Barbarian - Frenzied Berserker Changes

[Rautis]

I think a major reason for this Barbarian healing discussion is the way healing consumables are implemented in the game. There are couple of ways to get rather good healing effects through consumables.

• Silver flame potions
  • First you have to grind 400 silver flame favor
  • Then they only stack to 10 and nobody(I hope) knows why
  • Then when used they can cause helplesness if you didn't think/know about using them when creating your character
• Store potions
  • Break Immersion
  • Break your gaming budget
• Collectible potions
  • You can only get so many collectibles(atleast most people)
  • Weak cooldown properties

As you can see they all have a feature that makes them not so fun to use. Maybe it would be a good idea to come up with somewhat reliable healing consumables. This would save time from developing and (hopefully)balancing healing abilities that fit the class flavor each time some class falls behind in self sufficiency. There would be baseline self sufficiency level every class or build could reach by simply investing platinum and maybe heal skill. Examples:

• Bandages
  • Heal over time
  • Healing per tick and duration can increase with heal skill
  • Relatively cheap
  • Usable on others
  • Effect could break on damage making this out of combat style healing
• Bandages version II
  • Heals right away for amount determined by your heal skill
  • Could have stronger versions with heal skill requirements to use them
  • Can be used on anyone
  • Relatively cheap as they require build investment
• Potions
  • Versions that scale sufficiently to keep player alive in typical non-raid combat situations with decent plays
  • Price high enough that careless use may result in spending that is more than loot gains from quests
  • This way healers are still desirable as having one can mean considerable plat savings
  • Also someone might still use store potions because they're out of plat
  Cannith Crafting
  • Since you can craft things like arrows and runestones maybe recipes for healing consumables could be added
  • Probably cheaper than bought ones to make them worth the trouble

I used to play the 2002 NWN quite a bit before. There potions of heal fully healed you but on many servers you could go totally broke if your survival strategy was based on heavy potion use. You could live for a quest or two with potions you got and then you either had to team up or go earn some gold from places where you didn't need potions. They also got heal kits that healed amount depending on your heal skill check. Self sufficiency discussion barely existed there and people were very happy to get classes with inherent healing abilities to play with them for some free heals. Balancing the price might be tricky though. Maybe if done about right it could even make more people use store potions as they're more accustomed to relying on consumables instead of other means.

My first character in DDO had Heal skill because I thought it surely could be used to actually heal yourself and your allies. Then I found out that it was a newb trap even more so than today.

[Wulverine]

They can always bust them out now then.... Having a dedicate healer now still diminishes completion time, probably right around the same amount as having a dedicated healer following around a middle of the pack dps barb will.

So you wanna kill of any hope these people have of ever having fun in raids on their support characters again?

Really? GG.

[FranOhmsford]

what was once class abilities, are now spread out through trees. its no different with any other class. this is why we should have class trees.

Sorry but I much preferred the REAL Prestiges pre Enhancement Pass!

im not seeing "generic" in the trees. all 3 are unique and not the same.

So almost the exact same HP and Heal amp boosts being applied to each Tree = Unique to you?

if you do the math you get about ~70 temporary hp when activating Storms Eye.

I'm not seeing any Temp HP in Storm's Eye's Activation?

Cracking Attack is half useless. you take it for the extra (W) damage and as a pre-requisite for the other enhancements.

Lol - I'll take Ear Smash instead thank you!

As I said in the above post - That's a heck of a lot of AP to spend before you get anything even vaguely worthwhile from Cracking Attack line!

Athletics is half useless. you max it out for the movement speed bonus. its the only reason to take it.

Yes and Sprint Boost is in Tier 2?

Move Sprint Boost to Tier 1 and get rid of Athletics!

the -1 to Con is unnoticeable. with all the extra hp we will be getting it will be negligible. its now going to have 400% MP which is a huge boost plus getting temporary hp that will offset the -1 to Con. make it -2 to Con and I wouldn't care.

That's a STACKING -1!

Sorry but with OS Spell Res being based on your Con there's no way this is worth using!

Extra Action boosts a waste of AP? have to be kidding me.

