Barbarian - Frenzied Berserker Changes

[Scrabbler]

It's natural that Barbarian would be at (or near) the top for melee DPS, as long as she's still alive and still Raging. But does Barbarian have the features to provide that kind of damage? I'm not seeing it.

Melee damage can come from critical power, attack rate (doublestrike or animation speed), meleepower, mega special attacks, or a bag of passive d6s. What of those do Barbarians get?

• Critical Power: Say about halfsies. Their Critical Rage is about half of what Paladins or Bards get: the +range without +mult... and since crit mult multiplies by crit range, that means more like 25% of the critical power. Focused Wrath is weaker than Crit Rage, and Oath of Destruction is weaker than that. Death Frenzy is similar to Oath of Destruction (although it can be stacked with Crit Rage if you spend mega AP)
  
  
• Attack Speed: Aside from FB's chance for glancing blows, nothing. And I actually like them having no speed: It's a nice theme that Barbs are the melee class that doesn't work on swinging super-fast like everyone else. No designer lazily sprinkling Doublestrike everywhere. They just need to make up for it in other ways.
  
  
• Meleepower: OS t4 has +10 temporary Meleepower. FB has 2 permanent in t3 and 3 temp in t4. Ravager has 10+5 temp in t4. Well, 2-17 Meleepower for 40-50% of the time isn't nothing. Although Paladins are over there with passive 5 Meleepower, alongside their incredible level 4 spells.
  
  
• Passive dice: Well there's 1d6 + 1d6 in Ravager cores. That's not huge, but not nothing.
  
  
• Special Attacks: Aside from Supreme Cleave for AOE crowd killing, nothing strong in that regard. And Supreme Cleave is nothing new (although it doesn't necessarily drain your hp anymore, something that had only bothered lowbies)
  Storm's Eye is somewhat very powerful, but it's late in your career, intentionally limited in usability, and for now it appears to be super-hard to maintain whenever the enemies aren't wimps.
  
  
• Helplessness: Oh I forgot, Ravager Bully is some real DPS too,although it only works on things you can make helpless (which means they're the less dangerous kind of enemy) (For the record, bonus helpless damage should probably be changed to a rating to stack slower...)

Summary: Moderate Crit power, low-medium Meleepower, zero speed bonus, low passive dice, no active attack except AOE. Barbarians aren't great at melee DPS. Maybe they earn Meleepower from every class level, and we just haven't heard about it yet?

[PermaBanned]

It matters if your damage output can cause enough of an impetus for people to start playing healers.

So let me get this straight: If Barbs start doing sufficiently large amounts of DPS - but lack sufficient self sustainability, you'll start playing a healer so other people's Barbs can maintain their DPS? 'Cause if not you, then who?

I think it's possible that Barbs having huge DPS inversely proportional to self sustainability will bring back a few of our absent healers; but I think it's silly to suggest that Barbs having huge DPS while lacking sufficient self sustainability will make the "I like playing high DPS mob killers" suddenly think "Instead of killing things, I want to play the guy healing the guy killing things!"

Who cares if they have self healing right now, when you can just play a pally or even a bladeforged centered kensei and do just as much damage without worrying about any self healing?

The distinguishing factor for a barbarian should be massive damage at the expense of survivability.

^These^ parts I agree with. Barbs need to be doing grossly disgustingly huge amounts of DPS. Ideally, their key "self sustainability" feature should be killing things before those things can kill them - and in highend Epics (especially Elites) this will require ridiculous outgoing damage paired with hefty mitigation.

The best approach (IMO) for tackling Barb self healing is minimizing the need for it.

[Wizza]

Where is the damage? Where are the STR bonuses in the cores? The crit multiplier and crit threat range bonuses? The bleeding damage to the foes on every hit? This tree is nowhere near what I was expecting from a Barb tree. All you did was to change a couple of numbers in existent abilities and call it a day. Where are the fun abilities? Very disappointed with this.

Mostly, WHY ARE THE THREE CAPSTONES IDENTICAL? This is screaming LAZY and UNIMAGINATIVE to me. Same with the Cores, you just added the same cores TO.EVERY.SINGLE.TREE. THE SAME CORES. Now read this again. THE SAME CORES AND THE SAME CAPSTONE TO THREE DIFFERENT TREES.

Also, are you reworking Silver Flame potions as well? Because, you know, it makes absolutely no sense for them to stack up to 10 only. I thought this was a logical FIX but I guess you at Turbine didn't.

