Barbarian - Occult Slayer Changes

[CaptainSpacePony]

To a certain extent it almost sounds like the proposed Barbarian core abilities are too good and therefore everyone will need to take them over other abilities. It's been more common feedback, generally, that core abilities should be stronger. Have we gone too far?

I choose to NOT answer your valid and well reasoned question and instead say the new cores are too boring because the changes all look the same. I want them to feel different. Prestige trees are flavor as well as power. If HP and HAmp are all you can do, at least vary the numbers from tree to tree.

[FranOhmsford]

It's unlocks the entire tree, and the +5 attack is meaningful effect for a single AP, though we realize many players don't highly value to-hit. Being an activated ability lets you see how much Weapon Bond you have for all the other abilities in the tree, in a place that doesn't move (wherever on your hotbars you decide to put it, even if you decide to never push it). This is different from making it an effect, which is harder to track.

The issue I have is that some core 1 abilities are light years ahead of others:

Great
Swashbuckler - Confidence
Spellsinger
Warchanter - Skaldic Rage
Radiant Servant - Healing Domain
Angel of Vengeance - Font of Power
Harper - Agent of Good
Ninja Spy - Basic Ninja Training
Shintao - Bastion of Purity
KotC - Slayer of Evil
Sacred Defender - Holy Bastion
Deepwood Sniper - Far Shot
Savant
Archmage - Specialization
Eldritch Knight - Eldritch Strike

Good
Arconotechnician
Occult Slayer - Weapon Bond
Season's Herald - Seasoned
Stalwart Defender - Toughness
Vanguard - To the Fore
Tempest - Shield of Whirling Steel
Acrobat - Staff Control
Pale Master - Dark Reaping

OK
Ravager - Furious Rage {Fury}
Divine Disciple - Emissary
Nature's Warrior
Kensei - Focus
Assassin - Knife in the Darkness
Mechanic - Arbalester - Great Xbows SUCK!

Bad
Battle Engineer - +8 SPw at Rune Arm Tier 1
Warpriest - Smite Foe
Arcane Archer

Useless
Frenzied Berserker - Die Hard
Henshin Mystic - Riddle of Fire {WT?}

Weapon Bond itself is a good ability but that little extra is needed to make it great and an activated +5 to hit doesn't do it!


You'll notice that I've placed similar abilities in different tiers - That's because I'm looking at the whole not just the parts.
Smite Foe for instance does give +5 fire and light spw BUT so does every other core in that tree - The Smite itself however is just plain bad! {For goodness sake - Make it a CLEAVE!}
Sacred Defender has that little extra placing it in the "Great" category while Stalwart Toughness only manages "Good"


Battle Engineer, AA, Henshin and FB Really need boosting!

[Qhualor]

You gain benefit from spending in multiple barbarian trees. This is also true for every other class, of course. You aren't required to, and you also gain benefit from spending in one barbarian tree, one cleric tree, and one bard tree -- the benefits are different, but in each case spending more AP gives more benefit.

We don't expect it to be a requirement that all barbarians only spend on barbarian trees, but if a major goal is very high healing amplification you are likely to do this. This is not necessarily going to be the most common barbarian build for multiclass barbarians (or heavily racial Barbarians like CON-dwarves, or some kind of INT based Harper barbarian, or other "non-standard builds").

We don't feel that the additional bonuses to existing abilities suddenly makes those abilities requirements for all barbarians. We're willing to be convinced that may happen unintentionally, but it's not an explicit design goal.

To a certain extent it almost sounds like the proposed Barbarian core abilities are too good and therefore everyone will need to take them over other abilities. It's been more common feedback, generally, that core abilities should be stronger. Have we gone too far?

Its not the way I envisioned for barbarian self sufficiency changes, but no its not too far. As I just said above, trying to boost your heal amp by doubling up on the cores will result in a liitle more survivability at a cost to DPS. Let's wait until Lama to see just how powerful it really will be compared to DPS.

[FranOhmsford]

You gain benefit from spending in multiple barbarian trees. This is also true for every other class, of course. You aren't required to, and you also gain benefit from spending in one barbarian tree, one cleric tree, and one bard tree -- the benefits are different, but in each case spending more AP gives more benefit.

But I keep saying - This is WRONG on oh so many levels!

