Barbarian - Frenzied Berserker Changes

[Qhualor]

You do realize that the first video is pretty close to the highest DPS barb you can make given these changes, right? The ONLY DPS I gave up was the 1 w selector, since I went for the healing tick instead.

The second video was 9% glancing blow damage lower DPS, to twist consecrated ground - and with this I scored a significantly faster completion time.

Lets pause...give you time to actually READ what I just wrote.


Now:

1. I am raged all the time, except to cast displacement and occasionally tenser's in high mob density fights.

2. Int is SECONDARY. Secondary means that I'm not an "int-based barb" as you keep purporting to be true. It is merely a stat that I try to get >40 for know the angles.

Your video in the other thread demonstrates a barbarian that I can out-DPS with a level 15. Bring that guy into ranks lol

I know I cant prove it, but I still hold to what I said. my FB barb on Live was doing higher dps. I don't expect you or anyone else to believe it. the difference is the survivability where you are able to keep consecrated ground to maintain dps longer than my barb could relying on SF pots. the dps difference has to be points spent, choice enhancements and the destiny. face it, not everyone will agree on builds and what to invest where.

1. ok. I do the same minus Tensers. I use clickies all the time if a friendly party member doesn't already pass it out. what I don't do though, like some do, is dismiss rage every 30 seconds to 3 minute to cast buffs on myself. I actually learned a long time ago when the game started to become BYOH and "my blue bar is mine not yours" to live without certain buffs.

2. after you said it was a secondary stat I have been saying since then when I bring it up that it is your secondary stat.

you didn't read what I wrote in that thread did you? obviously not, so ill say it again here and maybe you will read it. that video was meant to show Ravager and healing procs. the gear I used I picked up from the dojo cabinets. I wasn't trying to impress you or anyone else about the dps or the way I play. it was for the devs since nobody else is showing any kind of proof about the these new changes.

[Takllin]

the often made fun of variables I refer to all the time. I don't say it just to you. I say to everyone that posts these math formulas of melees using falchions, basic feats and specific enhancements leaving out a wide variety of other things.

watch the video again. he uses Know the Angles and even said Int is his secondary stat.

no I cant prove it and ive said because I don't have my gear on Lama that I am unable to prove anything. I conceded to you only because of that reason. I don't know though. its seems like a no brainer to me when just looking at FOTW and see increased damage while raged and looking at LD that I take 2 things from there to twist, but a lot of it is tactical/fighter stuff. the best thing it has going is Blitz, but ive also said its not a bad destiny for a barb. DC I see commonly used in game and said on the forums by others because of the survivability and there is some decent abilities.

they are playing a barbarian with a workaround for survivability and complaining about dps. that's not closed minded. that's wanting to play a class, but cant because the class itself lacks the proper survivability tools. tools that are being addressed right now, but how much you want to bet people who play barbs will still complain about dps?

incorrect. I never said barb dps does less than Swashbuckler. ive never played one and I can only go by what ive seen with my own eyes in game. I said im not sure if barb dps is hands down better or not. I did say a dps barbarian is better than a paladins and a Swashbucklers dps is better than a paladins. I have reiterated several times that barb dps, mainly FB but also Ravager as #2, needs to be top dog dps over paladin and bard or they will not be played anymore than they already do despite improvements to self healing and heavy armor defense because bards and paladins still have better survivability.

There is a difference between using INT for damage, and using INT as a secondary stat for Know the Angles...

Except it isn't that you can't prove it, you just choose not to. Cordovan gave you an option to get the gear that you lost, and you declined. I posted somewhere before, and I can't find it, but these are the ONLY things that FotW has that buffs the character while raged...

1d12 untyped damage
+3 Will Saves
+3 Intimidate
-5 AC
-10% Fortification
+9 Attack
+2 Wisdom
+6 balance, heal, listen, spot, search, concentration
+3 Saves vs Traps

So out of all of that...the amount of increased damage you get is 1d12.....that is a no brainer to you??

Yes, you are close minded. People are not playing their Barbarians the way that you believe they should be played, and because of that you think that their input/advice is invalid. They are playing a Barbarian class, Destiny choice has NOTHING to do with the class. Are Destinies geared towards certain classes? Yup. Does that mean that they are the only one you can use? Nope. They are independent of each other, outside of starting prerequisites when you hit 20 for the first time. They are still playing a Barbarian.

You really need to read posts better...I didn't say that you said Barbarian had less DPS than Swashbuckler. I said you didn't think Barbarian had higher DPS than Swashbuckler. See the difference? You also prove my point again, that you are asking for the same things that people who play Barbarians in EDs other than FotW are proposing...yet because they play in a separate ED from what you feel is the only way to play one, their input is ridiculous? Please...