[Standal]

Why are barbs getting Heal amp? Damage reduction is a barb's core defensive feature. Unfortunately, when PRR was introduced, Barbs didn't get PRR as a class feature. This should be rectified now. Give barbs 10 PRR per point of DR. Since the abomination that is MRR exists, give them 10 MRR per point of DR also. That will produce an incentive to play barbs. Heal amp was never my problem. I could slot 10/20/30 and make any healer happy. No heal amp will make make CSW pots a viable in combat option. 10/20/30 gives SF pots excellent HP healing, but -10 to all stats and slow for the Greaters is a huge penalty.

[wodkaman]

i dont mind the idea of raising heal amp but how is that going to keep a barbarian alive?
and not only are they bad to "self heal" but also the saves on a barbarian arent that good
and need to swap stat points all over the place to even get a lil bit of saves,
my idea is to add a feat or something in the anhencement tree to add con or str mod
(yes a real barbarian needy stat!) to reflex saves or half of the str/con mod to all saves
as a pure barbarian (or 18 levels in barbarian)

[A-O]

A pure paladin with kotc is about 15% ahead of a barb in DPS with 40+ points in FB and 30+ points in Ravager (tier 5 in ravager, capstone from FB), and that's with 25 damage from Eye of the storm.

Quoted for emphasis.

Right now, barbs lack *damage*, big time.

[CaptainSpacePony]

It's natural that Barbarian would be at (or near) the top for melee DPS, as long as she's still alive and still Raging. But does Barbarian have the features to provide that kind of damage? I'm not seeing it.

Melee damage can come from critical power, attack rate (doublestrike or animation speed), meleepower, mega special attacks, or a bag of passive d6s. What of those do Barbarians get?

• Critical Power: Say about halfsies. Their Critical Rage is about half of what Paladins or Bards get: the +range without +mult... and since crit mult multiplies by crit range, that means more like 25% of the critical power. Focused Wrath is weaker than Crit Rage, and Oath of Destruction is weaker than that. Death Frenzy is similar to Oath of Destruction (although it can be stacked with Crit Rage if you spend mega AP)
  
  
• Attack Speed: Aside from FB's chance for glancing blows, nothing. And I actually like them having no speed: It's a nice theme that Barbs are the melee class that doesn't work on swinging super-fast like everyone else. No designer lazily sprinkling Doublestrike everywhere. They just need to make up for it in other ways.
  
  
• Meleepower: OS t4 has +10 temporary Meleepower. FB has 2 permanent in t3 and 3 temp in t4. Ravager has 10+5 temp in t4. Well, 2-17 Meleepower for 40-50% of the time isn't nothing. Although Paladins are over there with passive 5 Meleepower, alongside their incredible level 4 spells.
  
  
• Passive dice: Well there's 1d6 + 1d6 in Ravager cores. That's not huge, but not nothing.
  
  
• Special Attacks: Aside from Supreme Cleave for AOE crowd killing, nothing strong in that regard. And Supreme Cleave is nothing new (although it doesn't necessarily drain your hp anymore, something that had only bothered lowbies)
  Storm's Eye is somewhat very powerful, but it's late in your career, intentionally limited in usability, and for now it appears to be super-hard to maintain whenever the enemies aren't wimps.
  
  
• Helplessness: Oh I forgot, Ravager Bully is some real DPS too,although it only works on things you can make helpless (which means they're the less dangerous kind of enemy) (For the record, bonus helpless damage should probably be changed to a rating to stack slower...)

Summary: Moderate Crit power, low-medium Meleepower, zero speed bonus, low passive dice, no active attack except AOE. Barbarians aren't great at melee DPS. Maybe they earn Meleepower from every class level, and we just haven't heard about it yet?

Once again, I completely agree w/Scrabbler.

Barbarian used to be my favorite class - the concept that you gave up self-sufficiency for pure raging DPS.
>snip<

Great write up, DG

[Tesrali]

I see your point. I will bring this up with the team.

Sev~

I think that the current capstone provides a challenge, and is awesome. Mechanics that reward the players if they focus on them is a blessing to the game. Point in case is the old blitz mechanic of "get kills for massive damage boost."

Instead of making an ability like this easier to use, lets make it more useful for the player that can use it well. I would love to see this stack up to 50. If you can keep this up for 5 minutes on a barbarian in epic elite, maybe you deserve +50 damage.


