Barbarian - Frenzied Berserker Changes

[XxJFGxX]

Small? 25 melee power is not small...that is the most passive given to any class so far. It mathematically puts Barbarians I believe at least 10% ahead of Paladins. Per Grailhawks numbers.

You also conveniently leave out the 400 damage on a 20 which scales with 100% melee power....

That is only if you are playing a pure barbarian. And that extra damage is ONLY on a vorpal (20) roll. The extra damage on a vorpal and an extra 25 melee power on a pure Barb is still not going to match a Paladin in terms of DPS. Especially since the FB tree itself ability-wise, for the most part garbage.

Occult Slayer gets from a pure Barb 20 MRR while the Ravager gets nothing in terms of passive bonus in the trees ( I suggest PRR).

[XxJFGxX]

Early testing on our end suggests that the barbarian changes as presented will probably make barbarians overpowered and when we hit Lamannia I suspect the player feedback will indicate we will need to dial them back. If Paladin feedback has taught us anything it is that players tend to underestimate the cumulative power increase of a lot of smaller changes.

Sev~

These changes still won't make Barbarians overpowered. And even if it does, so what. Ever since the initial enhancement revamp Barbarians have been screwed over severely because alot of the abilities didn't work or was just plain worthless to spend AP on. Barbarians are long over due for a power boost.

[Munkenmo]

Early testing on our end suggests that the barbarian changes as presented will probably make barbarians overpowered and when we hit Lamannia I suspect the player feedback will indicate we will need to dial them back. If Paladin feedback has taught us anything it is that players tend to underestimate the cumulative power increase of a lot of smaller changes.

Sev~

Really? That's not the lesson I took from your paladin and bard changes at all.

[Skeen]

It is a defensive tree for Barbarians. It should in no way be on the same level as a Paladin or Fighter defensive tree. What is the point in having seperate classes if they all, more or less, have the same abilities?

Also you don't need to be a dwarf and use CON for damage to stay alive...he just chose that route to play.

Half Orc does have synergy with Barbarian....

So, what it sounds like you are saying, is that you want your barbarian to be like a bard...then play a bard.

Are you saying the Barbarian defensive tree should in no way be more defensive than the Paladin offensive tree? This seems to be where we are now. I don't think the Barb defensive tree should be more defensive than a Fighter/Paladin defensive tree but it should be more defensive than their offensive tree. The Barb offensive tree should offer clearly more DPS than any Paladin/Fighter tree which it does not currently do. Barbs can do nothing else but DPS, if they are not the top DPS then I question even having the Barbarian class. Clearly DDO went off the rails of D&D long ago so dumping the Barbarian class and having the singer/dancer be the top DPS in the game makes perfect DDO sense.

It seems like whenever I read in the forums about a Barb build touting it's ability to survive in epic content it's the CON to damage Dwarf build. I have seen some that are not Dwarfs but then again those builds only work if you don't rage and have 2 hot bars of displacement clickys. I suppose anything is possible with enough sovereign heal pots though.

Unfortunately the Bard (able to do massive DPS) is a better Barbarian so it would be more accurate to say if I want to play a Barbarian I should play a Bard. Problem is I want to use 2 handed weapons and smash.

[XxJFGxX]

Are you saying the Barbarian defensive tree should in no way be more defensive than the Paladin offensive tree? This seems to be where we are now. I don't think the Barb defensive tree should be more defensive than a Fighter/Paladin defensive tree but it should be more defensive than their offensive tree. The Barb offensive tree should offer clearly more DPS than any Paladin/Fighter tree which it does not currently do. Barbs can do nothing else but DPS, if they are not the top DPS then I question even having the Barbarian class. Clearly DDO went off the rails of D&D long ago so dumping the Barbarian class and having the singer/dancer be the top DPS in the game makes perfect DDO sense.

It seems like whenever I read in the forums about a Barb build touting it's ability to survive in epic content it's the CON to damage Dwarf build. I have seen some that are not Dwarfs but then again those builds only work if you don't rage and have 2 hot bars of displacement clickys. I suppose anything is possible with enough sovereign heal pots though.

Unfortunately the Bard (able to do massive DPS) is a better Barbarian so it would be more accurate to say if I want to play a Barbarian I should play a Bard. Problem is I want to use 2 handed weapons and smash.

