Barbarian - Occult Slayer Changes

[nibel]

• Why was DR/- not addressed at all in this Barb pass?
How about giving the innate Barb DR/- a multiplier based on Barb class levels?

Because unless they change the DR/PRR interaction to calculate PRR first, DR second, DR values can be 5 or 30 and will end up having around the same mitigation.

Back when the biggest baddie in DDO was a Pit Fiend who at best could hit you for ~50 non-crit damage, being able to get DR 10ish was absurdly good. Now common wolves in the wild hit you for this much, and bosses hit much harder. Yet, DR is still capped at 15 or so because... reasons?

And the funny thing is that when you have higher PRR, DR becomes more useless, because when you are mitigating 80% damage, being hit for 320 or 290 damage is basically irrelevant.

[Qhualor]

Because unless they change the DR/PRR interaction to calculate PRR first, DR second, DR values can be 5 or 30 and will end up having around the same mitigation.

Back when the biggest baddie in DDO was a Pit Fiend who at best could hit you for ~50 non-crit damage, being able to get DR 10ish was absurdly good. Now common wolves in the wild hit you for this much, and bosses hit much harder. Yet, DR is still capped at 15 or so because... reasons?

And the funny thing is that when you have higher PRR, DR becomes more useless, because when you are mitigating 80% damage, being hit for 320 or 290 damage is basically irrelevant.

if that's the case, I guess they should have figured out barb improvements before PRR system.

[HatsuharuZ]

To a certain extent it almost sounds like the proposed Barbarian core abilities are too good and therefore everyone will need to take them over other abilities. It's been more common feedback, generally, that core abilities should be stronger. Have we gone too far?

I think you're giving slightly too much HP. Other than that, no.

Suggestion: Lower the extra HP a bit, and give more DR/- from class abilities. Right now DR 7/- is superseded by... quite a few other things, including certain epic items and one of the unyielding sentinel core abilities. Now that you've removed most of the abilities that cost HP from the FB tree, that extra HP may not be quite as useful as damage reduction.


(On a separate note, the artificer trees have extremely weak core abilities. Might want to take a look at that after you're done with barbarians.)

[Failedlegend]

I think you're giving slightly too much HP. Other than that, no.

Agreed the HA + Healing Tier 5s are a great idea to facilitate the charge in and obliterate style Barbs imo are famous from (except OCs which imo is very subpar)

That said I would rather see Barbs get more DR/PRR in the cores instead of extra HP maybe even have a special say Barb Level 7, 10 or 13 ability that causes DR to apply AFTER PRR for them making it useful again.

(On a separate note, the artificer trees have extremely weak core abilities. Might want to take a look at that after you're done with barbarians.)

That and their 3rd prestige preferably one that enhances construct essence and the "inventor" side of Arties in the form of Renegade Master Maker.

Either that or add a cosmetic to the DDO store that makes smaller Warforged call the "Scout Model"

You could also do both :P

[Therigar]

How are you getting +80 healing amp? A level 6 Barbarian would get +0/+10/+10 healing amplification from the first three cores of a tree and that would require 11 APs minimum. To get +60 you'd have to spend 33 of your APs in three different trees and those points would only be spent in lower tier enhancements. That's a large cost for +60 healing amplification and I doubt it's worth using 33 APs in this manner. If you can make a workable build and feel the +60 is worth 33 APs and 6 levels of barbarian then great, though you'd probably be better off just taking 5 levels of cleric or favored soul and using spells to heal.

Sev~

I am looking at the three trees as posted in post #1 of each of the threads and stacking them for cores 1-3 -- Ravager, Pain Touch and Demoralizing Success for +20; Frenzied Berserker, Toughness and Frenzy for +20 success; Occult Slayer, Resistance and Elemental Defense for +20. You are correct that I miscounted, it is +60.

Yes it would cost 33 AP out of 80. That leaves 35 AP to put into Swashbuckler which is all that is needed. And, as a bard I would be using spells to heal.

So, I've spent 68 AP at this point and have 12 remaining. You can figure the rest of it out.

Is it worth it? To have what is potentially the highest damage build in the game and to get +100 healing amp between enhancements and items -- I think it might be a no brainer.

