Barbarian - Frenzied Berserker Changes

[Scrabbler]

The problem with Barb's is still rage:

Benefit (11 barb):
+6 STR and CON

Rage has way way more benefits than that. The stat bonuses are higher, you get increased critical and healing effects, etc. Those basic stat bonuses are NOT the reason to use Rage.

[Qhualor]

The problem with Barb's is still rage:

Benefit (11 barb):
+6 STR and CON

Drawbacks:
Can not cast anything, heal self, use clickies like displacement, cocoon or heal scrolls or otherwise use many of the best things in the game. limited duration and uses and Fatigue.

Now lets compare Rage to similar self buffing:

Sacred/Stalwart Defensive Stance: +6 STR +6 CON no draw backs, includes many other benefits
Divine Might: better damage no con bonus, no drawbacks
Know the angels: better damage, no con bonus, no drawbacks
Power surge: better damage (8 STR) no con bonus, no drawbacks
Primal Scream: +5 STR and CON, no drawbacks

Clearly rage is the problem, you pay a MASSIVE opportunity cost of having terrible survival, self healing, hugely inconvenient (I can't help the group by UMD'ing raise dead, or restoration scrolls) and frankly not as good DPS as much more survivable classes. So being that you wont remove the drawbacks you must make Rage actually good enough to make the drawbacks worthy of putting up with. I would suggest 12 STR and CON and +1 Multiplier on all crits as a starting point, that actually gets close to compensating for being so helpless and useless. Or a combination of relaxing the drawbacks and improving the effect. Such as "spells/clickies/scrolls below 3rd Spell level allowed, +8 STR and CON" Otherwise: no thanks, I'll play a better DPS build that doesn't have the drawbacks.

I never complained I couldn't cast as a barbarian and never felt useless. Quite surprised this was brought up so late in the thread. If I'm raged and party members are dying I either wait until the mobs are dead to use a raise dead clicky or grab stones and run them to a shrine. Rage is not the problem.

[Skeen]

The problem with Barb's is still rage:

Benefit (11 barb):
+6 STR and CON

Drawbacks:
Can not cast anything, heal self, use clickies like displacement, cocoon or heal scrolls or otherwise use many of the best things in the game. limited duration and uses and Fatigue.

Now lets compare Rage to similar self buffing:

Sacred/Stalwart Defensive Stance: +6 STR +6 CON no draw backs, includes many other benefits
Divine Might: better damage no con bonus, no drawbacks
Know the angels: better damage, no con bonus, no drawbacks
Power surge: better damage (8 STR) no con bonus, no drawbacks
Primal Scream: +5 STR and CON, no drawbacks

Clearly rage is the problem, you pay a MASSIVE opportunity cost of having terrible survival, self healing, hugely inconvenient (I can't help the group by UMD'ing raise dead, or restoration scrolls) and frankly not as good DPS as much more survivable classes. So being that you wont remove the drawbacks you must make Rage actually good enough to make the drawbacks worthy of putting up with. I would suggest 12 STR and CON and +1 Multiplier on all crits as a starting point, that actually gets close to compensating for being so helpless and useless. Or a combination of relaxing the drawbacks and improving the effect. Such as "spells/clickies/scrolls below 3rd Spell level allowed, +8 STR and CON" Otherwise: no thanks, I'll play a better DPS build that doesn't have the drawbacks.

Exactly! More Barb goodness given away to other classes except without the negative attributes associated with Barbarian rage. By giving this away to other classes it indirectly nerfs Barbs. Yes, Barb rage offers other benefits not mentioned, IF you take those enhancements. Rage should be beefed up so its special again like it originally was and not partially unwanted like it is now. I wouldn't mind seeing +12 Str and Con or at least make Barb rage behave like the rage knockoffs.

[96th_Malice]

Maybe it's just me .... And if it is that's fine .... But any of my 25 archers .... Especially the Barbarian build would like to see some of these changes applied to RANGED combat as well.

[maddong]

I have previously called for nerfs in other things but I'm not sure you have buffed barbarians enough (given their lack of reconstruct/cocoon).

I think if you took something that was roughly equal to a paladin or bard then added the +25 melee power/400 damage on 20's (due to lack of reconstruct/cocoon) then you are probably talking.

Compared to what you get with /3 bard or /14 paladin it seems that the barbarian tier 5s are roughly equal to the + threat from those options.

But +1 crit mult is worth a 40% pre crit damage increase (assuming a 13-20 crit range eventually)... the equivalent would be +4 crit mult on 19-20. So if you are not trying to lead a barbarian to any specific weapon then you probably need to throw in a much higher + crit mult on 19-20.