If I want to play an Occult Slayer I should NOT be forced into placing points into Ravager or Frenzied Berserker!
If I want to play a Stalwart Defender then the only reason I should be looking at Kensei is for FLAVOUR!

The Opposites also apply!

Of course I MAY want to play a more balanced character taking points from all 3 available class trees BUT that should be MY choice!


Heal amp is the new HP - Once you're in Epic Levels you're literally expected to have a certain amount of amp {no matter what!}
By placing stackable Heal amp in all 3 Barbarian trees you ARE literally forcing players into investing in ALL 3 trees!

You're pandering to the Elite!

We don't expect it to be a requirement that all barbarians only spend on barbarian trees, but if a major goal is very high healing amplification you are likely to do this. This is not necessarily going to be the most common barbarian build for multiclass barbarians (or heavily racial Barbarians like CON-dwarves, or some kind of INT based Harper barbarian, or other "non-standard builds").

Int based Barbarian? You're joking right? That's an obvious "FLAVOUR" Build that has no right being brought up in a conversation about possible OPness!

Con Dwarves will absolutely require as much Heal amp as possible because of their HP pools!

Multiclass is Multiclass - It CANNOT be brought up as a defense for issues that mainly affect Pure Builds! - In fact the Opposite should apply more often!

We don't feel that the additional bonuses to existing abilities suddenly makes those abilities requirements for all barbarians. We're willing to be convinced that may happen unintentionally, but it's not an explicit design goal.

You're forgetting that certain abilities are literally must haves in this game - Heal amp {when available} is one of those abilities!

To a certain extent it almost sounds like the proposed Barbarian core abilities are too good and therefore everyone will need to take them over other abilities. It's been more common feedback, generally, that core abilities should be stronger. Have we gone too far?

ANY ability could be "too good" in enough quantity!
Allowing the Heal amp in all 3 trees to stack = Simply ridiculous!

All you need to do IF you're adamant about sticking with Heal amp being available in all 3 trees is to mark that ability as Exclusive {you have a term for this which you've used with abilities elsewhere!}.

However - I personally would much prefer you:
- stick with Heal amp in OS
- place DR in Ravager {Doesn't feel wounds like other people do}
- place DPS Boosts in FB

[Thar]

You gain benefit from spending in multiple barbarian trees. This is also true for every other class, of course. You aren't required to, and you also gain benefit from spending in one barbarian tree, one cleric tree, and one bard tree -- the benefits are different, but in each case spending more AP gives more benefit.

We don't expect it to be a requirement that all barbarians only spend on barbarian trees, but if a major goal is very high healing amplification you are likely to do this. This is not necessarily going to be the most common barbarian build for multiclass barbarians (or heavily racial Barbarians like CON-dwarves, or some kind of INT based Harper barbarian, or other "non-standard builds").

We don't feel that the additional bonuses to existing abilities suddenly makes those abilities requirements for all barbarians. We're willing to be convinced that may happen unintentionally, but it's not an explicit design goal.

To a certain extent it almost sounds like the proposed Barbarian core abilities are too good and therefore everyone will need to take them over other abilities. It's been more common feedback, generally, that core abilities should be stronger. Have we gone too far?

350 hp and 100% heal amp is not going to change that Barbs take a beating in end game with less ac/prr than fighters, less feats and can't heal when raged. The defining moment will be to see if the healing in the tree is enough to keep them up when getting beat on. not up forever but up enough to be viable in a fight.

350 hp takes 2 swings in EE. 100% amp for the 2d6 regen tier 5 in one tree or 1d4/1d20 in another may not be enough. This one looks good for 2hp per stack but how fast can you get the stack back up in a fight? a one shot heal isn't going ot be super useful either.

pitch for more DR/prr additions somehow in there.

[FranOhmsford]

Its not the way I envisioned for barbarian self sufficiency changes, but no its not too far. As I just said above, trying to boost your heal amp by doubling up on the cores will result in a liitle more survivability at a cost to DPS. Let's wait until Lama to see just how powerful it really will be compared to DPS.

Barbs are already going to take Core 1 in all 3 trees!

Most are going to take at least Core 2 in Ravager!

So FBs and OS are going to have 3 extra Boosts to Heal amp no matter what!

Maybe - Buff the higher tiers and remove the H-Amp from the first two Cores {It's not like Lvl 1-6 Characters even need H-Amp!}.