I know I cant prove it, but I still hold to what I said. my FB barb on Live was doing higher dps. I don't expect you or anyone else to believe it. the difference is the survivability where you are able to keep consecrated ground to maintain dps longer than my barb could relying on SF pots. the dps difference has to be points spent, choice enhancements and the destiny. face it, not everyone will agree on builds and what to invest where.

1. ok. I do the same minus Tensers. I use clickies all the time if a friendly party member doesn't already pass it out. what I don't do though, like some do, is dismiss rage every 30 seconds to 3 minute to cast buffs on myself. I actually learned a long time ago when the game started to become BYOH and "my blue bar is mine not yours" to live without certain buffs.

2. after you said it was a secondary stat I have been saying since then when I bring it up that it is your secondary stat.

you didn't read what I wrote in that thread did you? obviously not, so ill say it again here and maybe you will read it. that video was meant to show Ravager and healing procs. the gear I used I picked up from the dojo cabinets. I wasn't trying to impress you or anyone else about the dps or the way I play. it was for the devs since nobody else is showing any kind of proof about the these new changes.

including someone elses video of a barb using Int for damage

Yeah, see, you did say he used INT for damage...not INT as a secondary stat for Know the Angles...until I called you out on it.

You can keep saying that FotW is more DPS for a Barbarian than any other ED, but that doesn't make it true. Until you provide evidence that proves it. Hold to it all you want, but you are wrong.

[Qhualor]

There is a difference between using INT for damage, and using INT as a secondary stat for Know the Angles...

Except it isn't that you can't prove it, you just choose not to. Cordovan gave you an option to get the gear that you lost, and you declined. I posted somewhere before, and I can't find it, but these are the ONLY things that FotW has that buffs the character while raged...

1d12 untyped damage
+3 Will Saves
+3 Intimidate
-5 AC
-10% Fortification
+9 Attack
+2 Wisdom
+6 balance, heal, listen, spot, search, concentration
+3 Saves vs Traps

So out of all of that...the amount of increased damage you get is 1d12.....that is a no brainer to you??

Yes, you are close minded. People are not playing their Barbarians the way that you believe they should be played, and because of that you think that their input/advice is invalid. They are playing a Barbarian class, Destiny choice has NOTHING to do with the class. Are Destinies geared towards certain classes? Yup. Does that mean that they are the only one you can use? Nope. They are independent of each other, outside of starting prerequisites when you hit 20 for the first time. They are still playing a Barbarian.

You really need to read posts better...I didn't say that you said Barbarian had less DPS than Swashbuckler. I said you didn't think Barbarian had higher DPS than Swashbuckler. See the difference? You also prove my point again, that you are asking for the same things that people who play Barbarians in EDs other than FotW are proposing...yet because they play in a separate ED from what you feel is the only way to play one, their input is ridiculous? Please...





Yeah, see, you did say he used INT for damage...not INT as a secondary stat for Know the Angles...until I called you out on it.

You can keep saying that FotW is more DPS for a Barbarian than any other ED, but that doesn't make it true. Until you provide evidence that proves it. Hold to it all you want, but you are wrong.

its not just abilities while you are raged. its the abilities that stack while raged too. while raging you increase your damage with strength or con. tacking on other abilities that deal 300% - 400% damage, increasing crit threat range from +4 to +16, boulder tossing that deals well over 1k damage and extra untyped damaged to helpless targets that increases when their hp goes down. that's just in FOTW that doesn't include heroic enhancements that also can be used while clicking on these.

that is a no brainer to me.

people can play their barbs any way they want and im not against that. don't paint me as someone against build variety. all ive said is that from what ive seen and heard about how others build their barbs, they are unsatisfied with their dps and its because they invest in a lesser dps destiny, build for a blue bar and wont rage.

you didn't say this?

"Ridiculous changes? You've said yourself that you feel that FB doesn't do more damage then Swashbuckler...the same things that other people are saying."

I need to read posts better? lol



what do you think Know the Angles is used for? Int... for... damage.

and your proof is based on opinionated basic math formulas disregarding variables. that's not "proof". you are wrong.

[Monkey-Boy]

what do you think know the angles is used for? Int... For... Damage.

wrong.

[Qhualor]

wrong.

Know the Angles: Activation cost: [45/30/15] spell points. Cooldown: 20 seconds. Antirequisite: Divine Might. You gain an Insight bonus to damage and the DC of tactical feats equal to 1/2 of your Intelligence modifier for [30/60/120] seconds

oh please tell me im reading it right and it is for Int for damage.