I would suggest spreading it around so that every barbarian isn't required to play a frenzied berserker.

Maybe death frenzy stays at +1 crit mult on 19-20.
All level 18 barbarians get +1 crit mult on 19-20.
All level 20 barbarians get +2 crit mult on 19-20.

That way if someone ignores frenzied berserker (ie they lose +1 crit mult 19-20, +25 melee power, and 400 on a 20) they can at least do pretty comparable damage to a paladin or bard....

[Hawkwier]

I'm getting pretty sick of this...

NOTHING done to sort out the risible barb DR.
NO addressing the proxy nerf to rage by power creep in other classes.
STILL no clear DPS differential between barbs and pallies/bards who enjoy clear differentials in other game-critical areas.

You are getting ONE chance to fix barbs.

If you can't or won't address ALL of the above. You come up short. You fail.

I'm sticking with my barb, for now, more out of hope than expectation you are at all serious in fixing the GLARING issues that barbs have.

Honestly. This isn't difficult. It's blooming obvious. Why such a half hearted approach?

Sort it out or you might as well retire the class.

I've played my barb for 4 years, and don't want to have to LR him into a bard to cure his lameness.

But I'm frankly beyond shock and disappointment, and simply fed up with the myopia on display now. So if you can't sort things properly by U24. I'm gonna go grab a lute. And if it turns out I don't like that, I'll call it a day.

At least you'll be able to console yourselves with the fact that you will only have wasted a few months trying and failing to fix barbs - whilst some of us will have wasted years waiting for you to succeed.

But no longer. Enough is enough.

[MangLord]

I have to agree. From what I tested out on Lamm, I'd still much much rather play my Swashbuckler or pure Dwarf Vanguard Paladin. Heck, my pure Elf Ranger or pure WF Artificer still leaves barbarian in the dust, and I consider my Arty repeater/rune-arm build pretty weak for high level EH. On my swashbuckler, I can easily synergize in two levels of rogue for evasion (which works fantastically on a DEX build) and a few fighter levels to round out choice feats. As a bard, I can act as a party buff by topping off hastes and playing songs while in combat and become darn near unkillable when I have displacement going, which helps me when I'm trying to cast Raise scrolls with my great UMD in an effort to get a raid back on track. My paladin is similarly durable, only he deals slightly less DPS with much higher PRR/MRR and provides some level of CC with all the knockdown and stun effects, plus he can instantly self heal with LoH, cures and cocoon. The benefit to a vanguard with a minor in Sacred Defender is that I can turtle up, let mobs beat on me and get a quickened Raise Dead on a cleric/bard/wizard, who will then raise the rest of the party. Barbarians have none of that.

In no way/shape/form am I saying that bards or paladins are OP. Now people can play a variety of characters that can contribute to end game raids and EE completions without joining an LFM entirely populated with books, hands and the odd pink sneaker when the quest requires some trapping. To play an EE ready bard or paladin, you still need to have strategy, experience, gear and twitch skills. The dev team has done a great job listening to players and opened up epic levels to a much wider array of play styles. I just feel like this time, they held back a touch in light of all the recent whining that the books and hands were now sharing the kill count with fists and harps when they had a 2-3 year undisputed heavyweight reign. It's always hard for old lions to see new contenders emerge.

As a Barbarian, I feel that the rage penalties limit my build choices considerably, to the point that I wouldn't mind seeing everything turned up to 11 just to make up for raging. I could not rage, but my saves are still terrible and my DPS isn't very good at all. I built a pure barbarian, because I felt like a few levels of cleric wouldn't allow me to self heal while raging and the buffs would be largely irrelevant after level 10 with such short timers and an inability to cast while raged. I can't cocoon myself on the spot, I can only buff with potions and clickies before the fight starts, and my saves were just atrocious with good resistance gear on. The damage is pretty good, but I can't self buff at my leisure when I get stripped by a dispel magic or beholder. That leaves me held or stunned quite often, even with a +10 resist item, +4 GH and +2 good luck. I don't know how to get my saves any higher unless I start sacrificing DPS for wis and dex boosting gear.

Long story short, Barbarian still needs work if you want to see people actually playing them at epics. As of right now, they're probably ok for getting through barbarian HTRs on an elite BB without wanting to throw the monitor out the window the minute you leave Harbor. Honestly, I think Barbarians were always the worst/least survivable class ever, so now is the time to really open the gates on DPS. If any class is really stuck in one role and should be head and shoulders above all other classes (including self healing BF sorcs), it should be barbarian.

