Barbarian - Frenzied Berserker Changes

[Cetus]

Nice comparison.

The only Paladin specific change we are looking at is removing the +[W] from Holy Sword and reducing the extra enhancement to +1 which, as many players have pointed out, is probably gratuitous. (Don't worry, the critical related bonuses haven't changed.) That would push Barbarian up a bit in the DPS comparison.

The big question is how much effect the hit points and healing amplification will help Barbarian survival. We think it makes a bigger difference from playing with it than players are suggesting but we will have to see.

Sev~

Sev, its not a nice comparison.

Look - Lets say fully blitzed I'm landing something like 550 front number. And have GHTF + PTHF + Wild Weapons = 69% glancing blow damage.

If I gain an additional 10% glancing blow damage - that's another 55 points of damage per glance on top of the 380 I was already doing. If I twitch, 20 hits = 20 glances = 1100 extra damage every 20 hits (55*20). Sound ok?

10% doublestrike - If I twitch, 20 hits procs 2 extra hits each of which also has a glance, and those extra hits have a 40% chance to crit (in my falchion wielding case). So, I'm doing, at minimum an extra 1100 + 380*2(glances) = 1860 extra damage. If they both crit, well its lightyears ahead of the 10% glancing blow damage.


That 10% doublestrike covers the glancing blow, and probably the 400 damage barb capstone - because a barb fully maxed out probably won't go over 160-170 melee power - which would only scale that 400 damage up to about 1000 on every vorpal. Between momentum swings, holy retributions, divine sacrifices, that 10% doublestrike is constantly churning out extra crits and glances that I'd never have.

[Cetus]

3 cleaves one of which is on a 3 second timer is significantly better then 2 cleaves that have a little bit better W. In a 6 second time the Barbarian will make 4 AoE attacks vs the paladins 2 that's clearly better the extra W wont make up for the extra 2 attacks no way.

On the Slaughter and Ear Smash you could talk me into calling it a wash but I wouldn't clearly favor paladin on those.

Yes Paladins are a lot more flexible with there AP they get 80%+ of there power for 2 spells. Barbarians get most of there power from there trees which are better overall for DPS then the Paladin trees.

Yes, except its better only in an AoE context - it does nothing for you for a boss.

Your 6 seconds are misleading, because cleave and great cleave have both reset by the 6th second.

In 5 seconds, pally makes 2 cleaves, barb makes 3. That's a better way to put it.

I'm not talking you into anything - 10W attack every 30 seconds is horrible. Simple.

Ear smash is a purely CC ability - divine sacrifice is objectively better, and its every 3 seconds.

[Grailhawk]

Yes, except its better only in an AoE context - it does nothing for you for a boss.

Your 6 seconds are misleading, because cleave and great cleave have both reset by the 6th second.

In 5 seconds, pally makes 2 cleaves, barb makes 3. That's a better way to put it.

I'm not talking you into anything - 10W attack every 30 seconds is horrible. Simple.

Ear smash is a purely CC ability - divine sacrifice is objectively better, and its every 3 seconds.

So in your opinion Paladins do more DPS then Barbarians will after they make the proposed changes?

[SilkofDrasnia]

Nice comparison.

The only Paladin specific change we are looking at is removing the +[W] from Holy Sword and reducing the extra enhancement to +1 which, as many players have pointed out, is probably gratuitous. (Don't worry, the critical related bonuses haven't changed.) That would push Barbarian up a bit in the DPS comparison.

The big question is how much effect the hit points and healing amplification will help Barbarian survival. We think it makes a bigger difference from playing with it than players are suggesting but we will have to see.

Sev~

By the very post you quoted you shouldn't change +[w] or reduce the extra enhancement to +1 as it clearly show barbs are ahead in dps no? Don't give in to the whinage of a few spotlight posters.

Make all the different class changes then let it go for awhile THEN look at changes. Think of it this way, if you are going to nerf pallies to make barb dps look better then maybe wait and let barb changes take effect, let people play and learn how to work the changes so you can also see if barbs need a survivability nerf to make pallies look better.

Turn about is only fair.

[Qhualor]

Bladeforged is simply a high DPS race which would be the go-to choice for some barbs. Human would be the other. Dwarf is the third one, but its DPS will be quite lower since it doesn't have a racial boost.

WF and BF have virtually the same racial tree. biggest differences is Communion of Scribing and Power of the Forge. BF comes out on top by a little more just because of those 2 things.

