Barbarian - Frenzied Berserker Changes

[davmuzl]

Nice comparison.

The only Paladin specific change we are looking at is removing the +[W] from Holy Sword and reducing the extra enhancement to +1 which, as many players have pointed out, is probably gratuitous. (Don't worry, the critical related bonuses haven't changed.) That would push Barbarian up a bit in the DPS comparison.

The big question is how much effect the hit points and healing amplification will help Barbarian survival. We think it makes a bigger difference from playing with it than players are suggesting but we will have to see.

Sev~

How can you call this a nice comparison?!

If anything it shows that you should stop throwing in small-big DPS bonuses that are hard to keep track of to make sure it is easy to balance out different classes and of course also builds that combine different classes and races. You also have to understand that an increase of crit multipliers across all crits is big DPS boost which is why barbarian crit bonuses only apply on 19-20. And this is not even speaking of what happened to the bards who are no bards anymore but are now played like tactical melees with selfhealing and selfbuffs.

I also find it strange how people keep telling how well their barbarians are doing in ee conent on live when their selfhealing is SF-pots and store-pots.

[Grailhawk]

I'd think that is a yes, and as much as I hate to say it, I think I might agree with him. I'm on the fence about it. I really want Barbarian to be better...

Do you think this because the Paladin has better staying power hence more time to attack or because you think the paladins damage boosting abilities are better?

[Cetus]

I think once Paladin loses an extra +1[W] and runs out of Smites the Barbarian will pull ahead both because of the extra cleave abilities and because they will be ahead by 10 Melee Power.

The best solution, however, is DPS checks and dungeon runs on Lamannia to compare the top builds.

Sev~

Smites? Are these even in the conversation due to their horrific animation?

if you fix their animation, which you should, then that'll be another huge advantage to pally. Here's my suggestion, even though I hate nerfs - but if you tone down holy sword - make smites smoothly enter the attack chain.

[Takllin]

Do you think this because the Paladin has better staying power hence more time to attack or because you think the paladins damage boosting abilities are better?

Honestly, both. The first one most definitely. The second, not as much of a differential, but I think it is Paladin is slightly ahead of Barbarian.

Smites? Are these even in the conversation due to their horrific animation?

if you fix their animation, which you should, then that'll be another huge advantage to pally. Here's my suggestion, even though I hate nerfs - but if you tone down holy sword - make smites smoothly enter the attack chain.

I agree with this as well. Fix Smites if you nerf Holy Sword.

[bbqzor]

I pointed out the MAJOR dps perks for each class as they stand. I didn't feel the need to go into ... minor discrepancies that largely don't make a difference in practical gameplay

Okay so now its major perks vs minor discrepancies. How is "free feats" a "major perk", when using them disables half of LD. That a minor discrepancy? Comparing classes from a balance perspective *requires* the full picture. If youre going to pick major and minor, you have to say so. You have to say "hey heres the major points, its not 100% accurate because of the minor stuff but here".

You dont. You post one thing "A is better than B" and thats it, and hold the rest to either be self evidient or inconsequential, and that would be bias. Full disclosure, if its not the whole picture say so. Or accept that its based.

Which is, given some of the A vs B calls youre making, the case. Some things people are just going to come down on different sides of. Is 500 vs undead better than 400 vs anything? Shrugs, prolly depends who you ask, what content youre in, etc etc. But is "exalted cleave" really a big deal? What are you doing with those feats thats so much better than taking them and going into LD? Those kinds of examinations demand the full details because without them things get distorted too easily.

Tired of seeing hollow "this is better" statements, from anyone, that ignore context. Context is everything. With FB having 25 melee power (which no one has brought up in any of the mentioned comparisons) the entire case isnt fair anyhow. Paladins will get better crit support. FB will have better aoe dps, and likely better overall dps. Is that what I would have designed? No. Is that a lot more fair than "holy sword is too good, fb only crits on 19-20"... yea. It is. And with the much higher str a barbarian will likely be able to leverage (paladin suffers from MAD far more than barb, who get passive str boosts to boot) it looks even better. Its not all about one aspect like crits. So one aspect cant be the basis for balancing the whole class. /2 cents.