[Monkey-Boy]

Know the Angles: Activation cost: [45/30/15] spell points. Cooldown: 20 seconds. Antirequisite: Divine Might. You gain an Insight bonus to damage and the DC of tactical feats equal to 1/2 of your Intelligence modifier for [30/60/120] seconds

oh please tell me im reading it right and it is for Int for damage.

The only way somebody could tell you that you are right is if they felt like lying to you.

It STACKS with your STR, doesn't replace it.

[Qhualor]

The only way somebody could tell you that you are right is if they felt like lying to you.

It STACKS with your STR, doesn't replace it.

I was afraid of that. so his argument for having Know the Angles and a high Int on a barb is because he uses a tactical destiny and wants a little more dps and higher tactics. but he still complains about barb dps...

[Takllin]

its not just abilities while you are raged. its the abilities that stack while raged too. while raging you increase your damage with strength or con. tacking on other abilities that deal 300% - 400% damage, increasing crit threat range from +4 to +16, boulder tossing that deals well over 1k damage and extra untyped damaged to helpless targets that increases when their hp goes down. that's just in FOTW that doesn't include heroic enhancements that also can be used while clicking on these.

that is a no brainer to me.

people can play their barbs any way they want and im not against that. don't paint me as someone against build variety. all ive said is that from what ive seen and heard about how others build their barbs, they are unsatisfied with their dps and its because they invest in a lesser dps destiny, build for a blue bar and wont rage.

you didn't say this?

"Ridiculous changes? You've said yourself that you feel that FB doesn't do more damage then Swashbuckler...the same things that other people are saying."

I need to read posts better? lol



what do you think Know the Angles is used for? Int... for... damage.

and your proof is based on opinionated basic math formulas disregarding variables. that's not "proof". you are wrong.

Except that you said specifically it was the increased DPS while raged.....

Boulder Toss is a huge loss of DPS...the casting animation for that is ridiculous. Sense Weakness is easily and widely used as a twist. Adrenaline is only one attack that gets that proc...

You do realize that those abilities stack with all classes right? Not just Barbarians that are raged...

They do use Barbarian Rage! Holy hell...show some videos or people that play a Barbarian, don't use Rage, and complain about Barbarian DPS...because as far as I can tell...there are none. You are just making up these people.

Yes, I said exactly that. Read it AGAIN. Barbarians do not do MORE damage than Swashbuckler. I did not accuse you of saying they have LESS DPS. There is a difference there, and if you don't realize that, then I'm done responding to you.

Yes, Know the Angles uses INT for damage. You do realize, the implications of saying that someone uses INT for damage right? That means that it is their primary damage stat. Which, for his build, it is NOT.

It is actually based on empirical evidence that can be found all over these forums. As much as I disagree with BigErkyKid, did you see his challenge on other EDs vs Masters Blitz? FotW is a lot worse than Masters Blitz...You are seriously the only person that believes that FotW is better DPS than any other ED as a Barbarian. As all the other DPS things in FotW are usable by every other class in DDO.

Which, is hilarious, because the only DPS related to being a Barbarian is 1d12 untyped damage that doesn't even scale with MP...that has bad drawbacks(-5 AC, -10% Fort). So with all that being said...

[Qhualor]

Except that you said specifically it was the increased DPS while raged.....

Boulder Toss is a huge loss of DPS...the casting animation for that is ridiculous. Sense Weakness is easily and widely used as a twist. Adrenaline is only one attack that gets that proc...

You do realize that those abilities stack with all classes right? Not just Barbarians that are raged...

They do use Barbarian Rage! Holy hell...show some videos or people that play a Barbarian, don't use Rage, and complain about Barbarian DPS...because as far as I can tell...there are none. You are just making up these people.

Yes, I said exactly that. Read it AGAIN. Barbarians do not do MORE damage than Swashbuckler. I did not accuse you of saying they have LESS DPS. There is a difference there, and if you don't realize that, then I'm done responding to you.

Yes, Know the Angles uses INT for damage. You do realize, the implications of saying that someone uses INT for damage right? That means that it is their primary damage stat. Which, for his build, it is NOT.

It is actually based on empirical evidence that can be found all over these forums. As much as I disagree with BigErkyKid, did you see his challenge on other EDs vs Masters Blitz? FotW is a lot worse than Masters Blitz...You are seriously the only person, in your own little world, that believes that FotW is better DPS than any other ED as a Barbarian. As all the other DPS things in FotW are usable by every other class in DDO.