Some notes though:

as it currently stands the ability can be meta'd. When you step into a quest you'd just go afk for a couple minutes and come back with a +25 damage buff. In epic hards, the ability would be power creep. These aren't terrible drawbacks though.

[jalont]

It matters if your damage output can cause enough of an impetus for people to start playing healers. Who cares if they have self healing right now, when you can just play a pally or even a bladeforged centered kensei and do just as much damage without worrying about any self healing?

I disagree that anyone will ever be playing a "healer" again. DDO is a different game now. It's tremendously easy and no one will take on a healer role just to pull a barbarian through. They'll simply solo it and take the ten second quest time increase.

[Qhualor]

I disagree that anyone will ever be playing a "healer" again. DDO is a different game now. It's tremendously easy and no one will take on a healer role just to pull a barbarian through. They'll simply solo it and take the ten second quest time increase.

yeah I don't see anyone suddenly going back to healing mode whenever they see a barbarian in a group no matter what their dps is. I didn't see anyone keeping the old Blitzer alive while he "soloed" quests or the Monkchers or Shiradis or any other high dps builds. I think some people are living in a dream if they think healers will come back and play that role for barbs again.

[Qhualor]

It matters if your damage output can cause enough of an impetus for people to start playing healers. Who cares if they have self healing right now, when you can just play a pally or even a bladeforged centered kensei and do just as much damage without worrying about any self healing?

The distinguishing factor for a barbarian should be massive damage at the expense of survivability.

yeah I highly doubt people will suddenly play healers because a barb is the obvious king of dps. like I said in the post above, im not seeing it for any high dps builds currently. in the end, a barb still needs a defensive boost and a reliable source of self healing. DR that is the best source of a barbs damage mitigation is not getting upgraded and in BYOH DDO you still need to be self sufficient with decent healing or even if there happened to be a healer in the group, you need a good enough healing to stay alive carrying the healers soulstone to the shrine.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

it has been made abundantly clear to me that you all at turbine are either incapable or unwilling to make useful adjustments to barbs in order to make them a competitive class.

hp and hamp arent actual defensive stats, and wont change the *rate* at which you take damage. this "buffs" you are making to the cores will keep barbs as squishy as they are now.


the only good thing im seeing from this failapalooza is that barbs wont be turning into the next fotm build.


what barbs really need:
more dps in the form of mp scaling with frenzies, additional crit multipliers on 19-20, temp mp effects that have a halfway decent uptime like the ones in kotc and vanguard...mp in the capstone/s, additional str. do not add dps via double strike or attack speed or crit range or anything along those lines, not consistent with the flavor and style of barb dps.

more *stacking* temp hp *procs*, increase prr and dr while raging.

[FranOhmsford]

I honestly cannot believe how bad this is:

Greetings!

This is the first in a series of posts outlining our plans for the update to Barbarians. The design behind these changes is that Barbarian DPS is largely in a good state, but they lack mitigation and healers don't like that they take so much healing. The idea behind these changes is to make Barbarians tougher through sheer hit point bonuses, give them enough healing amplification so healing them doesn't feel like a healing sink, and adding 5th tier healing to help sustain them during dungeons.

Why are the three Barb Trees being given almost exactly the same HP and Heal Amp bonuses?

Why are the Rage boosts still spread throughout the three Trees?

Why are you trying to get us to play "Generic" characters rather than "Prestige" characters?
I'll explain this one:
When I complained about the Archmage Tree straight after the enhancement pass I was literally told to take Zombie Form - There's a thread on the forums today by someone else complaining about the Archmage Tree and yet again he gets told to spend points in PM!
We don't all want to be FORCED into being UNDEAD!
Now to Barbs:
The Three Trees should be significantly different!
It should of course be possible to build a viable Barbarian using bits of each Tree BUT the "Prestiges" themselves should be much more Unique!

Here are the proposed changes for Barbarian's Frenzied Berserker tree for Update 24.

(If you see "---" that means text was removed; likely a penalty or condition.)



Core abilities

Die Hard: (1 AP, Barbarian Level 1). You gain the Die Hard feat, and automatically stabilize when incapacitated.

Toughness: (1 AP, Barbarian Level 3). +20 hit points, and +10 healing amplification.

Frenzy: (1 AP, Barbarian Level 6). Activation Cost: 10 Hit Points. Cooldown: 30 seconds. Enter a frenzy, increasing your strength by +2 and adding Vicious to your melee weapons. You gain +30 hit points and +10 healing amplification.