[Therigar]

one being that barbarians are currently forced to spend points in all 3 trees (which you've disputed) and the other the new core enhancements.

Just an aside to my other observations. I don't think that a pure barbarian is going to have any real problem spending their AP in 2 of the trees and that many will want to spend their AP in all 3. I think the tiered items in each tree are sufficiently enticing that there will be different thoughts about how to build.

To my way of thinking, it will come down to 3 ideas: most damage, will focus on Ravager and Frenzied Berserker; most self-healing, will focus on Occult Slayer and either or both of Ravager and Frenzied Berserker; most balanced, will pick and choose among all 3 trees.

But, for the cheap healing amp I imagine that most pure barbarians are going to dip at least a little bit into all 3 trees.

[PermaBanned]

Because unless they change the DR/PRR interaction to calculate PRR first, DR second, DR values can be 5 or 30 and will end up having around the same mitigation.

Back when the biggest baddie in DDO was a Pit Fiend who at best could hit you for ~50 non-crit damage, being able to get DR 10ish was absurdly good. Now common wolves in the wild hit you for this much, and bosses hit much harder. Yet, DR is still capped at 15 or so because... reasons?

And the funny thing is that when you have higher PRR, DR becomes more useless, because when you are mitigating 80% damage, being hit for 320 or 290 damage is basically irrelevant.

Yes, applying DR after PRR would need to be done first (and already should've been - wouldn't just be as easy as swapping their positions in damage calculation formula?). Second would be finding a way to make DR/- scale to Epic viability without further trivializing Heroics. Perhaps putting in the Cores of a tree (Berserker maybe?) that Barbarian DR is multiplied by a % of Melee Power (spitballing here: cores 12/18/20 would give #DR/- x10/15/20% of MP) As there's little MP to be had in Heroic levels this wouldn't effect that stage of the game too much, while making it a potentially significant factor in Epic play; and simultaneously keeping it to a small benefit in Barb /splashes while greatly rewarding deep/pure Barbarian level investment.

Under that proposal, a pure Barb with 7 DR/- x20% of 100MP would net 140 DR/-. Is that correct? (Math not my strongest subject ) Would this be too much? How abusable/cheeseable would it be? If it's too large to apply after PRR, would it be more balanced to leave the DR prior to PRR as it currently is?

I would much prefer this kind of solution vs "Amp healing to crazy levels." If the solution must be a crazy one, at least let it be a thematically correct craziness

[Therigar]

Those are not Barbarians, they're other classes with a Barb /splash

Which is what I've been complaining about. The early healing amp in the barbarian trees is going to encourage barbarian splashes. And, if bard is currently hotly debated as being the top damage build -- every paladin is OP thread eventually points out the insanity of bards as the best melee class -- then what makes anyone think that the low hanging fruit in the barbarian enhancements isn't going to further extend the bard's hold on that?

[Qhualor]

Which is what I've been complaining about. The early healing amp in the barbarian trees is going to encourage barbarian splashes. And, if bard is currently hotly debated as being the top damage build -- every paladin is OP thread eventually points out the insanity of bards as the best melee class -- then what makes anyone think that the low hanging fruit in the barbarian enhancements isn't going to further extend the bard's hold on that?

sounds like you are making a case for a bard nerf.

[PermaBanned]

sounds like you are making a case for a bard nerf.

Looks to me more like they're trying to prevent too good of a BardBarian synergy..

[Therigar]

If you are willing to gimp your DPS for low tier enhancements and a lot of heal amp, than you would be doing the same thing with Divine levels and not raging. Its like that build with FVS and barb levels.

You are wrong. It is not at all like that with any other character combination right now on live because no other character class on live comes close to the melee damage of paladins and bards. Paladins are exempt from the discussion because of alignment issues. But anyone who reads the forums knows that any OMG paladins are so powerful discussion inevitably draws the posters who throw out a bard build that can easily out-damage the paladin.

To get everything critical to bard damage you only need to spend 35AP in the Swashbuckler tree. If you spend 33 AP on the low hanging fruit in the barbarian trees you have 47 AP available. Like I said, you only need 35, 43 gets you some bonus goodies. You still have 4-12 AP to spend elsewhere.

