ran out of time. the gear is dojo stuff and not what I have for this character mostly on Live because same situation as my other characters, no TR cache. if you notice too I only have 100% fort which was reduced to 90% so that explains some of the big damage hits I was taking. didn't feel like spending a long time getting SF favor, but I wish I had after this run chugging all those CSW pots. pretty decent healing from CSW pots though. the 5 points is from Greater Regeneration. also, what is D N T NotForPlayers?

edit: after watching the video, you notice the new Monster Champion including the shadow from the Eidolons necklace.

[Scrabbler]

We will also be testing a small bump to the chance to proc for Blood Strength.

Will Blood Strength have a chance to proc on kills?

[Failedlegend]

Will Blood Strength have a chance to proc on kills?

It already says it does, that said it needs to be changed to when someone within 30ft of you dies as forcing a function to apply on "last hit" is a terrible idea...I mean the devs already know it they JUST changed what was it master's blitz because of it causing issues w/ grouping and CMIIW but isn't this update to make Barbs more welcome in groups?

[Scrabbler]

It already says it does

Yes, but Blood Strength does not actually have a chance to proc on kills. So any playtesting people do with Lamannia really doesn't show the power of the design.

[depositbox]

http://youtu.be/-Wddy2s3p5U

take what you will from this video. I wasn't concentrating on playing well. I just wanted to show more of the healing proc chances. the video is only 10 minutes and didn't make it to the shrine before I ran out of time. the gear is dojo stuff .

If youre on lam later I'll hop on and show you how it's done. With a first life dojo toon. Pike if you wish. This was a cry for help if I've ever seen one and I cant just sit back and allow my fellow ddo'ers to be badsies. I got you!! We can go over twists, combat techniques, gear set up, character building. Whole 9. Dont fret bud, we, the fine community, will get you up to par.

[FestusHood]

If youre on lam later I'll hop on and show you how it's done. With a first life dojo toon. Pike if you wish. This was a cry for help if I've ever seen one and I cant just sit back and allow my fellow ddo'ers to be badsies. I got you!! We can go over twists, combat techniques, gear set up, character building. Whole 9. Dont fret bud, we, the fine community, will get you up to par.

How thoughtful of you!

[ToastyFred]

http://youtu.be/-Wddy2s3p5U

take what you will from this video. I wasn't concentrating on playing well. I just wanted to show more of the healing proc chances. the video is only 10 minutes and didn't make it to the shrine before I ran out of time. the gear is dojo stuff and not what I have for this character mostly on Live because same situation as my other characters, no TR cache. if you notice too I only have 100% fort which was reduced to 90% so that explains some of the big damage hits I was taking. didn't feel like spending a long time getting SF favor, but I wish I had after this run chugging all those CSW pots. pretty decent healing from CSW pots though. the 5 points is from Greater Regeneration. also, what is D N T NotForPlayers?

edit: after watching the video, you notice the new Monster Champion including the shadow from the Eidolons necklace.

Wow! Awesome viddy mate! Reminds of the dunny brush gambit!

[IIVIIV]

http://youtu.be/-Wddy2s3p5U

take what you will from this video. I wasn't concentrating on playing well. I just wanted to show more of the healing proc chances. the video is only 10 minutes and didn't make it to the shrine before I ran out of time. the gear is dojo stuff and not what I have for this character mostly on Live because same situation as my other characters, no TR cache. if you notice too I only have 100% fort which was reduced to 90% so that explains some of the big damage hits I was taking. didn't feel like spending a long time getting SF favor, but I wish I had after this run chugging all those CSW pots. pretty decent healing from CSW pots though. the 5 points is from Greater Regeneration. also, what is D N T NotForPlayers?

edit: after watching the video, you notice the new Monster Champion including the shadow from the Eidolons necklace.

This is just..... sad

[Qhualor]

This is just..... sad

I know right? Sev said yesterday that the healing on kill isn't working. too bad I was the only one to prove this with a video.

