Barbarian - Frenzied Berserker Changes

[Monkey-Boy]

If Paladin feedback has taught us anything it is that players tend to underestimate the cumulative power increase of a lot of smaller changes.

Sev~

I'm also pretty certain the good players who actually understand the game mechanics were well aware of how over-powered the bard and pally changes were before they went live.

[HatsuharuZ]

Early testing on our end suggests that the barbarian changes as presented will probably make barbarians overpowered and when we hit Lamannia I suspect the player feedback will indicate we will need to dial them back. If Paladin feedback has taught us anything it is that players tend to underestimate the cumulative power increase of a lot of smaller changes.

Sev~

This may be due to our lack of spreadsheets. :P

[Takllin]

And I'm also pretty certain the good players who actually understand the game mechanics were well aware of how over-powered the bard and pally changes were before they went live.

Knock on wood.

Hey maybe these will bring Shade back :P

[davmuzl]

Early testing on our end suggests that the barbarian changes as presented will probably make barbarians overpowered and when we hit Lamannia I suspect the player feedback will indicate we will need to dial them back. If Paladin feedback has taught us anything it is that players tend to underestimate the cumulative power increase of a lot of smaller changes.

Sev~

To me it looks like the players are not the only ones underestmating the power of what seem to be small numbers.

Having actually played a Barbarian at cap I don't think they need tons of help in terms of DPS. Though they should have the highest DPS of melee classes which they currently don't.

But that's the point- they are neither the highest melee DPS nor can they keep up with casters or some ranged builds in anyway. And since buffs seem to be the way to go rather than nerfing what is actually overpowered the players (including myself) call for more DPS.

[Takllin]

To me it looks like the players are not the only ones underestmating the power of what seem to be small numbers.



But that's the point- they are neither the highest melee DPS nor can they keep up with casters or some ranged builds in anyway. And since buffs seem to be the way to go rather than nerfing what is actually overpowered the players (including myself) call for more DPS.

Either they don't add enough at first and we accuse them of being out of synch with how Live is and they end up adding higher numbers, or they start off with high numbers knowing it will be too much, and lower them based on player feedback and data.

They started over with low numbers and are now adding in high numbers, knowing full well more changes will be needed.

Why is buffing the way to go? I think it's more important to understand that.

It is also a glaring reflection of game mechanics and the mass amount of duping that allows casters and ranged characters to have superior DPS to melee classes. Thus the trinity is offset.

[Qhualor]

Early testing on our end suggests that the barbarian changes as presented will probably make barbarians overpowered and when we hit Lamannia I suspect the player feedback will indicate we will need to dial them back. If Paladin feedback has taught us anything it is that players tend to underestimate the cumulative power increase of a lot of smaller changes.

Sev~

Biggest one I see is heavy armored barbarians that dress like fighters, but with a lot more DPS. This isn't a class OP problem though. I've done a 180 after coming to this realization.

Heh, cumulative power increase of a lot of smaller changes. You mean like variables and build flexibility that forum mathematicians won't include in their formulas?

[Skeen]

I can't tell if your post is serious or sarcastic? Occult Slayer has always been a more defensive minded tree, which is why he is lacking in the DPS department.

I was being serious; he said staying alive is not a problem for current Barbs but he uses more heal amp than I have available to me, silver flame pots, and I saw DDO store heal pots on the hot bar too. Is that on a 3x completionist life? Should being in a defensive tree still require all these extra sources of heals? If he was in FB we may be able to say "well he is in an offensive tree so it's his fault", but I know Pally and Bards aren't using silver flame pots when they are in their offensive tree and still have better DPS. I don't even want to touch on needing to play a dwarf and use CON to damage as a means to say alive. There should be better synergy between Barbarians and their favored race, Half-Orc.

Many have already said it before, Barbs can only DPS, make them the clear DPS leader without question. Make Barbs able to stay alive while they DPS, not swing a couple times jump out, hop round chugging pots, un-rage, cast displacement and other buffs, and then try to get back to the fight before a little Bard has finished off all the baddies. The other top DPS classes have more options available to them besides DPS.

[axel15810]

Biggest one I see is heavy armored barbarians that dress like fighters, but with a lot more DPS.

This is a problem. Figher level for barbs is crazy powerful since for 1 level of fighter you get haste boost, heavy armor proficiency AND an extra feat. Hard to imagine a capstone could compete with that.

[axel15810]

Do I smell a pally nerf in the future?

I hope so. Devs definitely went overboard with pally DPS.

[Grailhawk]

Heh, cumulative power increase of a lot of smaller changes. You mean like variables and build flexibility that forum mathematicians won't include in their formulas?

Math has been saying Paladins are too strong for a long time, the dev's just admitted Paladins are too strong how the can a rational person take that admission and use it as a dig on math.

[Takllin]

Math has been saying Paladins are too strong for a long time, the dev's just admitted Paladins are too strong how the can a rational person take that admission and use it as a dig on math.

You are assuming that you are dealing with a rational person. Remember variables

[Monkey-Boy]

. . .how can a rational person take that admission and use it as a dig on math.

Because said person isn't rational.

Many simply aren't objective, do you remember all of Shade's nonsense from 5 years about about a GS Greataxe user out DPSing dual Khopesh?

[Qhualor]

Math has been saying Paladins are too strong for a long time, the dev's just admitted Paladins are too strong how the can a rational person take that admission and use it as a dig on math.