[Severlin]

Barbs are already going to take Core 1 in all 3 trees!

Most are going to take at least Core 2 in Ravager!

So FBs and OS are going to have 3 extra Boosts to Heal amp no matter what!

Maybe - Buff the higher tiers and remove the H-Amp from the first two Cores {It's not like Lvl 1-6 Characters even need H-Amp!}.

There are no hit point or healing buffs in the first core of any tree so I am not sure what you mean. Even level 3 and 6 cores have smaller healing amplification bonuses. The larger healing amplification bonuses (+20) are in the higher cores.

Sev~

[FranOhmsford]

There are no hit point or healing buffs in the first core of any tree so I am not sure what you mean. Even level 3 and 6 cores have smaller healing amplification bonuses. The larger healing amplification bonuses (+20) are in the higher cores.

Sev~

I apologise as I got blinded by all the HP/H-Amp boosts!

I still say that maybe the 10 H-Amp in Core 2 could be added to Core 3 so we still get the same amount of H-Amp...It's just placed higher up the tree to avoid doubling up.


As for the HP - My Barbs already have pretty similar HP totals when Raged to my Equal level Stalwarts in Stance so I'm not sure another 400 is really necessary.
Maybe place some AC in the Cores instead of some of those HPs.

[Vargouille]

If I want to play an Occult Slayer I should NOT be forced into placing points into Ravager or Frenzied Berserker
If I want to play a Stalwart Defender then the only reason I should be looking at Kensei is for FLAVOUR

(...)

You're forgetting that certain abilities are literally must haves in this game - Heal amp {when available} is one of those abilities

You don't have to put points into Ravager just because you have points in Occult Slayer. So far there don't seem to be any reasons give why this would be the case. There's little synergy between those core abilities.

If the argument is rather than the abilities are so good they are "required", that's a different argument. Are all Barbarians required to take as many Cores as possible, because maximizing Healing Amp is required beyond all other considerations? We don't think so. That would imply all other cores from other trees are inferior to Barbarian, and enhancements would provide little reason to multiclass Barbarians, which would be concerning.

[Violith]

-Snip-

Allowing the Heal amp in all 3 trees to stack = Simply ridiculous!
You're forgetting that certain abilities are literally must haves in this game - Heal amp {when available} is one of those abilities!

The whole thing about spending ALL AP in a single tree is merely an opinion of yours, I for one would hate to be forced into spending only on one tree. Your more then welcome to spend the majority of points into a single tree, but to have a tree capable of supporting 70+ AP just seems wrong to me as there are other low hanging fruit from other trees, that complement all 3 trees as well as the class as a whole. The trees were designed for that, thats why there is no 'general' class tree.

Hamp isnt really needed that much, and definately nto a 'must have'. Its certainly a desirable addition, but ultimately doesnt break a build if it doesnt have it. Out of about 10 characters, only two have heal amp enhancements currently, and only the one has invested in all out gear for it as well. and out of those other 8, I'd say half arent epic and the ones that are have been able to complete even EE quests, with no heal amp, and its certainly available to anyone.

[Scrabbler]

If the argument is rather than the abilities are so good they are "required", that's a different argument. Are all Barbarians required to take as many Cores as possible, because maximizing Healing Amp is required beyond all other considerations? We don't think so.

That's not what the problem is with new Barbarian cores. The problems are:

• Cores are too similar across trees: lotsa hp + healing amp.
• Cores are too similar within trees: lotsa hp + healing amp.
• For the majority of cores, the hp + healing amp is more valuable than anything distinctive about it.

Core enhancements should about what is special to that prestige concept, not mostly used for something shared by every kind of Barbarian. The incentive to train cores from Occult Slayer should be that I want to harm spellcasters or resist their attacks, not to get hp and healing amp for general-purpose combat.

[Trillea]

Hamp isnt really needed that much, and definately nto a 'must have'.

When the ONLY viable self-healing is a d4 on hit with a d20 on kill (viable meaning not giving ridiculous stat penalties) then yes, healing amp is a must-have when you have thousands of HP. Pretty much at all other costs.

[Wizza]

You gain benefit from spending in multiple barbarian trees. This is also true for every other class, of course. You aren't required to, and you also gain benefit from spending in one barbarian tree, one cleric tree, and one bard tree -- the benefits are different, but in each case spending more AP gives more benefit.