[axel15810]

From the Lamania release notes:

Let me pick out a few choice hits that really hurt:

1) Blood Strength. Seriously? Seriously. When the 10% chance on Master's Blitz has been complained about multiple times for being unreliable, you give us something like this? This is going to be a noob-trap, if it's implemented the way it stands right now. Even on a pure barbarian (which is a silly thing to have, really), yeah, the numbers you'll be healed for will be somewhat large, but they won't be coming in reliably, and you'll always be under the threat of rolling ones often enough to not get any healing when you need it. You just took Barb's ability to solo at all, and tossed it into the dust.

Severlin, please read and consider this point. Many others have pointed out the unreliability aspect of this ability in this thread and I've yet to see a developer post explaining why you feel introducing so much luck into the ability is the right approach. Could you please explain?

You just can't base an ability on such a low proc chance and expect it to be very useful. The unreliability is a huge weakness - it turns the ability into fluff healing only, nothing the barb can use on a regular basis to dependably stay alive.

This same design is what many people dislike about the new master's blitz. If this healing ability isn't dependable for barbs, it's usefulness is vastly diminished. You have to look past the average healing over time and look at the variance involved in such a low proc chance. Using a percentage proc chance to balance an ability looks nice on paper - but using these % proc chances to balance abilities is misleading because those calculations often don't accurately reflect the huge impact luck has when the game is actually played in real time.

Instead of -

Blood Strength: (2 AP) Each time you land a hit there is a 10% chance you are healed for a number of points equal to HALF your Barbarian level. Each time you kill an opponent you are also healed for the same amount. This healing scales with 100% Melee Power.

Please consider going with -

Blood Strength: (2 AP) Each time you land a hit you are healed for (10%*HALF your Barbarian level). Each time you kill an opponent you are also healed for an amount equal to HALF your barbarian level. This healing scales with 100% Melee Power.

This suggestion will give barbs the exact same amount of healing over time but it does away with the variance that if not addressed will make the ability undependable.

In summary, it will give pure 20 barbs (ignoring melee power) 1 HP per hit guaranteed, instead of a 10% chance to get 10HP on each individual hit.

Exact same amount of healing in the long run but with zero luck involved.

[gwonbush]

Severlin, please read and consider this point. Many others have pointed out the unreliability aspect of this ability in this thread and I've yet to see a developer post explaining why you feel introducing so much luck into the ability is the right approach. Could you please explain?

You just can't base an ability on such a low proc chance and expect it to be very useful. The unreliability is a huge weakness - it turns the ability into fluff healing only, nothing the barb can use on a regular basis to dependably stay alive.

This same design is what many people dislike about the new master's blitz. If this healing ability isn't dependable for barbs, it's usefulness is vastly diminished. You have to look past the average healing over time and look at the variance involved in such a low proc chance. Using a percentage proc chance to balance an ability looks nice on paper - but using these % proc chances to balance abilities is misleading because those calculations often don't accurately reflect the huge impact luck has when the game is actually played in real time.

Instead of -

Blood Strength: (2 AP) Each time you land a hit there is a 10% chance you are healed for a number of points equal to HALF your Barbarian level. Each time you kill an opponent you are also healed for the same amount. This healing scales with 100% Melee Power.

Please consider going with -

Blood Strength: (2 AP) Each time you land a hit you are healed for (10%*HALF your Barbarian level). Each time you kill an opponent you are also healed for an amount equal to HALF your barbarian level. This healing scales with 100% Melee Power.

This suggestion will give barbs the exact same amount of healing over time but it does away with the variance that if not addressed will make the ability undependable.

In summary, it will give pure 20 barbs (ignoring melee power) 1 HP per hit guaranteed, instead of a 10% chance to get 10HP on each individual hit.

Exact same amount of healing in the long run but with zero luck involved.

Your version provides less healing than the current version, despite removing all luck. The reason for this is simple: DDO tends to round down fractions (see:Healing Amp and Vampirism). Let's say you are a 20 Barb with 80 MP and 100 Hmp (2x healing). Under the current version, you have a 10% chance to get 36 hp on hit for an average of 3.6 HP/hit. Meanwhile, your version would round down to 3 HP/Hit (a loss of 16% healing).