Now, when you make the changes to barbarians you do not change anything for any of the other character classes. They are still all well behind the damage of paladins and bards. All you do is raise barbarians to rough equivalency with paladins and bards. But, we are talking pure or almost pure barbarians.

Try considering what happens when the top damage build in the game (bard) gains the low hanging fruit that 11 AP in each of 3 barbarian trees gives him to increase damage and also increase healing amp.

And, it does not work as well the other way -- mostly barbarian with a bard splash because several of the bard enhancements are scaled to bard levels -- meaning you want as many bard levels as you can work in.

Right now 6 barbarian/14 bard or 6 barbarian/12 bard/2 rogue looks pretty vicious.

[Qhualor]

Just an aside to my other observations. I don't think that a pure barbarian is going to have any real problem spending their AP in 2 of the trees and that many will want to spend their AP in all 3. I think the tiered items in each tree are sufficiently enticing that there will be different thoughts about how to build.

To my way of thinking, it will come down to 3 ideas: most damage, will focus on Ravager and Frenzied Berserker; most self-healing, will focus on Occult Slayer and either or both of Ravager and Frenzied Berserker; most balanced, will pick and choose among all 3 trees.

But, for the cheap healing amp I imagine that most pure barbarians are going to dip at least a little bit into all 3 trees.

yes, a pure will dip regardless in all 3 trees at the very minimum to increase their rages. there is also some nice enhancements in the lower tiers that a pure can still get without any problems with AP. My FB dipped enough into OS for Extend Rage and Ear Smash and all leftover points after racial and FB went into Ravager. now that FB is getting a bigger boost and the capstone is a lot better, looks like ill be taking some points out of Ravager. My Ravager has quite a bit in the tree spent, but again he dipped into OS for Extend Rage and Ear Smash and a lot of points went into FB. that was mainly because the enhancements that damage mob stats aren't good in epics. almost had enough to get Death Frenzy.

[theRolf]

Because class comparisons matter? I dont even run monk, but I know some people worked hard to get a light monk to work, and a ravager barb becomes infinitely better overnight with no invesment? Further barbs are treading into other classes territories and shouldnt be. Barbs should not be getting anywhere near the healing devs are proposing, they should be getting better buffer defenses, temp hp, drr, prr, mrr and dodge. Class vs class matters, and I am trying to get the devs to try and justify why barbs are getting better self sufficiency than classes that supposedly trade dps to get it? Barbs should get more damage and buffer defenses (which makes each point of healing more valueable and makes them need it less) but next to no healing.

If devs want to make potions better on barbs heres an enhancement for them:

Potion concentration:

Your years of drinking potions and other drinks have given you a greater ability to consume them. Your potions are 2/3/5 times more concentrated than normal producing more healing. Further at tier three you have gotten so resistance to the pains produced by the healing effects that the negative effects of silver flame potions are halved and have had their durations haved.

This is not a logical argument.

[SealedInSong]

To a certain extent it almost sounds like the proposed Barbarian core abilities are too good and therefore everyone will need to take them over other abilities. It's been more common feedback, generally, that core abilities should be stronger. Have we gone too far?

My problem with the cores is that they're both much better than most other cores (i.e. shintao's amp, or kotc's damage) but also essentially flavorless.

We didn't see any inventive new routes for barbs to go, or cool new flavors to explore.

There's just more ho-hum amp ease and hp inflation.

What I want:
Frenzied berserkers with astonishing dps but relative fragility
Occult slayers with interesting types of damage mitigation and antispellcaster tactics
Ravagers with cool/flavorful fear effects

Instead we just have every tree getting buckets of hp and amp.

[Therigar]

well a lvl 5 barb's rage lasts about how long? 2 min? then heal.

You forget that bards can rage too.

[Therigar]

By the current plans, it looks like it will be very attractive to use Barb5/Bard3/Whatever12 in order to get strong passive healing and huge crit bonuses (plus a nice bit of Dodge, Doublestrike, and UMD).

Although there's nothing wrong about allowing Bard/Barb combo classes, I recommend making sure it isn't too attractive by taking both these steps:

• Ravager self-healing depends on Barb levels, and will not function at full power with only 5 class levels.
• Barbarian enhancements or class features are improved to the point where a Barb19 has DPS similar to (or better than) a Bard19, assuming both are GSWF with the same weapon.