[jalont]

Just remove the restrictions to casting while raged. Just do it. It will solve so many problems. Think of a yummy pie made up of offense/defense/healing. Barbs have tiny slivers of two of those things, and, if we're lucky, a very slightly larger piece of offense, while bards and paladins have large pieces of each slice.

This is not balanced. Barbs will remain a dead class.

Remove casting restrictions from rage. This will put their self healing on par with every.other.class in the game.

[MangLord]

Bringing up bladeforged, I'm seeing the first barbarian exploit being the cheap reconstruct SLA to use when canceling rage. Is it possible to make the healing amp and self healing effects apply a positive energy effect, thus not benefiting bladeforged as much, or forcing WF to invest in Healers Friend in order to reap more benefit from the effect? Overall, I like the effect a lot, but i can see it getting abused very easily.

[XxJFGxX]

Bringing up bladeforged, I'm seeing the first barbarian exploit being the cheap reconstruct SLA to use when canceling rage. Is it possible to make the healing amp and self healing effects apply a positive energy effect, thus not benefiting bladeforged as much, or forcing WF to invest in Healers Friend in order to reap more benefit from the effect? Overall, I like the effect a lot, but i can see it getting abused very easily.

I'm not sure if the passive heal amp from the cores affect reconstruction whatsoever. But if I COULD get on Lam I could test that because I am curious as well and even so I probably still wouldn't take it anyways. Because it will take 9 AP for max upgrade and you would need quicken for a quicker cast.

[Tilomere]

Can the barb HP/HAMP cores replace the force spell power and additional repetitive EK spellsword cores? I'm certain an arcane eldritch knight doesn't needs four exclusive 10 damage toggles to deal with 16,000 hp EE mobs or to add force spell power to power 1d4+1 magic missiles as much as they could use bulk.

[Tilomere]

You get from caspstone 4 con which is 4x 1080 hp (4320), lets assume you throw out yugo pots hp which is 2 con only for 2x 1080 hp (2160), and lets assume you throw in 10 con for temp boosts which is 10 x 1080 (10800) hp.
Now you lose potential 8 fortitude but you gain 17200 hp that needs to be cut down thro prr/ghostly/possible displace (you could basically play a elf with dmark for longer displace heh).

Elf has -con racial, and no con bonus in tree or base like dwarfs. In addition, in order for dragonmarks to be long enough to last through rage you need extend feat, which means no capstone due to requiring a caster level to be eligible for extend, and no mighty rage at 20. Not being a dwarf and loss of capstone puts you 10 con down already, 2 additional con for loss of level 20 mighty rage, for -12 starting con to pull off this combo. Plus a solid con investment to make it work, without throw your weight around to capitalize dps off of it, so a lower dps build, with investment in elf dragonmark feat and enhancements for even lower dps.

Plus to maintain the melee power through blitz, you are looking at going entire quests and raids without using a shrine or zoning, which on 20 minute quests would be a minimum of -20 con and probably more since once you start dropping your permanent hp for temporary ones, you will keep needing to do so more and more often to keep a safety hp zone. -20 con or more on top of -12 con for starting as an elf multiclass caster and a feat isn't nearly as trivial a cost for staying alive as bf reconstruct, and doesn't give you an unlimited haste boost either. The lack of shrines will cut into your action boost usage and also lower dps. Plus spells will still melt you, since you lack saves, so the hp won't mean as much, prr or no.

I think barbs will still be less powerful than paladins, but in a much more balanced place.

[Dagolar]

Paladin	Barbarian	Winner
+2 threat expansion	+2 19-20 Crit Mult	Paladin
+1 universal multipler	+1 19-20 Crit Mult (Death Frenzy)	Paladin
+1 W	+1 W	Wash
+10% Doublestrike	10% Glancing Damage 6% Glancing Effects	Paladin
Free Cleaves	Supereme Cleave	Barbarian
Divine might (20 strength)	Rage + 3 Insight Item (8+6+3=17+3=20)	Wash
Divine favor	Furious Rage + Power Attack Enh	Barbarian
7d6 Light damage	6d6 Vicious + 2d6 Pain Touch	Barbarian
20 Potential melee power	20 Melee Power Passive	Barbarian
Divine Sacrifice	Ear Shmash	Barbarian
Holy retribution	Slaughter	Barbarian
Nothing	5 Melee Power & 400 Vorpal Damage	Barbarian

DPS wise as the proposal stands right now Barbarians out DPS Paladins, but Paladins have better self sufficiency and defense which is how things should be. Unfortunately the DPS numbers for both classes are too high.