We don't expect it to be a requirement that all barbarians only spend on barbarian trees, but if a major goal is very high healing amplification you are likely to do this. This is not necessarily going to be the most common barbarian build for multiclass barbarians (or heavily racial Barbarians like CON-dwarves, or some kind of INT based Harper barbarian, or other "non-standard builds").

We don't feel that the additional bonuses to existing abilities suddenly makes those abilities requirements for all barbarians. We're willing to be convinced that may happen unintentionally, but it's not an explicit design goal.

To a certain extent it almost sounds like the proposed Barbarian core abilities are too good and therefore everyone will need to take them over other abilities. It's been more common feedback, generally, that core abilities should be stronger. Have we gone too far?

Strong? Those cores are flat out boring and lazy. Three different trees with THE SAME EXACT PASSIVE BONUSES. Strong, lol.

[FranOhmsford]

You don't have to put points into Ravager just because you have points in Occult Slayer. So far there don't seem to be any reasons give why this would be the case. There's little synergy between those core abilities.

If the argument is rather than the abilities are so good they are "required", that's a different argument. Are all Barbarians required to take as many Cores as possible, because maximizing Healing Amp is required beyond all other considerations? We don't think so. That would imply all other cores from other trees are inferior to Barbarian, and enhancements would provide little reason to multiclass Barbarians, which would be concerning.

Oh dear.

It's not the Core abilities that's the problem with Barbs currently {pre update} - It's the fact that to get all the Rage Boosts we HAVE to go into all 3 trees anyway!

Not to mention the other vital components for pretty much any Barb!


What we're trying to tell you is that placing Stackable H-Amp in all 3 trees is going to be like lighting a match in a methane factory!


It's not that the Cores themselves are OP - It's that the player consensus is quickly going to become "What you've not got made up number H-Amp? BOOT!"


As for Multi-Classing - I'm not sure Barb Splash is ever going to be in the same category as Paladin or Monk so I really don't think you have to worry about Multi-Classing when thinking about Barbs!



As I {and others} keep saying - Where's the DR/PRR - Where's the AC boosts - Where's the Self-Sufficiency?

H-Amp alone doesn't = Self Sufficient
HP alone doesn't = Self Sufficient


Yes - It's very possible that these Barb Cores are OP - But simply removing the stackable trees would fix that!

[Therigar]

Good feedback so far.

I wanted to comment on one small thing; the reason we don't move the healing amplification and hit point bonuses to the main class is that we want barbarians who spend points in more than one barbarian tree to be able to double up on these bonuses.

Sev~

I fully understand this but it isn't a good thing for barbarians -- it is a good thing for barbarian splashes.

Two potential solutions:

First idea, make them part of the barbarian class and just make them occur at different character levels rather all at once at levels 4/8/12/16/20. Personally I'd move them to L8 and then add them in every other level or there abouts until they are fully available. Keep in mind that barbarians, pure barbarians anyway, will have reason to take from all the trees anyway so don't need this as an encouragement to use multiple trees.

Second idea, move them deep in the cores so that 6 level spalshes don't generate much benefit. Right now a 6 level splash can get +20 from Ravager, +20 from Occult Slayer and +40 from Frenzied Berzerker. That is +80 healing amp with a 6 level splash -- not to mention full access to any of the trees. Since the benefits are intended to stack simply move them deeper into the cores with larger values if necessary.

[FranOhmsford]

The whole thing about spending ALL AP in a single tree is merely an opinion of yours, I for one would hate to be forced into spending only on one tree. Your more then welcome to spend the majority of points into a single tree, but to have a tree capable of supporting 70+ AP just seems wrong to me as there are other low hanging fruit from other trees, that complement all 3 trees as well as the class as a whole. The trees were designed for that, thats why there is no 'general' class tree.

Why don't people read the entire post?

I stated:

Of course I MAY want to play a more balanced character taking points from all 3 available class trees BUT that should be MY choice!

I've never said I am against generic builds {and no I'm not using generic in a pejorative sense here!}.
I simply ask that there be options other than generic!
Options that just having the trees says we should have!

I should have the option to max out Stalwart Defender and put the rest {what few there are} of my points into my Racial Tree completely ignoring Kensei!
I should also have the option to make a more generic Stalwart Kensei!
OR a Full on Kensei with absolutely nothing in Stalwart!