Wow - You must really need Sprint Boost?

Seriously - Where are all these Action Boost Buffs you need Extra Action Boost Enhancements for?
It's not like this is the Kensei Tree!

Sprint Boost Tier 1 for the low hanging fruit?

And that's what Sprint Boost is - Low Hanging Fruit!

Players like being able to move faster but it's hardly a vital enhancement - There's literally no reason why it shouldn't be Tier 1!

Exhausting Blow isn't very good for epics. ability damage to mobs is unnoticeable and epic DW and all.

I figured as much BUT it does give much larger penalties {so long as you roll well} than other similar enhancements elsewhere so I'm ok with it.

there are a few that needs to be better, but overall the tree got a big boost. have to wait till Lama to see how good though.

A big boost from what though?

From literally no-one even bothering with it?

Sorry but it needs much more!

And less Top Heavy!

[Qhualor]

Sorry but I much preferred the REAL Prestiges pre Enhancement Pass!



So almost the exact same HP and Heal amp boosts being applied to each Tree = Unique to you?



I'm not seeing any Temp HP in Storm's Eye's Activation?



Lol - I'll take Ear Smash instead thank you!

As I said in the above post - That's a heck of a lot of AP to spend before you get anything even vaguely worthwhile from Cracking Attack line!



Yes and Sprint Boost is in Tier 2?

Move Sprint Boost to Tier 1 and get rid of Athletics!



That's a STACKING -1!

Sorry but with OS Spell Res being based on your Con there's no way this is worth using!



Wow - You must really need Sprint Boost?

Seriously - Where are all these Action Boost Buffs you need Extra Action Boost Enhancements for?
It's not like this is the Kensei Tree!



And that's what Sprint Boost is - Low Hanging Fruit!

Players like being able to move faster but it's hardly a vital enhancement - There's literally no reason why it shouldn't be Tier 1!



I figured as much BUT it does give much larger penalties {so long as you roll well} than other similar enhancements elsewhere so I'm ok with it.



A big boost from what though?

From literally no-one even bothering with it?

Sorry but it needs much more!

And less Top Heavy!

The old prestiges locked you out of other prestiges for the class.

Heal amp and HP in each tree is the same, yes, but everything else is unique.

Temporary HP is not in the enhancement just like its not in Frenzy activation. Its costs HP to use but you gain HP for activating it. Its a long way of saying temporary HP.

So you don't take Cracking Attack as a prerequisite for the higher tier abilities. Personal choice, but you are not adding more DPS that way.

You complain about not enough focus on a prestige than complain about too much cost to focus on a prestige. Too much contradiction.

I say no to low hanging fruit. Its exactly what's wrong with the power creep.

Blood Tribute is 400% MP. You shouldn't care about -1 Con. Huge DPS boost. Definitely worth taking.

No I don't need Sprint Boost. I need more 35% movement boosts from Athletics which is faster DPS per second.

If you don't build a barb for DPS than you won't see their damage potential. I build for dumb dumb DPS and I do out DPS most classes. Its the elite players that actually give me any kind of challenge.

[Scrabbler]

Temporary HP is not in the enhancement just like its not in Frenzy activation. Its costs HP to use but you gain HP for activating it. Its a long way of saying temporary HP.

Frenzy activation provides no temporary hp. It damages your hp.

Blood Tribute is 400% MP. You shouldn't care about -1 Con. Huge DPS boost. Definitely worth taking.

Blood Tribute is a defensive / quasi-healing effect. It provides no DPS, aside from allowing you to keep fighting for longer before running away.

[Feithlin]

We don't necessarily want potions to be more effective for other classes.

Sev~

Another way would be to grant barbarians potions boosting abilities, like: add some levels to the effect of potions (similar to arties), apply melee power to healing potions effects, get extra benefits from potions (similar to dwarves), add of HoT effect on every healing potions you drink, etc.

Not sure if it's already too late to make such changes.

[Qhualor]

Frenzy activation provides no temporary hp. It damages your hp.


Blood Tribute is a defensive / quasi-healing effect. It provides no DPS, aside from allowing you to keep fighting for longer before running away.