Toughness: (1 AP, Barbarian Level 12). You gain 10 Physical Resist Rating. You gain +60 hit points and +20 healing amplification.

Death Frenzy: (1 AP, Barbarian Level 18). Activation Cost: 20 Hit Points. Cooldown: 30 seconds. Expend 20 hit points to enter a Death Frenzy for one minute. You gain 4 strength. You increase your crit multiplier by an additional 1 when raging. Your melee weapons gain 'Greater Vicious'.(+4d6 damage to your attacks while dealing 1d3 damage to yourself per attack.) Passive: You gain +100 hit points and +20 healing amplification.

Storm’s Eye: (1 AP, Barbarian Level 20). Activate: You gain +1 melee damage. --- This damage bonus gains one stack every six seconds, up to 25 stacks. This ends when you are below 50% health. Activation Cost: 100 Hit Points. Cooldown: 3 minutes. Passive: You gain +4 Constitution. You gain +150 hit points and +40 healing amplification.

Die Hard: A feat literally no-one other than the newest newbie ever takes as mobs have the really annoying habit of applying a Coup de Grace!

Toughness/Frenzy/Toughness/Death Frenzy: Fair Enough

Storm's Eye: Keep the 50% Health disclaimer but remove the Activation Cost

Tier One

Extra Rage: (1/1/1 AP). +1/+2/+3 Rage use per rest

Cracking Attack: Melee Attack: Deals +1/+2/+3[W] extra damage. Damaging enemies reduces their AC by -1/-2/-3 for 20 seconds. ---(Activation Cost: 5 Hit Points. Cooldown: 30 seconds)

Die Harder: Your range of unconsciousness extends +5/+10/+15 HP. When you drop below 1 health, you gain 10/20/30 temp hitpoints. This can only trigger once every five minutes.

Power Rage: +1/+2/+3 Strength --- while raging

Athletics: +1/+2/+3 Balance, Jump, Swim. Rank 3: When you activate Barbarian Rage, you gain +35% Action Boost bonus to movement speed for 20 seconds.

Extra Rage/Power Rage: Same as before.

Cracking Attack: Utterly Useless!

Die Harder: Minimal - Waste of AP.

Athletics: Worthless - Another waste of AP.

Tier Two (Requires Barbarian Level 2, 5 APs spent in tree)

Angry Arms: (Requires: Two Handed Fighting, 1/1/1 AP) +1%/+2%/+3% chance of triggering weapon effects on glancing blows and +3%/+4%/+5% glancing blow damage.

Body Blow: (1/1/1 AP) Damaging enemies with Cracking Attack reduces their Fortitude saving throws by 1/2/3 for 20 seconds.

Blood Tribute: (1/1/1 AP) Gain +50/+100/+150 Temporary Health for one minute. This scales with 400% Melee Power. You have a stacking -1 penalty to constitution until you rest or die. (Cooldown: 3 seconds)

Extra Action Boost: (1/1/1 AP) +1/+2/+3 additional Action Boost use per rest.

Sprint Boost: (1/1/1 AP) +35%/40%/50% Action Boost bonus to movement speed for 20 seconds. Cooldown: 30 seconds.

Angry Arms: Sounds good to me

Body Blow: Still Useless.

Blood Tribute: Lose the stacking Con penalty please!

Extra Action Boost: Another Waste of AP.

Sprint Boost: This should be Tier 1!

Tier Three (Requires Barbarian Level 3, 10 APs spent in tree)

Mad Munitions: (1/1/1 AP, Requires: Greater Two Handed Fighting, Angry Arms) +1%/+2%/+3% chance of triggering weapon effects on glancing blows and +3%/+4%/+5% glancing blow damage


Blood Trail: (2 AP, Requires: Blood Tribute, Supreme Cleave) Supreme Cleave no longer has a hit point cost. You gain 2 Melee Power.

Supreme Cleave: (1/1/1 AP) Tactical Melee Cleave: Expend 10 hit points to activate this ability to attack enemies around you. This attack deals +1/+2/+3[W] damage. (Activation Cost: 10 Hit Points, affected by Dungeon Scaling. Cooldown: 9/6/3 seconds)

Strength/Constitution: (2 AP) +1 Strength or Constitution

Overall Seems good but I'm not sure I'd bother with Blood Trail for a measly 2 melee power.

