Barbarian - Frenzied Berserker Changes

[Qhualor]

I tend to agree with this. The problem is DDO gave away DR to the other melees in the form of PRR and totally left Barbs out of 1 of their inherent advantages. I suppose it's too late to do anything about this like give Barbs a ton of class based PRR/DR because everyone will scream "wah, no way barbs get any prr, thats for fighters and paladins only" despite the fact that Barbs are the only class that had DR to begin with.

The devs already gave some flimsy excuse why the run speed was upped for the other classes, so no chance on Barbs getting any speed advantage.

Sev said they couldn't balance barb DR properly. it either was too weak or too powerful so no improvement to it.

[Cetus]

Sev, the current changes to barb are a good start - but I strongly disagree with your statement regarding them being overpowered.

You haven't given them enough of an edge over a paladins:

-+2 threat expansion
-+1 universal multipler
-+1 W
-+10% Doublestrike
-Two free feats via cleaves
-3W and 5W versions of cleave and great cleave
-Divine might (with a 50 charisma I gain 20 strength - beating a pure berserker barbarian with all power rage tiers)
-Divine favor
-7d6 Light damage
-20 Potential melee power (10 capstone, 5 tier 5, 5 from smiting - which you can activate just by swinging the air before engaging an enemy)
-Divine Sacrifice
-Holy retribution

And those are just the DPS perks

Then we have heavy armor proficiency, amazing saves, whatever..

Barbs still need MORE, is my stance - unless you want to nerf pally's. But, I'd never call for nerfs because they are actually fun to play.

Right now, I still don't see barbs being played.

[XxJFGxX]

Sev said they couldn't balance barb DR properly. it either was too weak or too powerful so no improvement to it.

It does suck that medium armor is pretty much useless for the most part. It's pretty much light armor for evasion or heavy armor for AC/PRR and DR from the thunderforged armor.

[Scrabbler]

If Paladin feedback has taught us anything it is that players tend to underestimate the cumulative power increase of a lot of smaller changes.

Here's a different thing it might teach:

• Stupid comments are the most numerous comments. It's no surprise if a bunch of random internet people are wrong about something. It takes a lot of time and energy to write good accurate feedback, and not everyone is capable of that. But anybody can give a mistaken analysis in just a minute or two.

That fundamental pitfall is a serious known problem with crowdsourcing projects and even broadly applies to democratic governments. Political scientists have studied techniques to minimize that effect, but they all rely on giving the crowd an opportunity to challenge each others' ideas and point out what other people are doing wrong. And if a player tries that on this forum, within a few days he'd be banned.


Another way to put it, with a quotation from a very successful designer, is that "game design is not a democracy". I'll paste more of that quote:

class design is not a democracy. You have the right to voice your opinion, but that doesn't count as a vote. The developers have the right -- and the imperative -- to ignore your requests. I would rather have a handful of professional game designers shape the future of my class than leave it up to the 0.01% of disgruntled players who found their way to the feedback forums to rant about their pet peeve

The best use of public forum feedback is to make sure you haven't missed something; to check if a player sees a problem or opportunity you didn't notice. Using the volume of comments as a pseudo-voting to assign priorities usually doesn't work; it's the bad kind of "design by committee".

[Standal]

Just with that 25 melee power alone, the damage goes to 500. So divide by 19(since you auto miss on a 1) and it comes out to ~26 extra damage a swing...

Please explain to me why what happens on a 1 matters to what happens on a 20. The expected value per swing of 500 damage on a vorpal is 25. The actual expected value of this ability will be somewhat less, since a vorpal will sometimes occur when the mob has less than 500 HP when the on vorpal effect is applied. This is why forum math is always suspect. DDO combat is a complex system. It's necessary to make assumptions to simplify the problem to the point that a reasonably simple model can be made. It's then necessary to test the model in game to prove it. If you refuse to prove your work, don't expect anyone to accept it as correct.

[Blackheartox]

Please explain to me why what happens on a 1 matters to what happens on a 20. The expected value per swing of 500 damage on a vorpal is 25. The actual expected value of this ability will be somewhat less, since a vorpal will sometimes occur when the mob has less than 500 HP when the on vorpal effect is applied. This is why forum math is always suspect. DDO combat is a complex system. It's necessary to make assumptions to simplify the problem to the point that a reasonably simple model can be made. It's then necessary to test the model in game to prove it. If you refuse to prove your work, don't expect anyone to accept it as correct.