[Blackheartox]

By the very post you quoted you shouldn't change +[w] or reduce the extra enhancement to +1 as it clearly show barbs are ahead in dps no? Don't give in to the whinage of a few spotlight posters.

Make all the different class changes then let it go for awhile THEN look at changes. Think of it this way, if you are going to nerf pallies to make barb dps look better then maybe wait and let barb changes take effect, let people play and learn how to work the changes so you can also see if barbs need a survivability nerf to make pallies look better.

Turn about is only fair.

But its simpler and more reasonable to nerf palie first and then balance new barb changes revolving around nerfed palie.
Nerfed holy sword will still be top dps currently (if we disregard broken builds like wolfs which also require fixing)

Fact is, if they dont nerf holy sword, fighters cant keep up nor monks and rogues /rangers are ok due to little buffs to growing storm and dance of death/, so the next step would be to buff those, then bards and palies will be left in dust thus again requiring a pass once time in the future.
Its way more reasonable to start nerfing then buffing everything if they dont want to end into the same spot where wow landed which forced them to rebalance all classes and trees after to much buffing.
And a full class rebalance costs money and time, both which turbine maybe doesnt have.
I say nerf, balance around nerfed palie and we all win.
Barb should be ahead of palie anyways due to survival palie gets. (dps wise)

[bbqzor]

What awful reasoning. Hello! You are OBVIOUSLY going to capstone KotC, since we're comparing DPS here. You'll OBVIOUSLY acquire tier 5 KotC. We're comparing DPS here.

So then include all that in your post. Include how barbarian gets 6d6 from frenzy and 1-2d6 from pain touch vs kotc 7d6 light. Include that frenzy does 400 on vorpals to kotcs 500 vs only undead. Make it apples to apples. Dont just single out one ability and act like that stands for the whole thing. It doesnt.

In addition, what are your feat choices on a pure barbarian? You get your standard 7 feats + 3 epic = 10

THF, ITHF, GTHF, IC:Slashing, PA, OC, SB, Cleave, Great Cleave, Completionist - maybe better armor proficiency for PRR.

How does this change for paladins... you can drop the cleaves? And then not use momentum swing / lay waste? Thats not good for comparing DPS. Are you just ignoring LD as a DPS choice? Why focus on "free" feats that take away an entire destiny? How is that an advantage? You cite LD in like every other post... just ignoring this problem then? Or falsely representing the "free" feats as better than they are? Whats up?

I've never run out of holy retributions .... Yes, on paper it sounds like you'd rip through them quickly. But there are a lot of other abilities you are spamming that stretch them out when they are actually used - the same thing would happen for the barbarian counterpart in between your momentum swings, slaughters, ear smashes, cleave, great cleave, supreme cleave, whatever.

Okay, so now youre saying that barbarian slaughter is parallel to holy retribution because you cannot click it fast enough? Doesnt that mitigate the 30s cd on slaughter? Doesnt this mean they are more equal than you implied before, where you said holy retribution "decisively wins"? So on paper it wins, but in practice due to other abilities and practical cd rotations, they kinda even out? Thats the exact kind of balance that should be there.

Nope. Did I say that I want barbarians to have better defenses than paladin? Well, I just shot your "under any circumstances" assertion.

I should have said in all offensive situations... but this rather highlights that doesnt it? My mistake =p

The only advantage I see barbs having right now, is AoE DPS because of an extra cleave. But, if you want to be honest with yourself - also include the undead targets that take 500 damage on every 20 from pally KotC core as well. And currently, undead are not a trivial enemy. Then scale the light damage with their vulnerability to it too. Why do I have to bring these up?

Yea, but if youre "obviously assuming" capstones and such, as mentioned above, FBs 400 is pretty well similar to KotCs 500, bit less, but works on anything. It starts to look pretty comparable. Why do you have to bring these up? Because you need to compare the whole package, not singled out individual abilities. And you didnt post the whole package picture until now. When you do, it starts looking a lot less slanted than you make it sound.

If youre gonna compare, compare equally. Using a full picture. Otherwise, not only is it too subjective to help much, but it creates bias. Soon as you get called on it, surprise, big picture info. Just do that the first time and stop sounding like an advertisement for paladin nerfs.