Preaching to the choir Skeen. As I say it time and time again, this game has steered away from flavor a long time ago all the way up to now since the hit recoil from the frenzies have been removed. But FB lost the majority of the suppose HP bonus and heal amp from its core for an extra 25 melee power (if you are a pure barb) and alot of people were cool about it because it offered "flavor" which I see that as an unnecessary hit because the FB tree needs the boost.

[PermaBanned]

Early testing on our end suggests that the barbarian changes as presented will probably make barbarians overpowered and when we hit Lamannia I suspect the player feedback will indicate we will need to dial them back. If Paladin feedback has taught us anything it is that players tend to underestimate the cumulative power increase of a lot of smaller changes.

Sev~

While the out going DPS may (potentially) look that way at the moment, it will (or at least should) be the relationship between that out going DPS vs how fast our red bars shrink that ultimately decides it

[XxJFGxX]

While the out going DPS may (potentially) look that way at the moment, it will (or at least should) be the relationship between that out going DPS vs how fast our red bars shrink that ultimately decides it

Agreed

[XxJFGxX]

This question is to Sev:

You said that the Barb changes were tested on your side, so my questions are

Will "Wade In" be changed to something that is actually useful in combat?

Will "Lash Out" scale with melee power as well? If so how much?

Will Tantrums cool down be lowered and/or possibly share the same cooldown as great cleave?

[Skeen]

While the out going DPS may (potentially) look that way at the moment, it will (or at least should) be the relationship between that out going DPS vs how fast our red bars shrink that ultimately decides it

Exactly! Jump in, throw a few cleaves, jump out, chug pots, hop around trying not to get hit, wait for your red bars to fill up and then jump back in. DPS = 0 when you're dead or chugging pots.

[Hawkwier]

Sev, why are the changes to barbs apparently limited to changes in their enhancement trees?

Why aren't you guys looking at barb feats such as proxy-nerfed rage effects and outdated barb dr levels as areas that need fixing?

I'd have though those blatantly defficient areas would have been a place to start, but they don't even appear to be considered.

Just what is the issue here?

As for self healing - remove SF penalties and that will give us enough for self healing.

Then you can focus on giving us dps that leaves all other melees standing. As barbs should do. And cearly too. So far, you just aren't giving enough. More is needed.

If that then makes us too OP then dial back the other classes too at the same time as barbs. Maintain the differential.

There are plenty of examples of OP dps in the game: Furyshot, centred kensai, SWF, holy sword.

I'm fine with all that. Folks enjoy it. Don't spoil their fun.

But equally don't get all coy on us when it comes to fixing barbs. Bad timing. We want to have fun too. Fun that doesn't involve that LR20 heart stashed away in our banks...

[Thar]

Early testing on our end suggests that the barbarian changes as presented will probably make barbarians overpowered and when we hit Lamannia I suspect the player feedback will indicate we will need to dial them back. If Paladin feedback has taught us anything it is that players tend to underestimate the cumulative power increase of a lot of smaller changes.

Sev~

barbarians need a boost in dps since their main class attributes become more useless the higher you go in level. 8str/con isn't as much a impact at cap as at lvl 16. 7 Dr- isn't a drop in the bucket at cap.

heal amp will make it different but still need something to heal you. I still don't see the healing for most of the pre as being enough to make it worthwhile considering all classes are getting heal amp boosts.

time will tell. in either case these changes are changing the focus of the class form raaaarr... kill it fast to.... killl heal kill heal kill heal....

[Munkenmo]

On a seperate note, how come it takes so long for Elf Barbarians to Rage? A friend has always played one, and is fed up that it hasn't been fixed.

Elves are pacifists.

[Takllin]

Elves are pacifists.

Not this one

[lyrecono]

Early testing on our end suggests that the barbarian changes as presented will probably make barbarians overpowered and when we hit Lamannia I suspect the player feedback will indicate we will need to dial them back. If Paladin feedback has taught us anything it is that players tend to underestimate the cumulative power increase of a lot of smaller changes.