I dont need to use math to know that a swf or 2 weapon fight barb will proc those 20s quite offten.
If you dont belive me play a pure barb with balanced attacks and you will be impressed how much it actually procs.

The scaling is a double edged sword.
It will give players the power they want from barb, but issue is, if those numbers are set to high percentage wise it will be most definitely broken system.

We presented on blood tribute, i used blitz and eth used fury of the wild as example.
If those 2 arent proof enough of this system being possibly broken, then i dont know what else could verify that melle scaling per ability needs to be finetuned and not just a random over the top number like it is currently.

I am eager to show proof on lama forums about this system as well with pscreens.
Im sad that i didnt provide any feedback in bard/palie changes, if i was around and if they listend to me a bit, none monks nor palies nor bards would be what they are now.
I dont want barbs to be the "new" thing.
Balance is required. For all classes, and nerfing.
Palie requires a nerf, bard requires a nerf, monk was proxy nerfed by prr/mrr changes but even now its incredibly strong.

Simple way would be to swap crit mult from earth to fire, make swf give enchantment att speed bonus and make holy sword a multiselector.
Simple, maybe not easy to code tho

[guzzlr]

Not exactly sure why I'm posting this. It started as a funny thought while running High Road quests last night, and became one of those "well, why not?" things.

Anyway...

Smash (tier 3,4?). You salivate at the sound of breaking glass, and you absolutely cannot pass a barrel without swinging your great axe with reckless abandon. You enter a joyous rage any time you actually break something, increasing your Smash and Dash Counter. Counters last 30 seconds (each breakable would increase the time by 30 seconds, so if you broke 5 breakables you get 150 seconds) and each one grants a +(?) melee power, +(?) temporary hit points. I tend to think of this something like master's blitz.

Dash. While a S&D counter is active you may target any breakable and dash straight to it, knocking over anything in your way (similar to the vanguard ability). I know this would be pretty useless, but fun all the same.

Additionally (another tier?), once every 5 minutes you can "find something...anything...to break." This ability allows you to break things not normally breakable. Meta game, this translates to allowing the player to "summon" a random number (3+1d6?) of breakables in their immediate area for them to happily smash. Think of it more like being able to smash the things around a room that we can't normally interact with, rather than some supernatural ability to summon breakables. The main reason for this ability would be boss fights.

*shrug* It amused me and I'm sure it would cause all sorts of mechanics to go crazy in game, but I thought offering a different way to get dps and hp might be fun.

[Grailhawk]

Sev, the current changes to barb are a good start - but I strongly disagree with your statement regarding them being overpowered.

You haven't given them enough of an edge over a paladins:

-+2 threat expansion
-+1 universal multipler
-+1 W
-+10% Doublestrike
-Two free feats via cleaves
-3W and 5W versions of cleave and great cleave
-Divine might (with a 50 charisma I gain 20 strength - beating a pure berserker barbarian with all power rage tiers)
-Divine favor
-7d6 Light damage
-20 Potential melee power (10 capstone, 5 tier 5, 5 from smiting - which you can activate just by swinging the air before engaging an enemy)
-Divine Sacrifice
-Holy retribution

And those are just the DPS perks

Then we have heavy armor proficiency, amazing saves, whatever..

Barbs still need MORE, is my stance - unless you want to nerf pally's. But, I'd never call for nerfs because they are actually fun to play.

Right now, I still don't see barbs being played.

Paladin	Barbarian	Winner
+2 threat expansion	+2 19-20 Crit Mult	Paladin
+1 universal multipler	+1 19-20 Crit Mult (Death Frenzy)	Paladin
+1 W	+1 W	Wash
+10% Doublestrike	10% Glancing Damage 6% Glancing Effects	Paladin
Free Cleaves	Supereme Cleave	Barbarian
Divine might (20 strength)	Rage + 3 Insight Item (8+6+3=17+3=20)	Wash
Divine favor	Furious Rage + Power Attack Enh	Barbarian
7d6 Light damage	6d6 Vicious + 2d6 Pain Touch	Barbarian
20 Potential melee power	20 Melee Power Passive	Barbarian
Divine Sacrifice	Ear Shmash	Barbarian
Holy retribution	Slaughter	Barbarian
Nothing	5 Melee Power & 400 Vorpal Damage	Barbarian

DPS wise as the proposal stands right now Barbarians out DPS Paladins, but Paladins have better self sufficiency and defense which is how things should be. Unfortunately the DPS numbers for both classes are too high.