Tier Four (Requires Barbarian Level 4, 20 APs spent in tree)

Crazy Strike: (1/1/1 AP, Requires: Body Blow) When you score a --- hit with Cracking Attack, for 12 seconds you gain +0.3/+0,6/+1[W] damage and 1/2/3 Melee Power.

Exhausting Blow: (1/1/1 AP) Melee Attack: Deals +2/+3/+4[W], 1d6/2d6/3d6 Strength, and 1d6/2d6/3d6 Dexterity damage. (Cooldown: 20 seconds)

Wade In: (1/1/1 AP, Requires: Supreme Cleave) When you Supreme Cleave, you gain +1 Primal bonus to Attack --- per enemy damaged, up to 3/6/10 maximum. Lasts for 4 seconds.

Strength/Constitution: (2 AP) +1 Strength or Constitution

Crazy Strike: OK so Cracking Attack finally gets something vaguely worthwhile - Lot of AP spent though for a non-cleave attack.

Exhausting Blow: Sounds good but not sure how good it will actually be

Wade In: Complete Waste of AP!

Strength/Con: Obvious Stat Boosts.

Tier Five (Requires Barbarian Level 5, Character Level 12, 30 APs spent in tree)

Focus Wide: (2 AP, Requires: Mad Munitions) When you score a vorpal hit, you increase your chance of triggering weapon effects with glancing blows by +10% and gain +10% glancing blow damage for 12 seconds.

Focused Wrath: (2/2 AP) While raging, increases the critical multiplier of all weapons you use by 1/2 when you roll a natural 19 or 20 that is a confirmed crit hit.

Lash Out: (1/1/1 AP) Supreme Cleave has a 50%/75%/82% chance to cause bleeding to damaged enemies, inflicting up to 1/2/3 stacks. This can stack up to 5 times. Your Supreme Cleave also reduces the AC of enemies by 1/2/3 for six seconds. This stacks up to five times.

Accelerated Metabolism: (2 AP) While raging you heal 2d6 hit points every 4 seconds. This healing scales with 100% Melee Power.

Tantrum: (2 AP) Tactical Melee Cleave: Expend 25 hit points to activate this ability and attack enemies around you. This deals +5[W] damage and has a 50% to knock down each damage enemy briefly on a failed Fortitude save vs. 10 + Strength modifier + Barbarian Level. Abilities that trigger on Supreme Cleave also trigger on Tantrum. (Blood Trail, Wade In, Lash Out, Sundering Spin, Storm's Eye)

That's a lot of Tier 5s!

Very costly to get to them though!

This Tree is Top-Heavy in the extreme!

And it has way too many AP taxes and enhancements that no-one would bother with otherwise!

[FranOhmsford]

I'd like to make a suggestion regarding HP/Heal Amp changes:

Keep these in Occult Slayer but change:

Frenzied Berserker to Massive Melee Power Boosts at least twice that of any other class!

And

Ravager to PRR and DR boosts at least equal to those of Stalwarts!


This way we can CHOOSE to play a "Generic" Barbarian with a little of each.
OR
We can specialize in one Tree and get a huge amount of one!

[Qhualor]

I honestly cannot believe how bad this is:



Why are the three Barb Trees being given almost exactly the same HP and Heal Amp bonuses?

Why are the Rage boosts still spread throughout the three Trees?

Why are you trying to get us to play "Generic" characters rather than "Prestige" characters?
I'll explain this one:
When I complained about the Archmage Tree straight after the enhancement pass I was literally told to take Zombie Form - There's a thread on the forums today by someone else complaining about the Archmage Tree and yet again he gets told to spend points in PM!
We don't all want to be FORCED into being UNDEAD!
Now to Barbs:
The Three Trees should be significantly different!
It should of course be possible to build a viable Barbarian using bits of each Tree BUT the "Prestiges" themselves should be much more Unique!




Die Hard: A feat literally no-one other than the newest newbie ever takes as mobs have the really annoying habit of applying a Coup de Grace!

Toughness/Frenzy/Toughness/Death Frenzy: Fair Enough

Storm's Eye: Keep the 50% Health disclaimer but remove the Activation Cost



Extra Rage/Power Rage: Same as before.

Cracking Attack: Utterly Useless!

Die Harder: Minimal - Waste of AP.

Athletics: Worthless - Another waste of AP.



Angry Arms: Sounds good to me

Body Blow: Still Useless.