Which, is hilarious, because the only DPS related to being a Barbarian is 1d12 untyped damage that doesn't even scale with MP...that has bad drawbacks(-5 AC, -10% Fort). So with all that being said...

/sigh you try to focus too hard on the specifics of words to prove a point and it fails. rage has everything to do with dps and there are many abilities affected by only being raged and by the increased str/con score of rage adding more dps.

I love how "huge loss of dps" is always thrown around here on the forums. the "huge loss" is casting time is the same as the "huge loss in dps" is with smites. so you "lose" a second casting Boulder Toss while running towards the mobs or you "lose dps" ranging mobs up high that you could just skip past. I know that Sense Weakness is used as a twist. whats your point? I don't have to twist it when I can just twist Momentum Swing, Lay Waste to reset my cleave attacks faster and deal huge numbers to mobs with just those. Adrenaline has a 5 second cooldown. you can use them for as much as you have them and they are easy enough to build up. so its not 300% damage every hit, but its 300% damage every 5-10 seconds. umm, yeah.

you continue to miss the point. all classes CAN have the same things stack, but do they? each build is different mostly. I know there are plenty of cookie cutter builds out there, but we aren't all play Paladins or Bards are we?

yeah, sorry. im seeing some that don't rage so they can UMD or rage for a short time so they can UMD. some don't like the penalties attached to rage. lol, now you want me to show proof of these barb players that don't rage? need to calm down a bit I think. you are taking things a little too close to the deep end here.

in black and white and still trying to talk your way out of it.

ok, so Cetus is investing in Int on a barb for SOME extra damage than. this is all so confusing to me. so we just went back around to go back to what I was saying before. he uses Know the Angles for damage. not a lot of damage because its his secondary stat. just some. if it were me, and what do I know, I would have put those points into something just as useful if not better for damage. that way his blue bar would be more useful for consecrated ground and not run out so fast.

im the only one because im not a lemming. I actually play the game and know how to build a dps barbarian. the forums is always so full of s*** and you just have to know the difference. i don't come here looking for build advice or any other game advice. I come here because theres a lot of false that gets spread on here and I have no qualms with standing up and saying "that's bulls***". every math formula I can easily dispute because they never include variables or take into account different mobs, different quest set up and its assumed that "this is how a barb is supposed to be built with falchions and Know the Angles in Divine Crusader destiny for max dps".

[Cetus]

a barb is supposed to be built with falchions and Know the Angles in Divine Crusader destiny for max dps".

You mentioned this part in bold before, which barb did that?

[Eth]

ok, so Cetus is investing in Int on a barb for SOME extra damage than. this is all so confusing to me. so we just went back around to go back to what I was saying before. he uses Know the Angles for damage. not a lot of damage because its his secondary stat. just some. if it were me, and what do I know, I would have put those points into something just as useful if not better for damage. that way his blue bar would be more useful for consecrated ground and not run out so fast.

I haven't read everything here, but this leaves me wondering.
With a medium investment into Int (let's say you have 34 at cap), that's +6 damage from Know the Angles and +1 Damage from enchantment from the harper tree for just 6-8 AP.
I can't think of anything that gives you 7 damage for just 6-8 AP (or like you phrase it - 'Just as useful if not better' WHAT?!)
And it's not like you give anything up. Put some start points into Int and wear some Int items on your gear. Done.

That's like saying not using a deadly item because this or that is more useful.

[Dalsheel]

So out of all of that...the amount of increased damage you get is 1d12.....that is a no brainer to you??

Don't forget +6 base damage from the cores

ok, so Cetus is investing in Int on a barb for SOME extra damage than. this is all so confusing to me. so we just went back around to go back to what I was saying before. he uses Know the Angles for damage. not a lot of damage because its his secondary stat. just some. if it were me, and what do I know, I would have put those points into something just as useful if not better for damage.

I really fail to see what else could add +6-8 extra damage with as minimal investment as Know the Angles, and of course let's not forget the bonus also applies to tactical DCs which can be translated into a LOT more extra damage vs trash.

[IronClan]

IMO making Qhualor the star of the Barbarian thread is a mistake and lends far more gravity to his arguments than they actually warrant.

[IronClan]

I haven't read everything here, but this leaves me wondering.
With a medium investment into Int (let's say you have 34 at cap), that's +6 damage from Know the Angles and +1 Damage from enchantment from the harper tree for just 6-8 AP.
I can't think of anything that gives you 7 damage for just 6-8 AP (or like you phrase it - 'Just as useful if not better' WHAT?!)
And it's not like you give anything up. Put some start points into Int and wear some Int items on your gear. Done.