Over all Paladins are still the better class but at least they aren't better DPS.

Edit: didn't have 2d6 Pain Touch.

We're assuming Slaughter is finally fixed. And, while the spell-null is nice, 1.5W Ear Smash doesn't quite reach Divine Sacrifice's damage- You're looking at maybe 41 average damage with full crit profile and best weapon W and full melee power, versus maybe 57 average damage with full melee power [of what is typically the best damage type]. So I'd call that a tie.

And most pally-playing players I know aren't slotting smite stuff because the cost is too high to slot it, versus benefits from the other trees.


Paladins both out-survive and out-dps barbarians: Though due to how adrenaline works, FotW (now that it's being reverted to +base damage only again) acts as a sort of balancer to that.

[Scrabbler]

We're assuming Slaughter is finally fixed. And, while the spell-null is nice, 1.5W Ear Smash doesn't quite reach Divine Sacrifice's damage

The purpose of Ear Smash isn't the damage it does, but that it makes the enemy helpless for your following swing (which can be Slaughter).

[Severlin]

Thanks for the feedback. We are still looking at tweaks to the tree. We will be testing it with a bit more damage, and we are discussing whether we need to add some of the extra Hit Points and Healing Amplification back.

Sev~

[Qhualor]

Thanks for the feedback. We are still looking at tweaks to the tree. We will be testing it with a bit more damage, and we are discussing whether we need to add some of the extra Hit Points and Healing Amplification back.

Sev~

My response ties into what I said in OS thread. Making light/medium armor more viable than heavy for a barb could mean taking on more damage resulting needing more HP and heal amp for survivability. End result still means SF pots for a true DPS barb.

I know I'm alone on this and I really wish I could have proven it, but I do agree that barb DPS is in a good place. I just don't know for sure if FB is noticeably better than Swashbuckler (SWF). For some they say its not better than Paladin. Either way, FB should be top dog DPS with better survivability than currently.

I can see looking at the broad scope of things that builds like paladin and bards have very good DPS, better all around saves and multiple ways to buff with spells/umd and multiple options to self heal. In the long run, these builds can have the better DPS. A barb is relying on limited buffs and SF pots (unless they twist sacred ground) and raw DPS to kill as quick as possible. This is why its important that barb raw DPS is hands down better than any other melee. A barb with comparable or less DPS as paladin or bard will not get played much and multi classing will be dominant for certain builds.

[Monkey-Boy]

I know I'm alone on this and I really wish I could have proven it, .

but you couldn't, because you are wrong. Factually wrong, it's not a matter of opinion.

And yes, these changes aren't enough. Barbs still need more DPS to make up for the other areas they lack.

[Takllin]

Thanks for the feedback. We are still looking at tweaks to the tree. We will be testing it with a bit more damage, and we are discussing whether we need to add some of the extra Hit Points and Healing Amplification back.

Sev~

Thanks for the update. I think adding in more sources of PRR and MRR would be better than buffing HP, but either I'd be okay with.

Any chance we will see these changes with this coming weekends build? Also, any insight on how small or big the DPS buff will be?

but you couldn't, because you are wrong. Factually wrong, it's not a matter of opinion.

And yes, these changes aren't enough. Barbs still need more DPS to make up for the other areas they lack.

We are still waiting for him post a video proving that his build has better DPS than Cetus' barbarian build...

[maddong]

If you just add more dps to fb I think the problem will be:
You have justified fb's existence but are all barbarians required to play in fb or are ravager/occult just the "challenge lines" that are going to do less damage with inferior healing vs swashbuckler/holy sword.

Don't get me wrong I'm not looking for a holy sword or swashbuckler nerf I'm just not sure what the point of a non fb barb will be....

Will people play the other lines just for the heal amp? If so we should probably introduce both the third fvs and Druid trees that will both be heal speced radiant servant equivalent trees to try and get people interested in healing again.

[Qhualor]

but you couldn't, because you are wrong. Factually wrong, it's not a matter of opinion.

And yes, these changes aren't enough. Barbs still need more DPS to make up for the other areas they lack.

My barbarians DPS is not a matter of opinion, but a matter of fact. I don't complain about DPS using Int for DPS on a barb, using a fighter or DPS healer destiny or twisting things like sacred ground. Its not me, its how YOU build that lacks DPS.