Barbarian - Frenzied Berserker Changes

[Trillea]

What's next? Do we suppose that a future pass will teach Fighters to heal themselves through swinging attacks too?

I could see them adding some sort of healing-ki-like function into Kensai. I would however make it have an antirequisite of fists of darkness so you can't have both at the same time.

[Vellrad]

Barbs shouldn't have better self-healing than any other class much less better than paladins and monks I still feel barb shouldn't get ANY self heal and be damage sinks and dealers. I absolutely hate this

Yes absolutely, barbs should be class that is designed purely and only for EN or below content.

/sarcasm

[Wulverine]

Barbarians cannot compete, and should not compete with classes like the Paladin or a Ranger, for instance. They really should be the king of melee DPS. And that should come with some downsides, in this case severely reduced selfhealing. That is what separates them, and what makes them unique to play.

As these tree's stand now, the DPS gain is not enough compared to Paladin (and probably Fighter/Rogue's when they get their pass).

Barbs could do five times more DPS than the next best class, and they would still be useless without push button self healing. There is no place to get healing, other than from yourself. If you can't get healing from yourself, you lives as long as your hp lasts. It's that simple.

You can turn this around as well. I don't play my healer because he doesn't contribute much in a quest where everyone is a self healing dps class (which you apparently want to turn a barbarian into as well). If the barbarian's dps was so good, that it would warrant bringing a support class as well, this would be good for the grouping aspect of the game and would maybe see more people playing their support characters again.

[Ganak]

We don't necessarily want potions to be more effective for other classes.

Sev~

After Barbs, Rogue's, Fighters, Fleshy/non-PM arcane and Monks--are the classes needing a boost to self-healing.

Left behind like the ranged...*sniff




Also, why not introduce Cure Critical Wound potions?

[axel15810]

Love love love the proposal devs.

I'm not going to go into tons of detail but I will say that I am extremely relieved that you are keeping barbarians true to their class and not giving them a easy button self-healing option. I really like the idea of giving barbs a slow regen. That will allow them to not need out of combat healing, but they will still need support from others while in combat - a fair trade off considering this tree will be heads above all others in melee DPS.

Allowing rage to continue to prevent healing will ensure barbs stay unique as a class and not become too similar to fighters. Barbs at their core has been a class which is high DPS, low survivability class and it should stay that way. Awesome jobs devs.

As someone who plays clerics almost exclusive, I'm relieved that healing a barb will be WORTH IT again! Glad to see we'll finally have an alternative playstyle to BYOH in DDO again.

[Wulverine]

considering this tree will be heads above all others in melee DPS.

How do you figure? What major DPS boosts did you see?

[PermaBanned]

Is DDO a single player game now?

Let's make all classes average DPS and average self-heals, that will keep them special. /sarcasm

Barbs should be the king of DPS and with low to none self-heals.

I agree the Barb class should provide little in the way of self heals, and what self heals office get should be flavorful like the Druid's pet enhancement where it recovers HP by feeding on it's victims - I'd love that (or something similar) on a Barb!

Where Barbs really run into trouble is unlike EVERY OTHER CLASS they really have very few options to multiclass for self healing - most of it is mana based/SLA kinds of things Raging Barbs (and thus basically all Barbs) can't use.

I'm not thrilled with the solo centric self sufficient turn the game took years ago, but it did. Most groups are self sufficient, and Barbs need an option to effectively be played in that environment.

[depositbox]

As someone who plays clerics almost exclusive, I'm relieved that healing a barb will be WORTH IT again! Glad to see we'll finally have an alternative playstyle to BYOH in DDO again.

I dont see how.

[Wulverine]

Most groups are self sufficient, and Barbs need an option to effectively be played in that environment.

Why?

I'd rather see the (pure, or mostly pure) Barbarian class only played by a small minority who would enjoy it for the unique gameplay style that it offers and have the opportunity to run in groups where that playstyle would shine, than see it being turned into another selfhealing class, that will be less powerful overall compared to a paladin anyway, just to appease the masses and promote solo playstyles even more.

Keep in mind you can already make selfhealing barbarians using for instance Ameliorating Strikes, so there are options to effectively play in the environment you're referring to.

[Uska]

yes absolutely, barbs should be class that is designed purely and only for en or below content.

/sarcasm

no healing

[Qhualor]

Uhm, Frenzy in PnP does no damage to yourself, but causes a 5% chance you will kill a party member instead of the monster.

every source I looked up says the same thing. I found one with an actual description http://dndtools.eu/classes/frenzied-berserker/

Frenzy (Ex): A frenzied berserker can enter a frenzy during combat. While frenzied, she gains a +6 bonus to Strength and, if she makes a full attack action, gains a single extra attack each round at her highest bonus. (This latter effect is not cumulative with haste or other effects that grant additional attacks.) However, she also takes a —4 penalty to Armor Class and takes 2 points of nonlethal damage per round. A frenzy lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the frenzied berserker's Constitution modifier. To end the frenzy before its duration expires, the character may attempt a DC 20 Will save once per round as a free action. Success ends the frenzy immediately; failure means it continues. The effects of frenzy stack with those from any rage ability the character may have.

[HatsuharuZ]

I like how the tree makes barbarians a bit more self-sufficient. I think you may be giving too much HP in the core abilities, but that's all I can say.

I don't really understand comments about the changes not being "appropriate".... is there some rulebook somewhere I haven't read yet?