Over all Paladins are still the better class but at least they aren't better DPS.

Edit: didn't have 2d6 Pain Touch.

[Monkey-Boy]

DPS wise as the proposal stands right now Barbarians out DPS Paladins, but Paladins have better self sufficiency and defense which is how things should be. Unfortunately the DPS numbers for both classes are too high.

Over all Paladins are still the better class but at least they aren't better DPS.

So make Barbs ubber, buff Kensai fighters, Tempest Rangers, and Rogues up to match paladin, and call it a day.

Or they could have simply nerfed monks a year ago instead of swallowing the spider to catch the fly.

[Seikojin]

Early testing on our end suggests that the barbarian changes as presented will probably make barbarians overpowered and when we hit Lamannia I suspect the player feedback will indicate we will need to dial them back. If Paladin feedback has taught us anything it is that players tend to underestimate the cumulative power increase of a lot of smaller changes.

Sev~

Good, I look forward to digging into them and providing feedback. Exactly how it should be.

[Qhualor]

Paladin	Barbarian	Winner
+2 threat expansion	+2 19-20 Crit Mult	Paladin
+1 universal multipler	+1 19-20 Crit Mult (Death Frenzy)	Paladin
+1 W	+1 W	Wash
+10% Doublestrike	10% Glancing Damage 6% Glancing Effects	Paladin
Free Cleaves	Supereme Cleave	Barbarian
Divine might (20 strength)	Rage + 3 Insight Item (8+6+3=17+3=20)	Wash
Divine favor	Furious Rage + Power Attack Enh	Barbarian
7d6 Light damage	6d6 Vicious	Paladin
20 Potential melee power	20 Melee Power Passive	Barbarian
Divine Sacrifice	Ear Shmash	Barbarian
Holy retribution	Slaughter	Barbarian
Nothing	5 Melee Power & 400 Vorpal Damage	Barbarian

DPS wise as the proposal stands right now Barbarians out DPS Paladins, but Paladins have better self sufficiency and defense which is how things should be. Unfortunately the DPS numbers for both classes are too high.

Over all Paladins are still the better class but at least they aren't better DPS.

This is a nice base comparison to get a point across. There is more I could add to it but, what do I know.

[Zerkul]

Do I smell a pally nerf in the future?

If any variation to paladin class would be nice to get +20 lesser heart to respec because I wouldn't play it anymore.

[Cetus]

Paladin	Barbarian	Winner
+2 threat expansion	+2 19-20 Crit Mult	Paladin
+1 universal multipler	+1 19-20 Crit Mult (Death Frenzy)	Paladin
+1 W	+1 W	Wash
+10% Doublestrike	10% Glancing Damage 6% Glancing Effects	Paladin
Free Cleaves	Supereme Cleave	Barbarian
Divine might (20 strength)	Rage + 3 Insight Item (8+6+3=17+3=20)	Wash
Divine favor	Furious Rage + Power Attack Enh	Barbarian
7d6 Light damage	6d6 Vicious + 2d6 Pain Touch	Barbarian
20 Potential melee power	20 Melee Power Passive	Barbarian
Divine Sacrifice	Ear Shmash	Barbarian
Holy retribution	Slaughter	Barbarian
Nothing	5 Melee Power & 400 Vorpal Damage	Barbarian

DPS wise as the proposal stands right now Barbarians out DPS Paladins, but Paladins have better self sufficiency and defense which is how things should be. Unfortunately the DPS numbers for both classes are too high.

Over all Paladins are still the better class but at least they aren't better DPS.

Edit: didn't have 2d6 Pain Touch.

Few marked errors or understatements here-

1. 10% doublestrike vs 10% glancing blows and 6% chance weapon proc; and you simply put paladin? 10% doublestrike is a LOT better than just 10% glancing blow damage. Remember, glances can't crit - doublestrike's can and do.

2. How does supreme cleave win over free cleave and great cleave that each do as much or more W damage than supreme cleave?

Since supreme cleave has a 3 second cooldown, you could probably just pick up cleave and forget about great - but that's still a feat you are spending that a pally does not. Barb cleave = 1w, 3w. Pally cleaves = 3w, 5w and free.

Pally wins damage wise and feat wise as far as cleaves go.

3. Ear smash better than divine sacrifice DPS-wise? Maybe you're thinking better CC, but definitely not better than an extra multiplier every 3 seconds.