Depending on your Barb level, MP and Hamp values, the difference can get even greater. Let's say you are an 18 Barb/2 whatever with 26 MP (in other words, not capped or in capped destiny) and 60 hamp. Current version gives you a 10% chance for 18.144 hp (rounded down to 18), for 1.8 HP/hit on average. Your version would only give 1 HP a hit, losing 44% of the healing of the more random version.

[axel15810]

Your version provides less healing than the current version, despite removing all luck. The reason for this is simple: DDO tends to round down fractions (see:Healing Amp and Vampirism). Let's say you are a 20 Barb with 80 MP and 100 Hmp (2x healing). Under the current version, you have a 10% chance to get 36 hp on hit for an average of 3.6 HP/hit. Meanwhile, your version would round down to 3 HP/Hit (a loss of 16% healing).

Depending on your Barb level, MP and Hamp values, the difference can get even greater. Let's say you are an 18 Barb/2 whatever with 26 MP (in other words, not capped or in capped destiny) and 60 hamp. Current version gives you a 10% chance for 18.144 hp (rounded down to 18), for 1.8 HP/hit on average. Your version would only give 1 HP a hit, losing 44% of the healing of the more random version.

My main point I'm trying to make is we need to remove the luck portion out of the ability.

As far as determining the right amount of healing per hit to make it balanced, that's a different issue. If they feel the rounding factor you mentioned brings the ability out of balance they can adjust the percentage up to whatever value they feel is right.

Again what I'm trying to say in my posts are we need to reduce the ability's variance so it is dependable. I'm not trying to argue what HP per hit value is the most optimal for balance.

[shinsirhc]

Constitution/Strength: (2 AP) +1 Constitution or Strength


The Strength enhancement in ravager doesn't work.

[XxJFGxX]

Well here it is long pass the Barbarian re-vamp and overall it is alot better than what it was. But seems to me that Ravager got the short end of the stick. Reason why? Well most of the enhancements in Ravager don't hold up well in epics. They offer little to no help given how mobs in epics especially EE are. The only good high tier enhancements from there is Critical Rage and Blood Strength but it takes alot of AP investment to get those.

Another thing is that the cores of the Ravager tree does not have a passive bonus other than heal amp and hp that Frenzied Berserker and Occult Slayer also have but they have other passives in their respected cores such as FB has +25 Melee power and +10 PRR, while OC has +25 MRR in its core. Also Ravager does not have a critical multiplier on a 19-20 unlike the other cores do.

Ex.: Frenzied Berserker has a +3 on a 19-20 while raging.
Occult Slayer has a +1 on a 19-20 while raging and it's Seeker's Strike attack has +1 threat range and multiplier.

Ravager should be re-done and made into a Tank type of prestige. Why? Because the Ravager tree does have enhancements that suites a Tank it can be improved upon to make it better, more enjoyable to play and to give it a primary role.

Here is my revision:

CORE 0: Barb 1
Furious Rage: When you are raging and miss your attack by rolling 1, you gain Fury for six seconds.
Fury: +1 Rage bonus to attack and damage. This effect stacks and one stack fades every six seconds.


CORE 1: Barb 3
Pain Touch: Your melee attacks deal 1d6 extra damage. This damage scales with 100% Melee Power. Passive: +10 Healing Amplification

CORE 2: Barb 6
Demoralizing Success: Passive: You gain +30 hit points and +10 healing amplification and +5 PRR. When you score a vorpal hit in melee, you inflict Crushing Despair on nearby enemies for 30 seconds on a failed DC 20 Will saving throw. You then inflict Vulnerable Will for 15 seconds, regardless of the Crushing Despair saving throw.

CORE 3: Barb 12
Pain Touch: Upgrades Pain Touch so your melee attacks deal 2d6 extra damage. This damage scales with 100% Melee Power. Passive: You gain +60 hitpoints and +20 healing amplification and +10 melee power

CORE 4: Barb 18
Subsiding Fury: When you use Barbarian Rage, you gain +5% Doublestrike for 15 seconds. Passive: You gain +100 hitpoints and +20 healing amplification and +10 PRR


CORE 5: Barb 20
Visage of Terror: Terrorize up to six enemies, killing them with fear if they fail a Will save vs 10 + Constitution modifier or Strength modifier (whichever is higher) + half barbarian level. Enemies who make their saving throw are feared for six seconds instead. Doesn't affect bosses. (Cooldown: 2 Minutes)

Passive:

+4 Constitution
+150 hitpoints
+40 healing amplification
+10 PRR


TIER 1:
Ritual Scarring: +[5%/10%/15%] to AC, +[100%/+150%/+200%] Threat generation and +[2%/3%/5%] Physical Resistance.