That's like saying not using a deadly item because this or that is more useful.

The most immediately comparable thing to KtA would be the weapon training in various trees (such as Kensei, or Staff Specialization, Weapon training etc.) which require taking 4 tiers (minimum 22 AP investment in a class tree)

So you could get 4 damage (one handed weapon) or 6 damage (THF) for 2AP each tier or 8AP total while needing to spend at least 22AP's in the tree. And in the case of Kensei this would require taking Weapon focus and specialization feats.

KtA can be unlocked for 8ap (all three tiers) or 6 AP if you're okay with it being shorter but just as potent) and it's not difficult to get 38int (+7 to damage and DC's of tacticals) without sacrificing a single point in your damage stat (which is never a good trade off).

IMO anyone who has no idea about this (and other) opportunities to increase DPS, such as Defender stances, toggling to permit Primal scream and Tensors scrolls, etc.. pretty much squashes any implied expertise they may be feigning, and thus no basis to judge relative DPS options or make definitive statements on min/maxing.

That doesn't mean everyone shouldn't share their opinion about Barbarian changes... it does kinda mean that one probably should not be speaking stridently and taking hard stances from a position of implied expertise or authority. When one has proven they clearly are not either of those.

[RD2play]

Devs?!? Did you guys remove the +0/1/2[w] from supreme or is this a textbug only ? I mean why would a pally get better cleaves than a barb ? the only reason this ability is worth it is that it is basically a great cleave(+2[w]) with lower cooldown at the cost of 10hp now it will be worse than a normal cleave(+1[w]) with a hp cost ... this cant be intended!

tnx

[Qhualor]

You mentioned this part in bold before, which barb did that?

its been said here on the forums. I wasn't keeping track because I didn't know I would need to provide proof for it. I think I know one here but im not 100% so I wont say the name.

[Qhualor]

I haven't read everything here, but this leaves me wondering.
With a medium investment into Int (let's say you have 34 at cap), that's +6 damage from Know the Angles and +1 Damage from enchantment from the harper tree for just 6-8 AP.
I can't think of anything that gives you 7 damage for just 6-8 AP (or like you phrase it - 'Just as useful if not better' WHAT?!)
And it's not like you give anything up. Put some start points into Int and wear some Int items on your gear. Done.

That's like saying not using a deadly item because this or that is more useful.

this was my response to where he could have spent the "extra" points he didn't know what to do with. all he did was lol and complains barb dps isn't good enough.

Human- 12-18 AP spent

Core

Human Versatility- Damage Boost
Human Adaptability- Strength

Tier 1

Action Surge- Strength (1-3 depending on even score)
Improved Recovery

Tier 2

Action Surge- Constitution (1-3 depending on even score)
Fighting Style- Great Weapon Aptitude 3x

Tier 3

Improved Recovery

Tier 4

Improved Recovery (depending if you have spent 15 AP on Action Surges)

Occult Slayer- 7 AP spent

Core

Weapon Bond

Tier 1

Extend Rage 3x
Ear Smash 3x

Ravager- 7 AP spent

Core

Furious Rage

Tier 1

Barbarian Power Attack 3x
Hardy Rage 1-3x (depending on even Constitution score)


Frenzied Berserker

with the new changes im getting a total of 58 AP spent for what i want. that puts me at 84 AP spent minimum. that means having to make tough choices in the trees having to cut back 4 AP somewhere. currently i would be investing more in Ravager, but the changes in FB makes the tier 5s and capstone more attractive now. if you want, i can list what i would want in FB.

[DakFrost]

Why does anyone argue with Qhualor?

It's pointless and only feeds the troll.

[Eth]

with the new changes im getting a total of 58 AP spent for what i want. that puts me at 84 AP spent minimum. that means having to make tough choices in the trees having to cut back 4 AP somewhere. currently i would be investing more in Ravager, but the changes in FB makes the tier 5s and capstone more attractive now. if you want, i can list what i would want in FB.

I think everyone is capable of understanding the simple concept when it comes to enhancement trees that it's always a tradeoff.
There is still nothing in the racial or barbarian trees that gives you 7+ damage for just 6-8 AP.
If you don't have Divine Might (Cleric or FvS splash) and ignore Know the Angles, you are simply not building a max DPS Barb. It is that simple. You are likely trading off for more survivability in those trees (for example you can drop healing amp and con surge from human tree).

[lyrecono]

Sev?
since we haven't seen you in the lamania Frenzied berzerker thread i'm asking you this in here:

how do you percieve the role of a barbarian, and the frenzied berzerker in particular?