Somebody is starting to understand.

[Therigar]

Yes more DR and PRR and less amp for sure but it looks like they have made up their mind on what's what already

Because, as I said, they are not really interested in what players say -- they are convinced they know better and that we know nothing. But, the fact is that it is the players who each and every time come out with super builds immediately after each update because they saw synergies that the developers did not want to recognize as being there.

[Therigar]

if that's the case, I guess they should have figured out barb improvements before PRR system.

It isn't an if, it IS the case. It has been recognized and discussed on the forums before there was any debate on the barbarian enhancements.

I personally agree that barbarian DR should stack with all other DR/- types.

OTOH, PRR is effectively a form of DR just by a different name. From a pure mechanical perspective it does not matter if the final result is the same or better by calculating PRR first and then applying DR -- but, in theory at least the result could be zero damage if done this way. If increasing PRR instead of DR gets better end results then increase PRR by all means.

[Therigar]

sounds like you are making a case for a bard nerf.

No, I'm making a case for moving the healing amp and hit point increases and other "more of the same" pieces out of the cores and into the class itself (or, alternatively, moving them deeper into the cores to discourage the splashing). Not a nerf but rather a more well considered approach to the buff.

FWIW, I've posted this earlier in the thread.

Edit: By the way, one complaint is that developers are forcing people to at least dip into all 3 trees. If the "more of the same" were put into the class itself then that would help solve the perception that players must select enhancements from all the trees. I don't think that's what the developers want, Sev said that the intent was to encourage stacking -- meaning to force players to choose from all 3 trees.

[Qhualor]

You are wrong. It is not at all like that with any other character combination right now on live because no other character class on live comes close to the melee damage of paladins and bards. Paladins are exempt from the discussion because of alignment issues. But anyone who reads the forums knows that any OMG paladins are so powerful discussion inevitably draws the posters who throw out a bard build that can easily out-damage the paladin.

To get everything critical to bard damage you only need to spend 35AP in the Swashbuckler tree. If you spend 33 AP on the low hanging fruit in the barbarian trees you have 47 AP available. Like I said, you only need 35, 43 gets you some bonus goodies. You still have 4-12 AP to spend elsewhere.

Now, when you make the changes to barbarians you do not change anything for any of the other character classes. They are still all well behind the damage of paladins and bards. All you do is raise barbarians to rough equivalency with paladins and bards. But, we are talking pure or almost pure barbarians.

Try considering what happens when the top damage build in the game (bard) gains the low hanging fruit that 11 AP in each of 3 barbarian trees gives him to increase damage and also increase healing amp.

And, it does not work as well the other way -- mostly barbarian with a bard splash because several of the bard enhancements are scaled to bard levels -- meaning you want as many bard levels as you can work in.

Right now 6 barbarian/14 bard or 6 barbarian/12 bard/2 rogue looks pretty vicious.

I have yet to come across these "OMG! your paladin dps is so uber!" they did get a significant boost to dps, but I haven't come across any that comes close to Swashbuckler. im still not convinced they can straight up out dps my pure barbarian currently before these changes (on a level playing ground). ive watched the Cetus video if we were to use that as a measuring stick and my FB still does more dps. im not trying to flex muscles here, but ive done the before the update pally lives and the after the update pally lives. ive grouped with many paladins since the update and watched Cetus videos. I can only go by my personal experience, but a well built barb should still be doing much higher dps than a paladin right now.

Swashbuckler I could concede only if you were to actually use the enhancements in the barb trees. if all you are doing is tacking on a few passives from the trees and spending a bunch of AP mainly for extra hp and heal amp, than this build will only pull ahead with better survivability. but its not like bards, even the Swashbuckler kind, were having any trouble with heals or survivability. it still seems like a lot of AP if most of the enhancements in the barb trees are going to go to waste. if there was to be a class though that became OP by splashing barb, it should be bard because they have always had good synergy. the only other classes that were splashed in the past was Ranger and Fighter. I have no idea how well Druid would work though. Swashbuckler is definitely a powerful class and I haven't had the chance to line up my barb with any for a real comparison, but maybe I will on Lama.

as long as barbs pull ahead of Swashbucklers with sustainable dps and and the clear king of melee dps, than I don't think there is much to worry about low hanging fruit.