PS. I have a capped paladin and barbarian, both are multi life epic elite characters with epic past lives etc, only mentioning that to be clear that I dont care if one "wins" over the other, they should both be good in their own ways, imo.

[HatsuharuZ]

The big question is how much effect the hit points and healing amplification will help Barbarian survival. We think it makes a bigger difference from playing with it than players are suggesting but we will have to see.

Sev~

Agreed. I'm not a big number cruncher, so actually playing a character is the best way, for me at least, to learn how powerful it is.

[Qhualor]

I vote no nerfing paladins. im not seeing these uber paladins anywhere in the game. ive come across 2...

2...

2...

since the changes that appeared to have well above average dps. all I see are Swashbucklers mowing down mobs faster than any paladin ive seen. if there is going to be nerf, look at Swashbucklers.

[Blackheartox]

The big question is how much effect the hit points and healing amplification will help Barbarian survival. We think it makes a bigger difference from playing with it than players are suggesting but we will have to see.

Sev~

Yes good question sev, i played around a bit as con based occult and berserker /both con based/ to get a feeling how a barb on a greared character plays out.
As occult is defense focused and berserker isnt my feeling toward both was that they can survive just fine in epic elite content.
Issue is that it isnt so easy to do so and requires resources that cost.
With the current proposal to occult it will be really nice survival.
Only thing im really worried about is the temp hp from berserkers blood tribute being to high.

But how will silver flame pots react to new healing amp system is the first and most important question regarding barb proposal.

[Scrabbler]

Nice comparison.

The only Paladin specific change we are looking at is

It's pretty interesting that the Paladin DPS list made no mention of Smite Evil, except implicitly as one source of a meleepower buff. It's very unfortunate that Smite Evil is weak enough that people don't notice when it's skipped.

[Qhualor]

too much focus on LD and not enough on FOTW. my barbs do much more dps in FOTW. LD isn't a bad destiny for a barbarian, but FOTW is better. if I actually thought LD was better, this would be the time to say something since you know, barb pass and all.

[Sebastrd]

The only Paladin specific change we are looking at is removing the +[W] from Holy Sword and reducing the extra enhancement to +1 which, as many players have pointed out, is probably gratuitous. (Don't worry, the critical related bonuses haven't changed.)

I despise changes like this. We haven't even reached the next update, and already you're contemplating minor nerfs, because...because you couldn't get the numbers right the first time even with all of the Lamannia testing? Because there are forumites who hate prosperity and always complain that everything is OP?

Is +[W] and +1 enchantment so backbreaking that it deserves dev attention with everything else going on in the game?

[Blackheartox]

I despise changes like this. We haven't even reached the next update, and already you're contemplating minor nerfs, because...because you couldn't get the numbers right the first time even with all of the Lamannia testing? Because there are forumites who hate prosperity and always complain that everything is OP?

Is +[W] and +1 enchantment so backbreaking that it deserves dev attention with everything else going on in the game?

Compared to everything else holy sword gives being a selfbuff that doesnt require any ap spent into the tree.

Yes

[Qhualor]

I despise changes like this. We haven't even reached the next update, and already you're contemplating minor nerfs, because...because you couldn't get the numbers right the first time even with all of the Lamannia testing? Because there are forumites who hate prosperity and always complain that everything is OP?

Is +[W] and +1 enchantment so backbreaking that it deserves dev attention with everything else going on in the game?

I could be wrong, but if I read between the lines it seems the devs are giving in to player feedback than doing things on a more balanced level. ive always said that players don't always know whats best for the game and that includes me.

[Cetus]

Just do that the first time and stop sounding like an advertisement for paladin nerfs.

I pointed out the MAJOR dps perks for each class as they stand. I didn't feel the need to go into 6d6 vs 7d6 as they are minor discrepancies that largely don't make a difference in practical gameplay (since you aren't a perfect player, there will be times when you miss swings or run away to heal - whatever, the little things don't impact this much - its the major multipliers and special attacks that carry most of the DPS weight here).

Also, didn't I say that I don't want pally nerfs? So, whats the deal?

[Krell]

I vote no nerfing paladins. im not seeing these uber paladins anywhere in the game. ive come across 2...

2...

2...

since the changes that appeared to have well above average dps. all I see are Swashbucklers mowing down mobs faster than any paladin ive seen. if there is going to be nerf, look at Swashbucklers.

That has been my experience as well. I regularly see Pali's beat out by swash and sometimes druid when it comes to melee. Casters as well if you want to look at more class comparisons.