Blood Tribute: Lose the stacking Con penalty please!

Extra Action Boost: Another Waste of AP.

Sprint Boost: This should be Tier 1!




Overall Seems good but I'm not sure I'd bother with Blood Trail for a measly 2 melee power.



Crazy Strike: OK so Cracking Attack finally gets something vaguely worthwhile - Lot of AP spent though for a non-cleave attack.

Exhausting Blow: Sounds good but not sure how good it will actually be

Wade In: Complete Waste of AP!

Strength/Con: Obvious Stat Boosts.




That's a lot of Tier 5s!

Very costly to get to them though!

This Tree is Top-Heavy in the extreme!

And it has way too many AP taxes and enhancements that no-one would bother with otherwise!

what was once class abilities, are now spread out through trees. its no different with any other class. this is why we should have class trees.

im not seeing "generic" in the trees. all 3 are unique and not the same.

if you do the math you get about ~70 temporary hp when activating Storms Eye.

Cracking Attack is half useless. you take it for the extra (W) damage and as a pre-requisite for the other enhancements.

Athletics is half useless. you max it out for the movement speed bonus. its the only reason to take it.

the -1 to Con is unnoticeable. with all the extra hp we will be getting it will be negligible. its now going to have 400% MP which is a huge boost plus getting temporary hp that will offset the -1 to Con. make it -2 to Con and I wouldn't care.

Extra Action boosts a waste of AP? have to be kidding me.

Sprint Boost Tier 1 for the low hanging fruit?

Exhausting Blow isn't very good for epics. ability damage to mobs is unnoticeable and epic DW and all.

there are a few that needs to be better, but overall the tree got a big boost. have to wait till Lama to see how good though.

[Qhualor]

I'd like to make a suggestion regarding HP/Heal Amp changes:

Keep these in Occult Slayer but change:

Frenzied Berserker to Massive Melee Power Boosts at least twice that of any other class!

And

Ravager to PRR and DR boosts at least equal to those of Stalwarts!


This way we can CHOOSE to play a "Generic" Barbarian with a little of each.
OR
We can specialize in one Tree and get a huge amount of one!

yes, this is how it should be but even if you focus on 1 tree you are still going to want to dip into the other 2 for the extra boosts. really, barb DR across the board needs a boost regardless, but it could be more improved adding it to the cores in the Ravager tree. however, unless barbs in all trees get a significant boost in self sufficiency, there wont be much of a change as it is now in game. still wouldn't be a class people would want to play if they are still having trouble staying alive with 40 hp CSW pots or SF penalty pots.

[Wulverine]

Some classes/builds should just work better in a team based gameplay group.
The option to play as such should at the very least *be there*. Trust me, there's plenty of endgame players who love to see more of this. Some of them are posting in this very thread, saying so.

Do you honestly disagree with this?

Like some have already suggested, diversifying the trees into at least a proper DPS tree (and by proper i mean at least 25-30% more than a paladin, probably much more though), and more of a defense tree should work well. Also, like some people have suggested, Barbarian defense should be increased by giving them more/Better ways to mitigate/absorb damage, rather than outright healing it.

[jalont]

Some classes/builds should just work better in a team based gameplay group.
The option to play as such should at the very least *be there*. Trust me, there's plenty of endgame players who love to see more of this. Some of them are posting in this very thread, saying so.

Do you honestly disagree with this?

Like some have already suggested, diversifying the trees into at least a proper DPS tree (and by proper i mean at least 25-30% more than a paladin, probably much more though), and more of a defense tree should work well. Also, like some people have suggested, Barbarian defense should be increased by giving them more/Better ways to mitigate/absorb damage, rather than outright healing it.

They all want to be the barb, not the healer.

[Wulverine]

They all want to be the barb, not the healer.

You're wrong. Simple as that. On Thelanis I can give you a list of names of endgame people that are currently actively playing that have healers as either their main, or as a currently shelved character waiting to play it again. I'm willing to bet that any endgame guild on any server has these people.

[jalont]

You're wrong. Simple as that. On Thelanis I can give you a list of names of endgame people that are currently actively playing that have healers as either their main, or as a currently shelved character waiting to play it again. I'm willing to bet that any endgame guild on any server has these people.

They can always bust them out now then.... Having a dedicate healer now still diminishes completion time, probably right around the same amount as having a dedicated healer following around a middle of the pack dps barb will.