Sev~

highly unlikely, not only is the FB barb supposed to be the best melee dps in the game (when you considder it has nothing else to fall back on), it still doesn't come close to wolf form druids, swashbuckling bards or paladins.
Not whille the capstone dps keeps falling away every 2 hits you receive. As it is now. but you're right about one thing. You will be getting lamania feedback on this, a lot. dailing back? dail them up please!
Do us a favor though, wipe lamania clean so i can transfer my barb up there, it is stuck in transfer limbo since the last lamania build. ohhh, and make (death) frenzy a togle like power attack before carpal tunnel syndrome claims another victim.

Biggest one I see is heavy armored barbarians that dress like fighters, but with a lot more DPS. This isn't a class OP problem though. I've done a 180 after coming to this realization.

Heh, cumulative power increase of a lot of smaller changes. You mean like variables and build flexibility that forum mathematicians won't include in their formulas?

no more then logical, why wouldn't a frontline bezerker equip a better prottective item?
though 1 feat for 25 prr and 15 mrr (at the top of my head) looks cheap, the prr benefits at high level diminish due to the prr formula, my 18barb/2fighter in LD already reaches a near 200 prr.
It's biggest benefit seems the 2 feats, since the capstone kinda reeks (loosing it non stop on EE), then again, might aswell give it a try on lamania i guess.

as for the looks, thats where armor kits come in. i bet if turbine made a pink tutu, atleast some barbs are going to show up with it to troll their raid party members. i just wish they finished their programming on the mirror of glammering to include *all* weapons, i would love to put the cosmetic sking of the greatclub of the scrag over my sos/great axe/falchion/whatever. totaly not overcompensating or anything.......

[Scrabbler]

no more then logical, why wouldn't a frontline bezerker equip a better prottective item?

A "berserker" is defined as not caring much about his own survival, so wearing heavy armor would seem strange for him.

More important than that are:

• How lacking Heavy Armor makes the Barb class rules look, when every other class (except FVS) that can benefit from metal fullplate already has heavy prof. It makes it look like the Barb class is broken just to have a feat class.
• Reducing visual variety among non-Evasion melee characters.
• Reducing loot variety among non-Evasion melee characters.
• How it goes against the D&D rules, where not only did Barbarians lose specific class benefits in heavy armor, but ALL characters (except Dwarf) took a speed penalty when upgrading from medium to heavy.

The devs should look seriously at a way to discourage Barbarians from using heavy armor, such as creating an enhancement that gives them an extra benefit wearing medium or less. (It could be as simple as a PRR bonus, or another 10% running speed).

[lyrecono]

A "berserker" is defined as not caring much about his own survival, so wearing heavy armor would seem strange for him.
a lv 1 barb might but the entire idea of a leveling system is about the things you pick up allong the way, a wizzard learning spells from an enemy's spellbook? a barbarian learning cleave from a friendly fighter? etc
the reason why most people don't asosiate berserkers with plate mail was because it was simply not around at that time and place, they did wear helmets and shield (something i don't see you mention, though ddo's focus on berzerkers is on 2handed weapons)

More important than that are:

• How lacking Heavy Armor makes the Barb class rules look, when every other class (except FVS) that can benefit from metal fullplate already has heavy prof. It makes it look like the Barb class is broken just to have a feat class.
  barbs multiclassing into fighter happened in PnP and ddo for ages, normaly people forgo platemail because armor class was rubish, that changed with prr and mrr, don't get me wrong, i would love the heman/conan-esque look of the barbarian
  
  (thats a ripped chain shirt btw) i would love to see outfits like this in the store XD
  but realistly looking: this is a steam punk era, for a barbarian to survive, he needs to learn thing to get where he needs to go, a platemail protects him well these days.
  
• Reducing visual variety among non-Evasion melee characters.
  uhm, how many years did people run with dragonscale armors? dragon touched robes anyone? a bit of a staple in DDO.... that's why they sell armor kits in the store
  
• Reducing loot variety among non-Evasion melee characters.
  The last realy good, non dragonscale/touched breastplate that "wowed" me was the parasitic one wich had the ac of a (old system) platemail, a huge max dex and was crafteble to boot. a lot of good medium armors need to be added for that to work.
• How it goes against the D&D rules, where not only did Barbarians lose specific class benefits in heavy armor, but ALL characters (except Dwarf) took a speed penalty when upgrading from medium to heavy.

Speed penalties left players behind, they complained, it got removed, glad to be rid of it to be honnestly.