[Qhualor]

The best solution, however, is DPS checks and dungeon runs on Lamannia to compare the top builds.

Sev~

this right here is what always worries me with game changes. there are players like Cetus and than there are players like me and than there are players like Jimmy. its good to look at changes and how it will impact the min/maxxers, but there are a lot more players like me than there are players like Cetus. than theres a lot of players like Jimmy that will ask in game or right here if someone will be kind enough to direct them to a barb build because they like to smash things and people will link Cetus. they will either invest the time, energy and money into getting a build just like Cetus or they will quickly re-roll by level 10. just some food for thought as changes impact those below the min/maxxers a lot more.

apologies to Cetus.

[bbqzor]

I think once Paladin loses an extra +1[W] and runs out of Smites the Barbarian will pull ahead both because of the extra cleave abilities and because they will be ahead by 10 Melee Power.

The best solution, however, is DPS checks and dungeon runs on Lamannia to compare the top builds.

What? Lol. Smite is basically not playable right now... is this an admission that youre going to fix the animation to how it used to work? You know, by working? Cant twf with them, cant use in an animation chain, etc... theyre totally broke. Is this going to be fixed to be seamless? Otherwise, nerfs just a nerf. And holysword hardly needs it (unless youre going to RE-ADDRESS the rest of the joke "paladin-pass-which-was-really-just-heavy-armor-for-everyone").

And to imply the "best solution" is to compare "top builds"... seriously I cry. People have different levels of build-fu, familiarity with the classes, and ability to speed run dungeons. Trying to quantify anything balance related in light of all that has to be difficult if not impossible (barring any obviously OP situations). I cannot believe that would be a "best solution".

Look put it another way: Me, Cestus, and Qhaulor are all saying the same thing, independently, within minutes of one another. Im not saying we are a fair representation or anything but if youve read this thread at all you know we have widely varying viewpoints. If we all lined up immediately without any discussion... thats a sign. Just saying =/

[nibel]

this right here is what always worries me with game changes. there are players like Cetus and than there are players like me and than there are players like Jimmy.

This quickly reminded me from this article. While it is VERY focused on Magic (for obvious reasons), I think those three player profiles can be found in basically any game with major build liberties, like DDO.

[btolson]

Nice comparison.

The only Paladin specific change we are looking at is removing the +[W] from Holy Sword and reducing the extra enhancement to +1 which, as many players have pointed out, is probably gratuitous. (Don't worry, the critical related bonuses haven't changed.) That would push Barbarian up a bit in the DPS comparison.
Sev~

It is too soon for paladin nerfs. Schedule this for U25 or U26 when you can do a full "Paladin mini-pass" to fix all the broken things at the same time as introduce nerfs. Don't just arbitrarily introduce this now to make barbs look better.


Edit: And don't just give in to the vocal paladin-haters.

[BDog77]

This is foolish. If you reduce holy sword, you skew the paladin pass balance that JUST happened. There were things that did not happen because of holy sword, to now immediately reduce holy sword erodes that entire process.

You also have to adjust some of the other things up. Things like making Holy Retribution actually do anything remotely worth AP, fixing the smite animations to be actually playable (theyre still not, is this even on the radar), allowing the Cleave enhancements to qualify for Momentum Swing (to permit taking the destiny ability, it already resets it but doesnt enable purchase), etc.

Everyone is focused on holy sword being good, which it is. Perhaps too good. But thats the fault of pointing to one ability being buffed to prop up an entire class, instead of spending the time to go adjust all the other things to make it work like bard and barbarian are getting. The "paladin" pass basically comes down to "heres holy sword and vanguard" only vanguard is 10x the fighter tree it ever could be for a paladin since it just takes paladins too many feats to use properly. If you hurt holy sword, what are you going to do about actually going over the class properly?

AMEN!!! Amen,Amen,Amen,Amen!

And, did I mention, AMEN?!!!!