I always conflict with math when in game playing always proves otherwise. I've played paladin since the improvement and grouped with many of them from pugs to actual good players that I know. Paladins are about where they should be with dps and I have never come across one that appeared OP. People are barking up the wrong tree. Its Swashbucklers and to an extent with some builds, SWF, is OP. I'm more concerned with barbs being King of the Hill over Swashbucklers than paladins.

[Monkey-Boy]

I always conflict with math when in game playing always proves otherwise.

Nonsense.

[Takllin]

I was being serious; he said staying alive is not a problem for current Barbs but he uses more heal amp than I have available to me, silver flame pots, and I saw DDO store heal pots on the hot bar too. Is that on a 3x completionist life? Should being in a defensive tree still require all these extra sources of heals? If he was in FB we may be able to say "well he is in an offensive tree so it's his fault", but I know Pally and Bards aren't using silver flame pots when they are in their offensive tree and still have better DPS. I don't even want to touch on needing to play a dwarf and use CON to damage as a means to say alive. There should be better synergy between Barbarians and their favored race, Half-Orc.

Many have already said it before, Barbs can only DPS, make them the clear DPS leader without question. Make Barbs able to stay alive while they DPS, not swing a couple times jump out, hop round chugging pots, un-rage, cast displacement and other buffs, and then try to get back to the fight before a little Bard has finished off all the baddies. The other top DPS classes have more options available to them besides DPS.

It is a defensive tree for Barbarians. It should in no way be on the same level as a Paladin or Fighter defensive tree. What is the point in having seperate classes if they all, more or less, have the same abilities?

Also you don't need to be a dwarf and use CON for damage to stay alive...he just chose that route to play.

Half Orc does have synergy with Barbarian....

So, what it sounds like you are saying, is that you want your barbarian to be like a bard...then play a bard.

Also, to the people talking about heavy plate. Look at what heavy plate they are wearing, and try to understand why someone would want to wear that. then you will see the issues...

[Takllin]

I always conflict with math when in game playing always proves otherwise. I've played paladin since the improvement and grouped with many of them from pugs to actual good players that I know. Paladins are about where they should be with dps and I have never come across one that appeared OP. People are barking up the wrong tree. Its Swashbucklers and to an extent with some builds, SWF, is OP. I'm more concerned with barbs being King of the Hill over Swashbucklers than paladins.

As someone who has played a pure capped Paladin, from my game experience and those of my friends who also play similar Paladin builds, it is a unanimous decision that they are OP and lead the melee DPS charts. All THF builds of different races.

For reference these same people have played Swashbucklers, Centered Kensai, Monkchers, Shiradi, etc. all the OP FotM builds. Paladin is an upgraded version of the Centered Kensai in everyway.

[Qhualor]

As someone who has played a pure capped Paladin, from my game experience and those of my friends who also play similar Paladin builds, it is a unanimous decision that they are OP and lead the melee DPS charts. All THF builds of different races.

Your experiences are different from mine. Im not seeing Paladins practically soloing EE content in a 6 man group like I do with Swashbucklers. I even grouped once with a SWF pure fighter in EE Madstone that was doing almost all of the work. It was amazing to watch as the rest of us pretty much were just following along.

[Takllin]

Nevermind, not wasting my time anymore. Worthless cause.

[CaptainSpacePony]

Early testing on our end suggests that the barbarian changes as presented will probably make barbarians overpowered and when we hit Lamannia I suspect the player feedback will indicate we will need to dial them back. If Paladin feedback has taught us anything it is that players tend to underestimate the cumulative power increase of a lot of smaller changes.

Sev~

So very true

[Blackheartox]

I will be perfectly honest as someone whos playing a barb in ee currently with those changes on a character that tbh is a bit over the top with plifes gear and tomes.
I tried fr bereserker and occult.
Benefit of occult is the fun you have when you are in ee adq and see those casters knock themselfs while they are unable to dance you.

Benefit of berserker is a bit slightly more dps, a useless capstone and way more need to be careful about cc, which includes having finger rdy on pin or using ioun/ee jeweled etc.

What i felt in both barb trees, being con based of course and with maxed hp/prr lifes is that i dont lack survival.
I really dont, i have enough survival to handle most ees and i can survive on silver fl pots alone.
(even if i pulled orange alert, red is a bit hard and i tend to use silver flame and store pots)
Its not cheap on the long run, and its worse off then others, but i dont mind the lack of proper cheap selfhealing but i mind the dps.
For me barb should be a top of the top dps that is crushing his foes, not someone who cant land the killing blow with sorcs pales centerd junk bards or palies in party.
I have a hard time landing killing blows with 10 stacks of blitz.
I mean i might be a horribad player who doesnt know how to land that killing blow, but barb currently just lacks dps for my
taste.
Survival could stay the same, but dps needs a boost, above all others.
A wolf, a bard, a paladin.
Its sad as someone who plays from 2009 to see those outdps a fullybetterthenthemgeared barb.
I want those times where a esos barb was king back!!
And a dual kopesh rogue can be a temporary king for a while til he died of unneeded aggro

I mean its not promoting playstyle i play since i will tr out of barb tonight.
ITs for the sake of people who love that class.
I personally was always a monk player and i was ok with it that my only tool back in the day was stuning fist and tod.
What they did to monks with encha revamp, then bards, then palies is a bit silly.