Pally decisively wins the DPS game here.

4. Slaughter has a 30 second cooldown. Holy retribution is a momentum swing animation. Available pretty much all the time. Disagree here too.

Also, you're picking up tier 4 in ravager, capstone in frenzy, that's over 60 AP, then you pick up occult slayer ear smash - you are completely ignoring your racial enhancements and the harper tree, both of which I heavily invested into on my pally.

A stacking bladeforged damage boost + PA line + melee power from harper tree should be weighed in as well.

You may acquire know the angles on your barb, but with like a 40 intel that would be like 7 damage.

[Severlin]

Paladin	Barbarian	Winner
+2 threat expansion	+2 19-20 Crit Mult	Paladin
+1 universal multipler	+1 19-20 Crit Mult (Death Frenzy)	Paladin
+1 W	+1 W	Wash
+10% Doublestrike	10% Glancing Damage 6% Glancing Effects	Paladin
Free Cleaves	Supereme Cleave	Barbarian
Divine might (20 strength)	Rage + 3 Insight Item (8+6+3=17+3=20)	Wash
Divine favor	Furious Rage + Power Attack Enh	Barbarian
7d6 Light damage	6d6 Vicious + 2d6 Pain Touch	Barbarian
20 Potential melee power	20 Melee Power Passive	Barbarian
Divine Sacrifice	Ear Shmash	Barbarian
Holy retribution	Slaughter	Barbarian
Nothing	5 Melee Power & 400 Vorpal Damage	Barbarian

DPS wise as the proposal stands right now Barbarians out DPS Paladins, but Paladins have better self sufficiency and defense which is how things should be. Unfortunately the DPS numbers for both classes are too high.

Over all Paladins are still the better class but at least they aren't better DPS.

Edit: didn't have 2d6 Pain Touch.

Nice comparison.

The only Paladin specific change we are looking at is removing the +[W] from Holy Sword and reducing the extra enhancement to +1 which, as many players have pointed out, is probably gratuitous. (Don't worry, the critical related bonuses haven't changed.) That would push Barbarian up a bit in the DPS comparison.

The big question is how much effect the hit points and healing amplification will help Barbarian survival. We think it makes a bigger difference from playing with it than players are suggesting but we will have to see.

Sev~

[Grailhawk]

Few marked errors or understatements here-

1. 10% doublestrike vs 10% glancing blows and 6% chance weapon proc; and you simply put paladin? 10% doublestrike is a LOT better than just 10% glancing blow damage. Remember, glances can't crit - doublestrike's can and do.

2. How does supreme cleave win over free cleave and great cleave that each do as much or more W damage than supreme cleave?

Since supreme cleave has a 3 second cooldown, you could probably just pick up cleave and forget about great - but that's still a feat you are spending that a pally does not. Barb cleave = 1w, 3w. Pally cleaves = 3w, 5w and free.

Pally wins damage wise and feat wise as far as cleaves go.

3. Ear smash better than divine sacrifice DPS-wise? Maybe you're thinking better CC, but definitely not better than an extra multiplier every 3 seconds.

Pally decisively wins the DPS game here.

4. Slaughter has a 30 second cooldown. Holy retribution is a momentum swing animation. Available pretty much all the time. Disagree here too.

Also, you're picking up tier 4 in ravager, capstone in frenzy, that's over 60 AP, then you pick up occult slayer ear smash - you are completely ignoring your racial enhancements and the harper tree, both of which I heavily invested into on my pally.

A stacking bladeforged damage boost + PA line + melee power from harper tree should be weighed in as well.

You may acquire know the angles on your barb, but with like a 40 intel that would be like 7 damage.

3 cleaves one of which is on a 3 second timer is significantly better then 2 cleaves that have a little bit better W. In a 6 second time the Barbarian will make 4 AoE attacks vs the paladins 2 that's clearly better the extra W wont make up for the extra 2 attacks no way.

On the Slaughter and Ear Smash you could talk me into calling it a wash but I wouldn't clearly favor paladin on those.

Yes Paladins are a lot more flexible with there AP they get 80%+ of there power for 2 spells. Barbarians get most of there power from there trees which are better overall for DPS then the Paladin trees.

[Monkey-Boy]

Nice comparison.

The only Paladin specific change we are looking at is removing the +[W] from Holy Sword and reducing the extra enhancement to +1 which, as many players have pointed out, is probably gratuitous. (Don't worry, the critical related bonuses haven't changed.) That would push Barbarian up a bit in the DPS comparison.