I tried to point out that Pallies were getting almost NOTHING in the supposed enhancement pass other than Holy Sword, but everybody was too up in arms about the uberness of Holy Sword to listen to this. Other than the spell, we got a little light damage (which was instantly nerfed, scales with MP, right, only MP got instantly nerfed), 1 free feat (still gotta take Cleave if you want Momentum Swing), Holy Retribution got changed, maybe (does it recharge Smites yet? Oh wait, since they just crushed Smites with the "improved" animation, does it matter?). Maybe some stuff got changed in the Sword and Boring style, I didn't check since fighters are so far ahead in the S&B and Vanguard styles (yeah, feats).

The only real change for my Pallies was that I could actually stand to run EE again (armor up didn't help much here, since I could already SURVIVE), in that it wasn't so mindnumbingly BORING and took so long that I felt like my eyes were bleeding at the end of any of them. Well, it was fun for a coupla months, now back to EH (which is still mindnumbingly BORING, it's just that I can do the DPS to complete them in a reasonable amount of time).

Thanks a lot, Barbarian.

I won't forget this.

PS: If we are starting to nerf DPS, is it possible that we could cut MOBs HP on EE to about 1/5 of what they are, you know, like it used to be when running Master's Blitz back in the day?

[Cetus]

Okay so now its major perks vs minor discrepancies. How is "free feats" a "major perk", when using them disables half of LD. That a minor discrepancy? Comparing classes from a balance perspective *requires* the full picture. If youre going to pick major and minor, you have to say so. You have to say "hey heres the major points, its not 100% accurate because of the minor stuff but here".

You dont. You post one thing "A is better than B" and thats it, and hold the rest to either be self evidient or inconsequential, and that would be bias. Full disclosure, if its not the whole picture say so. Or accept that its based.

Which is, given some of the A vs B calls youre making, the case. Some things people are just going to come down on different sides of. Is 500 vs undead better than 400 vs anything? Shrugs, prolly depends who you ask, what content youre in, etc etc. But is "exalted cleave" really a big deal? What are you doing with those feats thats so much better than taking them and going into LD? Those kinds of examinations demand the full details because without them things get distorted too easily.

Tired of seeing hollow "this is better" statements, from anyone, that ignore context. Context is everything. With FB having 25 melee power (which no one has brought up in any of the mentioned comparisons) the entire case isnt fair anyhow. Paladins will get better crit support. FB will have better aoe dps, and likely better overall dps. Is that what I would have designed? No. Is that a lot more fair than "holy sword is too good, fb only crits on 19-20"... yea. It is. And with the much higher str a barbarian will likely be able to leverage (paladin suffers from MAD far more than barb, who get passive str boosts to boot) it looks even better. Its not all about one aspect like crits. So one aspect cant be the basis for balancing the whole class. /2 cents.

Dude put away the pitchfork, you're starting to ramble.

500 undead vs. 400 anything isn't the comparison. The 400 is amplified by melee power, its quite obviously better. But, the 500 vs undead is still something to consider.

The free feats allow the pally to become nearly indestructible via adamantine body and quicken as a bladeforged. The amount of DPS barb just gained PALES in comparison to the sheer amount of DPS pallies gain by virtue of their nearly unkillable state. Barbs will be splattered across the floor most of the time in comparison, and ***MY POINT** is that they need huge DPS boosts to compensate for their crappy self sufficiency.

By huge I mean - 30-50% better than pally, all of this talk is about whether or not they are better - which already shows something wrong.

The discussion should be by how much are they better, not if they are better at all to begin with. They need much more DPS than they currently have - because nerfing pally to oblivion is a boring and unfun solution.

[Tesrali]

don't nerf pallies

I love my overpowered garbage first life toon that is not dying in ee mod, and doing top dps

Bdog. 1/5 of their current hp? You should look at what eh health is---since its higher than that---and you're calling it boring, lol


nuff said. nerf the most survivable class in the game. take away +1 multiplier or +1 threat and remove any animation for smite---it should function like some of dem bard abilities, that are smooth as a BABY'S RUMMMMMMPP. YA.

Give barbs more dps and make them more squishy if they take frenzied berserker. I have minions which will hjeal me!!!! Let's diversify roles here. No need for 3 moderate damage flavor trees, when we could have one that honors the full chaotic stupid that is bar bar bar bar

[SilkofDrasnia]

It is too soon for paladin nerfs. Schedule this for U25 or U26 when you can do a full "Paladin mini-pass" to fix all the broken things at the same time as introduce nerfs. Don't just arbitrarily introduce this now to make barbs look better.