[Qhualor]

Keep in mind you can already make selfhealing barbarians using for instance Ameliorating Strikes, so there are options to effectively play in the environment you're referring to.

that's a workaround build. barbarians can also self heal with heal scrolls but not rage at a big loss to dps.

people don't play them because of the lack of self sufficiency and defense. right now, they appear to be the least played class when they used to be one of the highest played class. the game grew and allowed for other builds to be better at self sufficiency and defense, while the barbarian went backwards. barbarians are still king of dps, but that's not enough reason to get people to play them. they need to be able to self heal in a BYOH game decently or they just don't get played much.

[CaptainSpacePony]

Greetings!
The design behind these changes is that Barbarian DPS is largely in a good state, but they lack mitigation and healers don't like that they take so much healing.
Sev~

Thanks for stating this up front but I fear I disagree regarding Barb DPS in Epic content. Since the frenzies don't scale at epic levels (melee power and ED crits) 6d6 is about a flat 22 pts/ hit which, while not insignificant is not especially impressive, especially considering all the opportunity costs of being a barb.

Based on an initial read, I am afraid I missed the mitigation in the tree. I saw more HP and Hamp--both welcome additions, but not much else.

[Wulverine]

that's a workaround build. barbarians can also self heal with heal scrolls but not rage at a big loss to dps.

people don't play them because of the lack of self sufficiency and defense. right now, they appear to be the least played class when they used to be one of the highest played class. the game grew and allowed for other builds to be better at self sufficiency and defense, while the barbarian went backwards. barbarians are still king of dps, but that's not enough reason to get people to play them. they need to be able to self heal in a BYOH game decently or they just don't get played much.

And what would be the problem with them not being played much in a BYOH game? If your answer is "why have them in the game then?" then what would be the point of them being turned into a lesser version of existing classes/builds where they won't get played either?

Also, I have some serious doubts about them being called king of dps (melee) right now.

[CaptainSpacePony]

Of course the passive bonuses are good, and the active portion of Storm's Eye isn't intensely stupid like it was before.

But there's still a serious drawback to the active Storm's Eye: it turns off when you go below 50% health, and it is completely normal to wait until a Barb is under 50% hp before healing him. Yes, there are ways to work around it and ask other players to try concentrating on keeping you above half health, but I strongly suggest looking for some other condition that can end Storm's Eye.

It's also working against HOrc core enhancements which is usually labeled "not fun".

In other news: Die harder, Cracking Attack,Body blow, and abilities that affect to hit by small amounts are really bad.

(For those that don't understand the complex AC/to hit formulas, a VERY simple estimate is each +/-1 "might" affect hit chances by about 1%.)

Accelerated metabolism is cute and probably appropriate--let's see--7hp/4 sec w/100 MP and 200 HAmp is about 10hp/second (42/4seconds). Not enough to keep you alive when the heat is on, but worth 2 AP. Not sure where I stand on the idea of giving barbs self heals at all though...

Considering the huge boost that the bard and paladin overhauls gave, I am more than a little surprised to see there was no effort to restore this iconic frenzies of this prestige to their former, pre-U14 glory. A few dice of non-scaling, non-crit, untyped damage is underwhelming once you move beyond heroic mobs. I had expected to see the frenzies greatly affected by MP or even changed to additional damage instead of untyped (so they would be crit-eligible).

[Qhualor]

And what would be the problem with them not being played much in a BYOH game? If your answer is "why have them in the game then?" then what would be the point of them being turned into a lesser version of existing classes/builds where they won't get played either?

Also, I have some serious doubts about them being called king of dps (melee) right now.

why do you want them to be played very little? that whole line of questioning sounds pretty silly to me. every class should be balanced against the game making every class a viable choice.

my doubts with barbs being kings are only with the people building self sufficient barbs that can umd and dismiss rage so easily. I haven't seen a FB in game in months. they are mostly OS or some multi classed build for Maddmatts ameliorating strike barb build or ranger levels. when they are built as an actual dps class and played like one, they are king. I have 2 like that.

[jalont]

no healing

You should have been out front years ago when DDO was becoming a BYOH game. That ship has sailed. Every class in the game, except for barbs, can self heal. Every.single.one. Including all the caster classes that will always outdps a barb.

If you want to keep the barb flavor, fine. BUt why are we wasting dev time on it? Without self healing, no one will play barbs. Period.

[Wulverine]

why do you want them to be played very little? that whole line of questioning sounds pretty silly to me. every class should be balanced against the game making every class a viable choice.

I don't *want* them to be played very little. But there are still people (not talking about myself, to be clear) who enjoy NOT playing solo selfhealing zerg dps builds. I'd rather not alienate them even further than they already are.

every class should be balanced against the game making every class a viable choice.

Not every class should be an *equally* viable choice for every playstyle (such as BYOH). Even if it is the majority playstyle right now.

(This coming from someone who plays byoh exclusively right now)

Edited for clarity.

[jalont]

why do you want them to be played very little? that whole line of questioning sounds pretty silly to me. every class should be balanced against the game making every class a viable choice.

my doubts with barbs being kings are only with the people building self sufficient barbs that can umd and dismiss rage so easily. I haven't seen a FB in game in months. they are mostly OS or some multi classed build for Maddmatts ameliorating strike barb build or ranger levels. when they are built as an actual dps class and played like one, they are king. I have 2 like that.

How do you get from shrine to shrine? I don't understand.