I didn't say temp HP is in the enhancement. I said its the long way of saying temporary HP. Look at the activation cost and what you gain from it. In my second post in this thread I even laid out the math.

Read the description again. In red it says 400% melee power.

[jalont]

So you wanna kill of any hope these people have of ever having fun in raids on their support characters again?

Really? GG.

They can use their support toons anytime they like. Most groups would still be grateful to have a dedicated healer. Of course, take it from someone that still heals occasionally... people have forgotten how to be healed. But that doesn't mean they aren't thankful for the effort.

[davmuzl]

When talking about barbarians having good DPS, that means they would be good as top DPS of all classes. But at the moment they are out-DPSd by bards, sorcs, paladins, monkchers and some more. And while I am ok with other classes out-bursting a barb, they sould really be the best when someone is looking for sustained DPS.

I am also missing the scaling for the DR. There is a way to get DR 30/epic and DR 60/epic from an items and barbs can't even use that item very well. They should get more DR and more prr.

That is very much heal amp. Getting some heal amp from their enhancements sounds good. Am I right when expecting the monk heal amp to scale up to 10% for each tier? And then they still have way less than a barbarian. Giving them half of what a monk can have atm would be better.

[jalont]

Barbs need to be top melee dps (there's no hope of them ever touching ranged builds) and have one drawback. Either no defenses/kill themselves with their attacks OR no reliable self healing. Having both of these drawbacks make them useless. Either untether barb main DPS from rage or untether casting from rage.

[Zurrander]

Is DDO a single player game now?

Let's make all classes average DPS and average self-heals, that will keep them special. /sarcasm

Barbs should be the king of DPS and with low to none self-heals.

Sev, Please take this guys advice. Giving Bards heals is just as much "taking there flavor" as removing the Frenzied Berserker self damage. Just give them Temp HP in the place of healing. Barbs take damage often enough that they would need constant healing to stay up, Temp HP could serve to protect them form said damage instead. Plus, Temp HP wouldn't penalize War Forged (where as Positive Healing will). Just make the Temp HP scale with Heal Amp or Melee Power.

So could you please for the sake of Barbs staying Barbs....
1. Make the new healing enhancements "Temporary Hit Points" instead.
2. Give barbs a crit multi boost (maybe a free staking Overwhelming Critical's like feat at Lv 18). So that they can stay far enough ahead of the damage curve to be worth the Heals.


In Short, barbs need to stay barbs. And that means Massive Damage with no self heals.

[Scrabbler]

I didn't say temp HP is in the enhancement. I said its the long way of saying temporary HP. Look at the activation cost and what you gain from it. In my second post in this thread I even laid out the math.

Forth post probably, not second. And like I told you then, your reading of those enhancements is completely scrambled.

You say that Frenzy, Death Frenzy, and Storm's Eye all provide temporary hitpoints when the icon is clicked. That is false: they provide a permanent increase to your hitpoint maximum as soon as you train the enhancement. All of them also cause self-damage to hitpoints when clicked.

Read the description again. In red it says 400% melee power.

Yes, the temporary hitpoints from Blood Tribute are scaled by 400% of your current Meleepower. That protects you from damage longer, but doesn't directly help DPS.

[Qhualor]

Forth post probably, not second. And like I told you then, your reading of those enhancements is completely scrambled.

You say that Frenzy, Death Frenzy, and Storm's Eye all provide temporary hitpoints when the icon is clicked. That is false: they provide a permanent increase to your hitpoint maximum as soon as you train the enhancement. All of them also cause self-damage to hitpoints when clicked.



Yes, the temporary hitpoints from Blood Tribute are scaled by 400% of your current Meleepower. That protects you from damage longer, but doesn't directly help DPS.

You are totally not reading what I am saying. I did not say they provide temporary HP. Add and subtract what you get when you click on the button. I said its like temporary HP. I know Frenzy causes you to lose HP. I don't know why you are saying that when I'm talking about the cost of activating and what you get for activating Frenzy.

OK I can see my confusion with melee power and Blood Tribute. I assumed that it applied to damage as well as temporary HP.