Sounds reasonable to start, now give Tempest Rangers and Kensai fighters a little love.

The big question is how much effect the hit points and healing amplification will help Barbarian survival. We think it makes a bigger difference from playing with it than players are suggesting but we will have to see.

Sev~

Who's up for an all Barbarian EE WGU on lamaland this weekend?

[Grailhawk]

Nice comparison.

The only Paladin specific change we are looking at is removing the +[W] from Holy Sword and reducing the extra enhancement to +1 which, as many players have pointed out, is probably gratuitous. (Don't worry, the critical related bonuses haven't changed.) That would push Barbarian up a bit in the DPS comparison.

The big question is how much effect the hit points and healing amplification will help Barbarian survival. We think it makes a bigger difference from playing with it than players are suggesting but we will have to see.

Sev~

IMO too small a nerf, swing the bat harder, and don't be afraid to change the critical related bonuses. +5 Enh +1[W] +1 Threat, or +1 Threat +1 19-20 Multiplier, would be my suggestion.

[bbqzor]

The only Paladin specific change we are looking at is removing the +[W] from Holy Sword and reducing the extra enhancement to +1 which, as many players have pointed out, is probably gratuitous. (Don't worry, the critical related bonuses haven't changed.) That would push Barbarian up a bit in the DPS comparison.

This is foolish. If you reduce holy sword, you skew the paladin pass balance that JUST happened. There were things that did not happen because of holy sword, to now immediately reduce holy sword erodes that entire process.

You also have to adjust some of the other things up. Things like making Holy Retribution actually do anything remotely worth AP, fixing the smite animations to be actually playable (theyre still not, is this even on the radar), allowing the Cleave enhancements to qualify for Momentum Swing (to permit taking the destiny ability, it already resets it but doesnt enable purchase), etc.

Everyone is focused on holy sword being good, which it is. Perhaps too good. But thats the fault of pointing to one ability being buffed to prop up an entire class, instead of spending the time to go adjust all the other things to make it work like bard and barbarian are getting. The "paladin" pass basically comes down to "heres holy sword and vanguard" only vanguard is 10x the fighter tree it ever could be for a paladin since it just takes paladins too many feats to use properly. If you hurt holy sword, what are you going to do about actually going over the class properly?

The big question is how much effect the hit points and healing amplification will help Barbarian survival. We think it makes a bigger difference from playing with it than players are suggesting but we will have to see.

No it wont. Any outside source of healing meant to work in todays 0-50% amp "baseline" will certainly work in tomorrows 100% amp "baseline". More hp and amp wont stop hp from going down too rapidly, which is the barbarians issue. Getting it to go back up was never a problem for anyone healing who bothered to try at it.

If anything, the changes removing self-damage are going to matter infinitely more than the amp stuff. And possibly the T5 heal mechanics, those will just have to be played to see. But if they work only because of the massive amp, I wouldnt point to the amp and say "see its working"... if the amp was removed you could just tune the self heal up to compensate.

Stopping the self-kill and adding an in-class healing ability to use while raged are steps in the right direction. Piles of hp/amp and saying "now you can live"... yea maybe in waterworks or epic normal or something. Anywhere survivability was a question before, it wont change much. Ive played characters with 0% amp up to 400% amp on live, believe me Ive seen it both ways already, and its not going to help just on its own. Maybe as part of the other changes, but then amps hardly to credit there.

[bbqzor]

Few marked errors or understatements here

Same to you.

How does supreme cleave win over free cleave and great cleave that each do as much or more W damage than supreme cleave?

Its not free it costs 31 AP and locks up your T5 choice. Supreme cleave is available for 11 AP without a T5. And the free cleaves do not enable you to buy Momentum Swing, meaning if you use only the "free" ones you basically tap out on ever using LD. How does Supreme cleave NOT win here... 20 ap less, no T5 lock, bigger AOE affected, zero feat savings considering LD tree, what we talking only while in DC or something?

Holy retribution is a momentum swing animation. Available pretty much all the time.

Until you run out of turns. Sure, you can get 20ish turns, but you momentum swing more than 20 times a quest easily. And sure, turns regenerate.. once every 90s. If you want to say "20 up front with 90s cd after" is better than just a 30s timer, fine, but thats hardly a call everyone would agree on. But now youve sunk a twist on Endless Turning. Really you think thats overwhelmingly worth it?