And before you say I have those Options - Intentionally Gimping myself is not a viable option!

Hamp isnt really needed that much, and definately nto a 'must have'. Its certainly a desirable addition, but ultimately doesnt break a build if it doesnt have it. Out of about 10 characters, only two have heal amp enhancements currently, and only the one has invested in all out gear for it as well. and out of those other 8, I'd say half arent epic and the ones that are have been able to complete even EE quests, with no heal amp, and its certainly available to anyone.

H-Amp currently is very hard to get - so much so that many players do without it {even with the Elite blacklisting you for not having it!}.

However - These changes would make it much much easier to get and so much much harder to ignore!
Basically they'd make it required!

[Therigar]

We're willing to be convinced that may happen unintentionally, but it's not an explicit design goal.

I am not sure that you are willing to be convinced. My experience with Turbine's developers to this point in time is that they think they know more than the players and that they universally are unable to accept that players are going to do things with the game that they had not intended.

It is the fact that there will be unintentional consequences that is causing so many people to question the wisdom of your current process.

I am going to repeat what I've said multiple times in both this and other threads -- the last two things to happen in the game were to make bards and paladins powerful, the barbarian pass will make barbarians generally equivalent, the synergy of 6 barbarian with 12-14 bard is going to make that the most powerful build from a melee perspective.

The stacking of +80 healing amp from the first 3 cores, the L5 min character level for full access to the barbarian trees, the combination of bard Swashbuckler already being hotly debated as superior DPS to paladin (even with Holy Sword and Zeal) -- the synergy that you are building into that build is what your unintended impact is going to be.

Earlier in this thread the same observation about barbarian 6/druid 13-14 was downplayed. But a similar potential for synergy exists there -- particularly in wolf-form druids or in elemental form druids.

The lack of concern by others over the barbarian/druid may be valid. However, the insanity of a bard being the highest damage melee character should be obvious to everyone.

And that is what you are unleashing with things as they now stand.

[Scrabbler]

It's the fact that to get all the Rage Boosts we HAVE to go into all 3 trees anyway!

No: things like Power Rage, Hardy Rage, Extra Rage, and Extended Rage are all very low in enhancement trees, so them being split among different trees is no obstacle. If they were not split then that would be a problem, as it would be too biased towards two trees having unfavorable access to standard stuff.

[Qhualor]

You gain benefit from spending in multiple barbarian trees. This is also true for every other class, of course. You aren't required to, and you also gain benefit from spending in one barbarian tree, one cleric tree, and one bard tree -- the benefits are different, but in each case spending more AP gives more benefit.

We don't expect it to be a requirement that all barbarians only spend on barbarian trees, but if a major goal is very high healing amplification you are likely to do this. This is not necessarily going to be the most common barbarian build for multiclass barbarians (or heavily racial Barbarians like CON-dwarves, or some kind of INT based Harper barbarian, or other "non-standard builds").

We don't feel that the additional bonuses to existing abilities suddenly makes those abilities requirements for all barbarians. We're willing to be convinced that may happen unintentionally, but it's not an explicit design goal.

To a certain extent it almost sounds like the proposed Barbarian core abilities are too good and therefore everyone will need to take them over other abilities. It's been more common feedback, generally, that core abilities should be stronger. Have we gone too far?

Its not the way I envisioned for barbarian self sufficiency changes, but no its not too far. As I just said above, trying to boost your heal amp by doubling up on the cores will result in a liitle more survivability at a cost to DPS. Let's wait until Lama to see just how powerful it really will be compared to DPS.

I had another thought that would make some people happier and makes a little more sense.

Nerf the heal amp in the the cores some, but boost barbarian DR. There's been several good suggestions on how to make barb DR viable in DDO, so if this could be a possibility I would lay down some ideas. More damage absorption that scales better in the game keeps more of the flavor intact and less need to be healed.

[FranOhmsford]

No: things like Power Rage, Hardy Rage, Extra Rage, and Extended Rage are all very low in enhancement trees, so them being split among different trees is no obstacle. If they were not split then that would be a problem, as it would be too biased towards two trees having unfavorable access to standard stuff.

There's no need to be one or the other - I've said many times that Rage {If as so many people insist...it is integral to ALL Barbs} bonuses should be auto grants separate entirely from the 3 trees!

Then the space vacated by these enhancements could be used to strengthen each tree in its own speciality.