Edit: And don't just give in to the vocal paladin-haters.

Pretty much this.

[Takllin]

It is too soon for paladin nerfs. Schedule this for U25 or U26 when you can do a full "Paladin mini-pass" to fix all the broken things at the same time as introduce nerfs. Don't just arbitrarily introduce this now to make barbs look better.


Edit: And don't just give in to the vocal paladin-haters.

It isn't too soon. These "nerfs" should have been made before these changes ever went live.

Also, not all of us are "Paladin-haters". I have always loved the Paladin class, but I HATE how much of an easy button of a class they have made it.

AMEN!!! Amen,Amen,Amen,Amen!

And, did I mention, AMEN?!!!!

I tried to point out that Pallies were getting almost NOTHING in the supposed enhancement pass other than Holy Sword, but everybody was too up in arms about the uberness of Holy Sword to listen to this. Other than the spell, we got a little light damage (which was instantly nerfed, scales with MP, right, only MP got instantly nerfed), 1 free feat (still gotta take Cleave if you want Momentum Swing), Holy Retribution got changed, maybe (does it recharge Smites yet? Oh wait, since they just crushed Smites with the "improved" animation, does it matter?). Maybe some stuff got changed in the Sword and Boring style, I didn't check since fighters are so far ahead in the S&B and Vanguard styles (yeah, feats).

The only real change for my Pallies was that I could actually stand to run EE again (armor up didn't help much here, since I could already SURVIVE), in that it wasn't so mindnumbingly BORING and took so long that I felt like my eyes were bleeding at the end of any of them. Well, it was fun for a coupla months, now back to EH (which is still mindnumbingly BORING, it's just that I can do the DPS to complete them in a reasonable amount of time).

Thanks a lot, Barbarian.

I won't forget this.

PS: If we are starting to nerf DPS, is it possible that we could cut MOBs HP on EE to about 1/5 of what they are, you know, like it used to be when running Master's Blitz back in the day?

Going to have to strongly disagree here. Paladin got a lot, most of which has been overshadowed by Holy Sword. Especially if the Exalted Smite animation actually was half decent...

[Monkey-Boy]

I vote no nerfing paladins. im not seeing these uber paladins anywhere in the game. ive come across 2...

You need to run with better people.

[SilkofDrasnia]

It isn't too soon. These "nerfs" should have been made before these changes ever went live.

Also, not all of us are "Paladin-haters". I have always loved the Paladin class, but I HATE how much of an easy button of a class they have made it.



Going to have to strongly disagree here. Paladin got a lot, most of which has been overshadowed by Holy Sword. Especially if the Exalted Smite animation actually was half decent...

No pallies only seem that way because we were so underpowered for so long. They finally are competitive now, people just need to let the devs finish the class pass on the other classes before comparing them.

You need to run with better people.

I will bet you were one of the people back in the day that considered most pure paladins weak and a waste of space back when epics had a timer.

[Qhualor]

You need to run with better people.

you have no clue who I run with.

[Blackheartox]

No pallies only seem that way because we were so underpowered for so long. They finally are competitive now, people just need to let the devs finish the class pass on the other classes before comparing them.




I will bet you were one of the people back in the day that considered most pure paladins weak and a waste of space back when epics had a timer.

Ah cmon, i love almost all classes in ddo /beside bard, been bard hater since 2009 and im happy they are ok now, maybe a bit to strong/, just to get this out of the way.
I loved palie for a long time and the lack of dps really killed any real reason for me to play it.
I loved my pyrene life for the sufficiency part but hated the dps part.
Now i do agree the old palies needed a dps boost.
But what we got is way to much.
Noone, not a single person can argue with me that holy sword on its own is not overpowered and beyond rationality strong.
ITs just 1 spell that on its own can handle comparison vs any other class.