A stacking bladeforged damage boost + PA line + melee power from harper tree should be weighed in as well.

Maybe, but I hardly think class balance should revolve around a single race. Doesnt mean it cant have good or better builds or what not, plenty of races cater to certain things. But to bring that up when comparing class balance... doesnt seem fair.

We get it, you want your bladeforged barbarian to be better than paladin anything under any circumstances. Hello bias. Now try to be bias free. Thanks.

[Cetus]

Its not free it costs 31 AP and locks up your T5 choice. Supreme cleave is available for 11 AP without a T5. And the free cleaves do not enable you to buy Momentum Swing, meaning if you use only the "free" ones you basically tap out on ever using LD. How does Supreme cleave NOT win here... 20 ap less, no T5 lock, bigger AOE affected, zero feat savings considering LD tree, what we talking only while in DC or something?

What awful reasoning. Hello! You are OBVIOUSLY going to capstone KotC, since we're comparing DPS here. You'll OBVIOUSLY acquire tier 5 KotC. We're comparing DPS here.

What other tier 5 abilities would you take a on a DPS pure pally build? Moot point.

With regard to supreme cleave, yes it wins with regard to AoE DPS - it offers no benefit against single target, in fact it HURTS you to use supreme cleave on a boss mob. Because you could be twitching instead.

In addition, what are your feat choices on a pure barbarian? You get your standard 7 feats + 3 epic = 10

THF, ITHF, GTHF, IC:Slashing, PA, OC, SB, Cleave, Great Cleave, Completionist - maybe better armor proficiency for PRR.

You would pretty much have to be either human, helf, or bladeforged - otherwise your DPS will suffer without the added racial boost. Your highest DPS option would be bladeforged, otherwise you can go human for an additional feat

Until you run out of turns. Sure, you can get 20ish turns, but you momentum swing more than 20 times a quest easily. And sure, turns regenerate.. once every 90s. If you want to say "20 up front with 90s cd after" is better than just a 30s timer, fine, but thats hardly a call everyone would agree on. But now youve sunk a twist on Endless Turning. Really you think thats overwhelmingly worth it?

Have you ever even played a pure pally recently using this ability? I've never run out of holy retributions. There are these things called shrines that essentially make them limitless in all relevant content. Even in EE MOD, I had plenty of holy retributions. Watch any of my videos and see how long they last. Yes, on paper it sounds like you'd rip through them quickly. But there are a lot of other abilities you are spamming that stretch them out when they are actually used - the same thing would happen for the barbarian counterpart in between your momentum swings, slaughters, ear smashes, cleave, great cleave, supreme cleave, whatever.

Maybe, but I hardly think class balance should revolve around a single race. Doesnt mean it cant have good or better builds or what not, plenty of races cater to certain things. But to bring that up when comparing class balance... doesnt seem fair.

Its not revolving around a single race. Bladeforged is simply a high DPS race which would be the go-to choice for some barbs. Human would be the other. Dwarf is the third one, but its DPS will be quite lower since it doesn't have a racial boost.

If you are comparing a bladeforged pally to a bladeforged barbarian, realize that you'll spend something like 15 or 16 AP in that racial tree alone.

If you want to acquire berserker capstone, thats 41 points. If you want to acquire a tier 4 in the other tree, thats at least 20 AP there + the cost of the tier 4 ability.

You're outta points buddy.

If you go human, then you liberate an additional 12-13 or so points, but you lose the PA line from BF, 5 points of tactics, and even 6% special effect glance procs.

Additionally, there's melee power to still be acquired from the harper tree that we didn't even begin to discuss - which my pally has, since pally doesn't need to jump around to other trees for DPS perks like barb does - its all in KotC.

We get it, you want your bladeforged barbarian to be better than paladin anything under any circumstances. Hello bias. Now try to be bias free. Thanks.

Nope. Did I say that I want barbarians to have better defenses than paladin? Well, I just shot your "under any circumstances" assertion.

Chew on this for a while before you claim that I'm "biased". The only advantage I see barbs having right now, is AoE DPS because of an extra cleave. But, if you want to be honest with yourself - also include the undead targets that take 500 damage on every 20 from pally KotC core as well. And currently, undead are not a trivial enemy. Then scale the light damage with their vulnerability to it too. Why do I have to bring these up? Oh, maybe I'm not the one that's biased here...