[Wh070aa]

Nice comparison.

The only Paladin specific change we are looking at is removing the +[W] from Holy Sword and reducing the extra enhancement to +1 which, as many players have pointed out, is probably gratuitous. (Don't worry, the critical related bonuses haven't changed.) That would push Barbarian up a bit in the DPS comparison.

The big question is how much effect the hit points and healing amplification will help Barbarian survival. We think it makes a bigger difference from playing with it than players are suggesting but we will have to see.

Sev~

Could you please make smites actually do positive damage(more than just hitting tings instead) and maybe work with gods favored weapons, before nerfing only reason I would want to play paladin?

Ehh... another 2 hours of character planing down the drain. Thanks for telling it tho, I won't be stuck in paladin life, when this goes live.

I would prefer if you changed the 19-20 to just critical. That would be good enough.

[Takllin]

Please explain to me why what happens on a 1 matters to what happens on a 20. The expected value per swing of 500 damage on a vorpal is 25. The actual expected value of this ability will be somewhat less, since a vorpal will sometimes occur when the mob has less than 500 HP when the on vorpal effect is applied. This is why forum math is always suspect. DDO combat is a complex system. It's necessary to make assumptions to simplify the problem to the point that a reasonably simple model can be made. It's then necessary to test the model in game to prove it. If you refuse to prove your work, don't expect anyone to accept it as correct.

Please refer to Blackheartox's post to you.

Saying that I refuse to show my work, when this is all talk in theory, and there is no actual way to test it yet.....well I think that statement speaks for itself...

Nice comparison.

The only Paladin specific change we are looking at is removing the +[W] from Holy Sword and reducing the extra enhancement to +1 which, as many players have pointed out, is probably gratuitous. (Don't worry, the critical related bonuses haven't changed.) That would push Barbarian up a bit in the DPS comparison.

Sev~

IMO too small a nerf, swing the bat harder, and don't be afraid to change the critical related bonuses. +5 Enh +1[W] +1 Threat, or +1 Threat +1 19-20 Multiplier, would be my suggestion.

Severlin listen to Grailhawk please. This is the most common modification that has been asked for, and I believe the best as well. It, IMO, is always what Holy Sword should have been.

So in your opinion Paladins do more DPS then Barbarians will after they make the proposed changes?

I'd think that is a yes, and as much as I hate to say it, I think I might agree with him. I'm on the fence about it. I really want Barbarian to be better...

I despise changes like this. We haven't even reached the next update, and already you're contemplating minor nerfs, because...because you couldn't get the numbers right the first time even with all of the Lamannia testing? Because there are forumites who hate prosperity and always complain that everything is OP?

Is +[W] and +1 enchantment so backbreaking that it deserves dev attention with everything else going on in the game?

Source? Otherwise just another incorrect generalization.

I'd say game balance is a pretty important aspect of DDO...

Compared to everything else holy sword gives being a selfbuff that doesnt require any ap spent into the tree.

Yes

Amen.

[Severlin]

Sev, its not a nice comparison.

Look - Lets say fully blitzed I'm landing something like 550 front number. And have GHTF + PTHF + Wild Weapons = 69% glancing blow damage.

If I gain an additional 10% glancing blow damage - that's another 55 points of damage per glance on top of the 380 I was already doing. If I twitch, 20 hits = 20 glances = 1100 extra damage every 20 hits (55*20). Sound ok?

10% doublestrike - If I twitch, 20 hits procs 2 extra hits each of which also has a glance, and those extra hits have a 40% chance to crit (in my falchion wielding case). So, I'm doing, at minimum an extra 1100 + 380*2(glances) = 1860 extra damage. If they both crit, well its lightyears ahead of the 10% glancing blow damage.


That 10% doublestrike covers the glancing blow, and probably the 400 damage barb capstone - because a barb fully maxed out probably won't go over 160-170 melee power - which would only scale that 400 damage up to about 1000 on every vorpal. Between momentum swings, holy retributions, divine sacrifices, that 10% doublestrike is constantly churning out extra crits and glances that I'd never have.

I think once Paladin loses an extra +1[W] and runs out of Smites the Barbarian will pull ahead both because of the extra cleave abilities and because they will be ahead by 10 Melee Power.

The best solution, however, is DPS checks and dungeon runs on Lamannia to compare the top builds.

Sev~