Hate: Melee Attack: Deals +(1/1.5/2)[W] damage and generate +50%/+100%/+150% more threat for 15 seconds.. (Cooldown: 15 seconds)

Do You Like Pain?: When you are hit: [20/40/60]% chance attacker loses 10 AC and -15% Fortification..

Barbarian Power Attack: Your Power Attack feat does 1/2/3 additional point of bonus damage.

Hardy Rage: +[1/2/3] Constitution when raging.



TIER 2:
Fear me!: When you use Fear Me!, affected enemies become despaired on a fail WILL DC Barbarian level + Half Intimidate for 6 seconds. Enemies that make the save are shakened for 6 seconds.

Mutilate: Hate additionally deals 1d4/1d6/1d8 Charisma damage and 2d6/4d6/6d6 Bane damage. The bane damage scales with 200% Melee Power

I Like Pain: When you are hit: Small chance to gain 50/100/150 Temporary HP. Every epic level increases the Temporary HP by an additional 15. This damage scales with 100% Melee Power.

Cruel Cut: Melee Attack: Melee attack +[1w]/+[2w]/+[3w] that deals 1d6/2d6/3d6 extra constitution damage as long as you damage your target. (15 second cooldown)

Action Boost: Melee Power: Activate this ability to receive a +[10/20/30] Action Boost bonus to Melee Power for 20 seconds. (Cooldown: 30 seconds)



TIER 3:
Aura of Fear: Nearby enemies receive a -2 penalty to Strength and Charisma.

Rank 2: Nearby enemies receive a -2 penalty to Strength, Charisma, Dexterity and Wisdom.
Rank 3: Nearby enemies receive a -2 penalty to all ability scores.


Slaughter: Melee Attack: Deals +(5/7.5/10)[W] damage. (Cooldown: 20 seconds)

Festering Wound: Cruel Cut additionally inflicts 1/2/3 5-seconds stacks of 1d6 Poison damage every 2 seconds and that monster's positive energy healing is reduced by 50% for 5/10/15 seconds. Damage stacks fade one at a time.

Constitution or Strength



TIER 4:
Laughter: When Slaughter damages an enemy, you gain +5% doublestrike. When Slaughter scores a critical hit on an enemy , you gain an additional +5% doublestrike (for a total of +10% doublestrike) and gain 10 Melee Power for 15 seconds.
For many Ravagers, there's no Laughter without Slaughter.

I Hit Back!: When you are hit: 20% chance to deal 2d8/4d8/6d8 bane damage to attacker and knocks the attacker down (No save). This damage scales with 200% Melee Power.

Dismember: Cruel Cut increases Melee Power by 5 for 12 seconds and deals 2d4/2d6/2d8 bane damage on hit and an additional 6d8/6d10/6d12 bane damage on critical hit. Cruel Cut additionally slows enemy movement speed, or slows attack speed. This bane damage scales with 200% Melee Power.

Constitution or Strength



TIER 5:
Blood Strength: Each time you land a hit there is a 15% chance you heal positive damage equal to half your Barbarian level. Each time you kill an opponent you are healed for 20 hit points. This healing scales with 100% Melee Power.

Also whenever you kill an enemy while under Barbarian Rage, you gain the following benefits for 30 seconds:
+100%% Threat generation increase
+10% Melee attack speed
+5% Rage bonus to weapon damage.


Bully: You deal +[10/15/20]% damage to helpless enemies.

Uncanny Balance: You are immune to most knockdowns and slippery surfaces.

Critical Rage: While under Barbarian Rage you increase your critical threat range by +1/ +2 and +1 critical damage multiplier on a roll of 19 - 20.