[FestusHood]

It probably should be. I'll bring it up with the team.

(It might be that it would boost the self damage as well.)

Sev~

Not sure if this is important, but the self damage is affected by dungeon scaling.

[FestusHood]

It matters if your damage output can cause enough of an impetus for people to start playing healers. Who cares if they have self healing right now, when you can just play a pally or even a bladeforged centered kensei and do just as much damage without worrying about any self healing?

The distinguishing factor for a barbarian should be massive damage at the expense of survivability.

I completely agree with this. There are three barb trees. Make one of them, preferably berserker, the insane damage with no self healing one. That way the people who actually don't like barbarians, but would play one if they just weren't, you know, barbarians, can use the other two.

I personally found the self damage from the berserker tree to be fairly negligible when i played my last barbarian. I find it funny when people talk about killing themselves with it. If you surround yourself with 7 epic elite mobs to cleave them, self damage is the least of your worries.

[theRolf]

Sev, Please take this guys advice. Giving Bards heals is just as much "taking there flavor" as removing the Frenzied Berserker self damage. Just give them Temp HP in the place of healing. Barbs take damage often enough that they would need constant healing to stay up, Temp HP could serve to protect them form said damage instead. Plus, Temp HP wouldn't penalize War Forged (where as Positive Healing will). Just make the Temp HP scale with Heal Amp or Melee Power.

So could you please for the sake of Barbs staying Barbs....
1. Make the new healing enhancements "Temporary Hit Points" instead.
...

Why the insistence on temporary hit points? How is that a good thing? I just don't get it. Can somebody explain please?

[Cetus]

yeah I highly doubt people will suddenly play healers because a barb is the obvious king of dps. like I said in the post above, im not seeing it for any high dps builds currently. in the end, a barb still needs a defensive boost and a reliable source of self healing. DR that is the best source of a barbs damage mitigation is not getting upgraded and in BYOH DDO you still need to be self sufficient with decent healing or even if there happened to be a healer in the group, you need a good enough healing to stay alive carrying the healers soulstone to the shrine.

We already have an abundance of characters that do amazing damage and are nearly unkillable with their defenses. I can jump around all day self reconing myself on an insanely high DPS toon, or cocooning with high healing amp, or divine crusader consecrate dground heal, whatever. What point is there for barbs to even exist at this point if they aren't decisively doing monster DPS? You'll just merely make them survivable and now we have another character that does amazing damage and survives, which is what pally's have been relegated to doing already.

The only thing i can see for barbs that makes them different and desirable to play is to make them do massive damage, but need to be babysitted.

I would absolutely play a massive damage dealer like that, even though I'll probably die a lot more often. You'll still have a few defensive abilities like uncanny dodge and high healing amp for potions or silver falme pots, but you won't be the bastion of defense like pally's or centered kensei's are. In return, you maul over mobs hopefully before they can kill you.

Also, we need regenerating rages. It is stupid that we don't have this.

[Scrabbler]

You are totally not reading what I am saying. I did not say they provide temporary HP. Add and subtract what you get when you click on the button. I said its like temporary HP.

Clicking on Frenzy, Death Frenzy, or Storm's Eye does not provide temporary hp, healing, maximum hp, Constitution, or anything else that acts like temporary hp.

Not sure if this is important, but the self damage is affected by dungeon scaling.

Yes the Vicious self-damage is affected by dungeon scaling, and it shouldn't be. The concept for Dungeon Scaling is "Because you're alone, the monsters and traps are pretending to be weaker versions". But you yourself shouldn't be scaled weaker or stronger; the costs of your abilities should remain the same, whether it's measured in spellpoints or hitpoints.

Basically a Barbarian player who goes around soloing most of the time and getting Vicioused for 1 point should never face being shocked stepping into a raid and seeing the self-damage double or triple.

Why the insistence on temporary hit points? How is that a good thing? I just don't get it. Can somebody explain please?

People support giving Barbarians temporary hp effects because it's a defense that's similar to healing in some ways, but is not actually healing. Temp hp can never refill you from 80/900 hp, for example. That means it's a feature to make Barbarians more survivable and less dependent on other characters, without changing the underlying theme of which classes get healing or don't.