The devs should look seriously at a way to discourage Barbarians from using heavy armor, such as creating an enhancement that gives them an extra benefit wearing medium or less. (It could be as simple as a PRR bonus, or another 10% running speed).

this is a nice idea but many of us wouldn't want to give up enhancements points (wich is hard enough for a frenzied berzerker to gain something that is easy to achieve by equiping a platemail

[Skeen]

A "berserker" is defined as not caring much about his own survival, so wearing heavy armor would seem strange for him.

The devs should look seriously at a way to discourage Barbarians from using heavy armor, such as creating an enhancement that gives them an extra benefit wearing medium or less. (It could be as simple as a PRR bonus, or another 10% running speed).

I tend to agree with this. The problem is DDO gave away DR to the other melees in the form of PRR and totally left Barbs out of 1 of their inherent advantages. I suppose it's too late to do anything about this like give Barbs a ton of class based PRR/DR because everyone will scream "wah, no way barbs get any prr, thats for fighters and paladins only" despite the fact that Barbs are the only class that had DR to begin with.

The devs already gave some flimsy excuse why the run speed was upped for the other classes, so no chance on Barbs getting any speed advantage.

[Qhualor]

no more then logical, why wouldn't a frontline bezerker equip a better prottective item?
though 1 feat for 25 prr and 15 mrr (at the top of my head) looks cheap, the prr benefits at high level diminish due to the prr formula, my 18barb/2fighter in LD already reaches a near 200 prr.
It's biggest benefit seems the 2 feats, since the capstone kinda reeks (loosing it non stop on EE), then again, might aswell give it a try on lamania i guess.

as for the looks, thats where armor kits come in. i bet if turbine made a pink tutu, atleast some barbs are going to show up with it to troll their raid party members. i just wish they finished their programming on the mirror of glammering to include *all* weapons, i would love to put the cosmetic sking of the greatclub of the scrag over my sos/great axe/falchion/whatever. totaly not overcompensating or anything.......

in DDO, the better protective item is heavy armor. that's not what a barbarian typically uses for armor and is usually worn by fighters. the only sacrifice is splashing fighter or taking the feat for higher MRR and PRR which is an easy tradeoff for what you gain from it. the numbers ive seen for what a barb will get with this pass appear to be in the ballpark of what an actual tank can get. unless something changes, instead of fighters wearing pajamas it will be barbarians wearing heavy armor. we really don't need to go back down that road again and the barbarian is losing a lot of the flavor.

[lyrecono]

I tend to agree with this. The problem is DDO gave away DR to the other melees in the form of PRR and totally left Barbs out of 1 of their inherent advantages. I suppose it's too late to do anything about this like give Barbs a ton of class based PRR/DR because everyone will scream "wah, no way barbs get any prr, thats for fighters and paladins only" despite the fact that Barbs are the only class that had DR to begin with.

The devs already gave some flimsy excuse why the run speed was upped for the other classes, so no chance on Barbs getting any speed advantage.

the DR boat left the harbor ages ago, pure monks and fvs's already have more then that
if you want to give m more dr or prr, the barb is stil better of with plate, it also provides mrr
if you want to add prr and mrr you could code it to work only in outfits&robes, call it magical tatoos, though this would lock you out of a lot of defencive gear (dr30/60/epic shadow scale/epic necro4 plate comes to mind).
the problem is again, this costs enh points, a rare commodity for a FB barb, why waste them on something that easy to get with 1 feat or multiclass?
Sev already posted that they are only willing to work on enh and not on the class itself.

[HatsuharuZ]

I tend to agree with this. The problem is DDO gave away DR to the other melees in the form of PRR and totally left Barbs out of 1 of their inherent advantages. I suppose it's too late to do anything about this like give Barbs a ton of class based PRR/DR because everyone will scream "wah, no way barbs get any prr, thats for fighters and paladins only" despite the fact that Barbs are the only class that had DR to begin with.

The devs already gave some flimsy excuse why the run speed was upped for the other classes, so no chance on Barbs getting any speed advantage.

The extra run speed given to other classes needs to be paid for.

As for the DR however, I think the innate barb DR needs to go up by 3 points, for a total of 10 DR/- for a level 20 barbarian before enhancements or EDs. That makes it equal to FvSs and Monks, both of whom get 10 DR/something at class level 20 and can self-heal with less investment in class levels and AP.