ITs like this, you compare holy sword vs 42 ap spent into berserker tree, and holy sword can still pull ahead.
Its 1 spell, that comes free with the class.
Is it to strong?
Any person who looks at palie and classes as something that requires balance and isnt in hate/love argument will say that its to strong.
I mean i dont need to argue that +2 enchantment crit multi crit range and w isnt to strong.
Palie will be quite ok and still good even after nerf.
They should not be top dps and top survival.
Top survival with good dps yes.

[bbqzor]

500 undead vs. 400 anything isn't the comparison. The 400 is amplified by melee power, its quite obviously better. But, the 500 vs undead is still something to consider.

Its on the same level as saying a cleave with 1W is worth a comparison. Consideration is much better... the differences matter but its not a "huge advantage".

Smites? ... if you fix their animation, which you should, then that'll be another huge advantage to pally

This is an example of what Im saying. Huge advantage? Compared to what? Is rage a huge advantage for barbarian dps because it offers 8 str and permits frenzy? You just make a blanket statement, no context, no backup. Oh okay, smites are a huge advantage, its fact now. Obviously Im using hyperbole here, but as Ive said: context is everything. This post has none.

The free feats allow the pally to become nearly indestructible via adamantine body and quicken as a bladeforged

Okay so its not "free feats". Its that on a specific race comparing two specific enhancement trees you can leverage 2 feats into a large increase in survivability... one that you feel outweighs the dps LOSS of basically taking LD off the table. That is a WHOLE LOT different than just saying "kotc > fb, free feats". You can see that right? That theyre two entirely different ways of saying something? Its not even a dps advantage, just a "better" build. Why is this even in a dps comparison conversation then?

The amount of DPS barb just gained PALES in comparison to the sheer amount of DPS pallies gain by virtue of their nearly unkillable state. Barbs will be splattered across the floor most of the time in comparison, and ***MY POINT** is that they need huge DPS boosts to compensate for their crappy self sufficiency.

So, barbarians dont do enough dps because a paladin will outlive them and keep dpsing when they are dead? I totally agree barbs have a survivability issue. Feel free to read my posts in all 3 barb threads, Im not shy about that. But choosing 1 class out of the other 12 to single out, then compare barbs to, then use that one comparison as a justification for doing anything.... that doesnt really make sense.

Instead, what you are saying is "barbarians need to do more dps, enough more dps to shorten fights such that the lack of survivability becomes less of a liability". That has nothing to do with paladin, and everything to do with barbarians vs environment balance. Why are you even bringing paladin up?

They need much more DPS than they currently have - because nerfing pally to oblivion is a boring and unfun solution.

Lol. So you think nerfing paladins is a solution? A boring and unfun one, but one that would solve your issues?

So its not "barbarians need to do more dps, enough more dps to shorten fights such that the lack of survivability becomes less of a liability"... it really is "barbarians should be better than paladin, at dps, by enough dps that you dont need paladin survivability, so that theres no reason to use paladin, because more dps".

Glad we could clear that up. You need to stop worrying about how good you look standing next to someone else and start actually looking at balance. Actual, overall, relative balance. Not "A vs B in a vacuum" balance. Not "only on bladeforged" balance. And if you dont, you need to at least put "kotc > fb... on bladeforged... in overall sense". See, theres that context. Context, you needs it.

Kinda done posting on this, I could point out lack of context all day. While your very specific points might be accurate for whatever exacting example you have, your presentation and representation in your posts is not due to lacking huge amounts of disclosure about what that exact example is. "Huge advantage" implies a reality very different from the actual "practical play" one. Just show your work, the whole picture, and maybe even I will find some things to take seriously.

[Takllin]

No pallies only seem that way because we were so underpowered for so long. They finally are competitive now, people just need to let the devs finish the class pass on the other classes before comparing them.




I will bet you were one of the people back in the day that considered most pure paladins weak and a waste of space back when epics had a timer.

You act like I didn't play one before this enhancement pass. I played one since cap was 20, all the way through EE GH, and dropped it once Centered Kensai became a thing, on my quest to get completionist and then epic completionist. I went back to it before the enhancement pass, played it after the enhancement pass.

If being competitive is better than every other melee, then sure, I agree

There is also an aspect of game balance and power creep here.

Per the second comment, I agree with that poster, and I don't consider Paladin to be a waste of a party slot.