[FestusHood]

Yes the Vicious self-damage is affected by dungeon scaling, and it shouldn't be. The concept for Dungeon Scaling is "Because you're alone, the monsters and traps are pretending to be weaker versions". But you yourself shouldn't be scaled weaker or stronger; the costs of your abilities should remain the same, whether it's measured in spellpoints or hitpoints.

In the post by Severlin that i quoted, he seemed to be uncertain whether or not increasing the frenzy damage with melee power would unintentionally also increase the self damage. Since the frenzy damage is not affected by dungeon scaling, i was hoping this might provide a clue to finding out whether making one affected by melee power would indirectly cause both to be affected. Course i don't know it it is helpful at all, but i threw it out there in case.

I agree it probably shouldn't be affected by dungeon scaling, but everything that causes damage seems to be. The self damage from activating the twisted talisman is also affected by dungeon scaling.

[Qhualor]

We already have an abundance of characters that do amazing damage and are nearly unkillable with their defenses. I can jump around all day self reconing myself on an insanely high DPS toon, or cocooning with high healing amp, or divine crusader consecrate dground heal, whatever. What point is there for barbs to even exist at this point if they aren't decisively doing monster DPS? You'll just merely make them survivable and now we have another character that does amazing damage and survives, which is what pally's have been relegated to doing already.

The only thing i can see for barbs that makes them different and desirable to play is to make them do massive damage, but need to be babysitted.

I would absolutely play a massive damage dealer like that, even though I'll probably die a lot more often. You'll still have a few defensive abilities like uncanny dodge and high healing amp for potions or silver falme pots, but you won't be the bastion of defense like pally's or centered kensei's are. In return, you maul over mobs hopefully before they can kill you.

Also, we need regenerating rages. It is stupid that we don't have this.

in the simplest way to say it

1. they need reliable self healing via pots. they have pretty much 2 choices, CSW and SF. SF pots already heal my barb for ~700 hp, but they are severely penalizing mainly with the run speed. heal amp needs to be good enough in the trees to be able to heal yourself with CSW for minimum 500 hp in epics. in BYOH DDO im not going to bank on someone in my group that I can trust to throw me a heal. a few years ago it was expected, but not today. now we ask for players to be team players and help a brother out.

2. barb DR is a joke. its supposed to be the best defense at the sacrifice of not having AC or being able to cast defensive spells. good damage mitigation with barb DR to shrug off damage should be adjusted to scale better in the game. this would require less need to boost self healing if done right. thetre have been some good suggestions on how to do this.

A. change current DR to 3 at level 2 and increase every 3 levels thereafter. at level 20 they would have a DR of 21. in heroics that's ok, but in epics that still wouldn't be enough. do the same thing for epics and at level 29 would have a DR of 30. not great mitigation considering EE mobs hit like a truck, but that's why barbs should have high Dodge, click UD every time off timer and boost their DR with Ritual Scarring in Ravager and Damage Reduction in FOTW. not to mention there are items/spells that can be cast on you and whatnot that have blur or displace.

B. while raging, basically the same thing as A, you gain higher DR based on character levels and goes back to normal while not raged.

C. a barbarian keeps fighting while raged even when below 0 hp. his DR is increased and does not die until either the rage is over or hits -100 hp. attach it as a bonus to Diehard and loses the bonus DR when the rage effect is over.

3. barbarian dps does need to be the best for any melee class. it shouldn't be compared to burst dps or insta kill dps, but should be compared to sustainable dps. I look at my barbs dps currently and read the posts from others on here about how they lack dps and just scratch my head. I make casters work for their insta kills and I make burst archers wish their manyshot cooldown would hurry up. I do think they need a boost to dps overall, but I believe the additional melee power in the trees plus being able to stand there and take the hits easier while dpsing down mobs is going to make them even more powerful.

barbarians have always had high dps. its just in a game that evolved into BYOH, they struggled to sustain that dps and the damage mitigation didn't get updated. its still looking like it wont get updated. the armor changes helps along with MRR, but its not enough.